MUST READ: Reviving What? by Merle Weaver

Amen, I agree. The "nationalism" we often feel as Americans isn't Biblical in its origins. Neither is our feel good interpretation of American history that sees this nation as ever haven been Christian. It's ultimately carnal, and worldly.

Hey Frankie, my Scottish brother!

Nope, not going to Indie. For the time being, one revival conference per year. I'm poor and have limited vacation time :-)

Yes, I met Brian very briefly while at Barnsdall. He seemed like a really nice guy. I spent more time interacting with the associate pastor, whose name escapes me at the present.

And while there were many biblical principles and concepts followed in the foundation of America, for which we are thankful, it is not a christian nation, but a kingdom of this world. The foundation of Masonic influence5 and tools of the flesh and rebellion, which God no doubt, allowed and even used, still do not make this nation christian in either foundation or purpose.

[i]The foundation of Masonic influence5...[/i]

There is a giant statue of the Quaker, and disciple of George Fox, that is, William Penn, that sits atop city Hall in Philadelphia.

His prayer, or one that is attributed to him, for the city that he founded, is on a plaque in two places on the grounds of city hall.

In the book [i]Christianity and the American Commonwealth[/i] there is a lengthy qoutation which purports to be from the "chapter of laws adopted by the Quaker colony of Pennsylvania".

Following is a portion of that qoutation:

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God, and ye good of mankind, is the reason and end of government, and therefore government in itself is a venerable ordinance of God; and forasmuch as it is principally desired and intended by the proprietary and governor, and the freedom of the province of Pennsylvania, and territories thereunto belonging, to make and establish such laws as shall best preserve true Christians and civil liberty, in opposition to any unchristian, licentious, and unjust practises, whereby God may have his due, Caesar his due, and the people their due, and insolency and licentiousness on the other, so that the best and firmest foundation may be laid for the present and future happiness both of the governor and people of this province..."

- [i]from Christianity and the American Commonwealth, pgs 90-91[/i]

Not too long ago I remember a huge banner(or something like that) that was draped down the side of the Masonic Temple on Arch street that is across from city hall. It made a statement, or something similar to it, that at the foundation of America is FreeMasonry.

I'm by no means a historian or even qualified to say, except I suppose the truth of that, and the extent of it, may depend on where you look and whose telling the history.

ChrisJD wrote:

I'm by no means a historian or even qualified to say, except I suppose the truth of that, and the extent of it, may depend on where you look and whose telling the history.

I'm no means a student of history either, but I have read some of the letters written by several of the foundational fathers (these can be found at the Library of Congress website where they have scanned them in and made them available to the public: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/index.html). What I have found is that the foundational fathers were a diverse group, like any secular group of men. Some of them (I believe) were true Christians, some Deists, some Masons, some Unitarians. Some claimed to be “true” Christians, but in their writings it is clear they rejected the deity of Christ and his miracles (including the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc).

So, to claim that the foundational fathers were all Christian men who had strong faith is just not true. (This is the idea you get listening to some of these “Our Nation is a Christian Nation” people/historians). Yes, some where true believers and had faith, but many only went to church because it was the proper thing to do at the time (a proper gentleman went to church if he wanted any hope of being involved in politics), and this was evident in their writings (either directly by the words they say, or indirectly by their associations, i.e. with the masons for example).

I agree with Greg, yes, God used these men and God even used their rebellion against England (even if it was an unchristian thing to do), just like God has used men throughout history regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, believer or unbeliever, soft of heart or hard of heart. But our loyalty must remain with our true King and Lord, Jesus Christ, and His Kingdom, which will never end. The time is soon coming when Christ will return and dispose of all these earthly kingdoms, and all that will remain is Christ’s Kingdom. Let us build then, on the foundation of Jesus Christ, a work that will remain, not of wood, hay, and stubble, but of gold, silver, and precious stones, that will withstand the test of fire.

I don't have my old notes in front of me right now, but according to what I remember from my church history class in seminary, the percentage of people in this country that openly professed to being a Christian at the time of America's founding was estimated to be somewhere between 10-15%. Once many of the early colonists left England, they left more behind than theiry loyalty to the crown.

Hi bdcutler,

I've read some things from that site also.

"What I have found is that the foundational fathers were a diverse group, like any secular group of men."

And a rather large group also.

This link [i]claims to list[/i] the religous affiliation of many of the 'founding fathers'.

[url=http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html#Declaration]http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html#Declaration[/url]

Even though the site suggests as many as 204 individuals that could be mentioned as 'founding fathers', it sugests also that even that list is restrictive and could include more.

I think, for instance, of the founder of Pennsylvania that I mentioned in my response, the quaker, William Penn.

"So, to claim that the foundational fathers were all Christian men who had strong faith is just not true."

I hope I did not imply that. My response was to the mention about freemasonry.

Merle wrote:
Brothers and sisters let us turn from seeking God for what we will get out if it, or how it will bless us. Let us lament the condition of the church, our lack or fire, salt, and godliness, and the millions of lost people in the “church”. Let us expect to suffer and die in this cause. Let us seek one thing only, His Glory, and His purpose.

[i]Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: [b]forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:[/b][/i]
Luke 6.37

[i]So if you are offering your gift on the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. [b]FIRST go and BE RECONCILED with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.[/i][/b]
Mt 5:23-24

[i]Finally, [b]be YE all of one-mind[/b], compassionate, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: not rendering evil for evil, or insult for insult; but instead blessing; knowing that to this were you called, that you may inherit a blessing.[/i]
1 Peter 3.8-9

[i]If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, [b]that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.[/b][/i]
Philippians 2.1-2

[i]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, [b]they were all with one accord[/b] in one place.[/i]
Acts 2.1

The Glory of God fell when [i][b]they were all with one accord[/b] in one place.[/i] God didn't do that, they made a decision to be in one accord in one place. I truly believe that when WE choose to do that, the Glory of God will fall and all in our dwelling place will come (RUN) and to see what God has done!! They will FINALLY want what we have! He who has ears, let him hear!

All praise, honor, and glory be unto our God forever and ever!

[i]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, [b]they were all with one accord[/b] in one place.[/i]
Acts 2.1

I just wanted to add the 120 in the upper room was truly a miracle!

120 people ALL in ONE ACCORD? You KNOW that was God!
:-P :-) :-D ;-)

I have been debating this issue for sometime within myself. To show more of the opposing side, merely for its representation and where they draw strength (that this is a Christian nation): see wallbuilders.com for a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Reviewing it, while probably not an exhaustive view of that position, will certainly give a broad picture.

Hi everyone,

Since there was s mention of the type of revival that those at SI are seeking, I thought of this qoute from the Revival Hymn by Duncan Campbell:

“Mr.Campbell, there must be anything between 2 and 300 people at the police station. They’re gathered there and
some are on their knees, now I can't understand this...” Now he wasn't in the church, you see. But here a crowd of men and women, from a neighboring village, 5 and 6 miles away were so moved by God that they found themselves moving to the police station because the constable there was a God-fearing and well-saved man."

[i]... moving to the police station because the constable there was a God-fearing and well-saved man[/i]

He must have been part of the peacekeeping remnant.

:-)

Hi Frank, no clubs either?

What do they arrest men with, good looks and a smile?

:-)