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Please alleviate a panging question

J
Jdl Oct 1, 2009

Hey guys, hope everyone is doin well...there's a question that has been panging me, and I was hoping you guys could shed some much needed light on it for me...

1- Apart from Christ, God is going to send people to hell because they broke His laws...what's confusing me, tho, is that we are unable to meet the standard of perfection that He demands...Someone said that if that's the case, then the least He could do as a loving God is send His son...but why would He still judge people based on laws he knew they couldn't meet in their own strength? If I made a puppet with a 5ft arm, and placed a box 10ft away from it, and then demanded it to reach the box, and if it couldn't (which it can't), and I send it to hell because of that, is it kinda the same thing? Please help me with this confusion, it's killing me

J
Jdl Oct 1, 2009

hey guys, just wanted to add one more...hope you don't mind...

-Why would God create the forbidden tree in the garden and offer Adam the choice if He knew he was going to fail and as the result of that, millions upon millions of people would be condemned? Weren't they enjoying fellowship with each other before that happened?

S
sojourner7 Oct 1, 2009

GOD is infinitely holy and righteous and the
law is HIS moral standard HE has established.
GOD's Word is the standard we must adhere to
and abide by if we are to please HIM.
Yes, GOD in HIS great and everlasting love
sent HIS own Son who lived a perfect righteous
life and fulfilled the law by HIS obedience.
GOD provided the atonement and sacrifice
necessary for our salvation. HE offers HIS
grace and HIS Son for all. HE desires all men
to repent and be saved. So GOD is always just
even when HE must be the JUDGE!!

E
enid Oct 1, 2009

Ever read the book of Job? With all the things that took place in Job's life, God never gave Job an answer as to why everything bad happened to him.

Besides, God knows we don't think He's 'fair'.

L
Leo_Grace Oct 1, 2009

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but our answering your questions will not solve your problem. If you want to understand God and His requirements of us, then read the Bible.

K
KingJimmy Oct 1, 2009


what's confusing me, tho, is that we are unable to meet the standard of perfection that He demands..

God's demand for perfection is designed to do two things.

1) To cause us to see that all of mankind has rejected God's demands, and is rebellious by nature and in deed. All have sinned and come short of God's glory. As a result, all deserve as criminals to be eternally punished, because God is a just and holy God.

2) Once realizing that because of our rebellion, we cannot meet up to His standard no matter how hard we might try, this is designed to cause us to see our hopeless state without Christ dying in our place, and to cause us to flee to Him alone for salvation. Christ alone has met for us the standard God demands. Romans 5 makes it clear, that because "of the obedience of the One" we are made in right standing with God.

Once we have sinned and broken God's law, we forever become below God's standard. Even if we only sinned just once in our lives, we will instantly accrue a sin-debt, a debt that is beyond our ability to ever pay for. Which is why we need Christ to forgive us our debt, and atone for our rebellion.

R
rainydaygirl Oct 1, 2009

JDL wrote:Why would God create the forbidden tree in the garden and offer Adam the choice if He knew he was going to fail and as the result of that, millions upon millions of people would be condemned? Weren't they enjoying fellowship with each other before that happened?
+++
Let me ask you this, that girl that you mentioned in the other thread, the one you would some day like to marry. Would you really want her to love you only because she was forced to. Would you want her to daily spend time with you and care for you only because she had to? It would be a pretty empty relationship for you unless she loved you for who you are. God wanted to have relationship with His children, He wanted fellowship that was back and forth.

God did not set up Adam and Eve, they were given a choice in the garden. They could do one of two things, they could submit their will unto what the Lord had told them, thereby demonstrating their love for Him by obeying Him, or they could chose to be Lord of their own life and eat of the tree they were forbidden to eat of. It was not just about disobeying God, it was about rejecting Him and choosing their own way. When Eve took the fruit by her actions she was rejecting God and the life He had for them so that she could be in control of her own decisions and her own life, she would be wise. And Adam followed her actions.Genesis 3:4-6 Remember also that God never told them not to eat of the tree of Life, they could have chosen to do that as well, but they rejected Him. Eve made her decision to allow the serpent to deceive her.

Jdl if I may share with you, your focus is so much on self that I think you are allowing your heart to be hardened to what God has for you. Get in the Bible, seek Him and He will answer you, if you do so truly wanting to know Him. God does want good things for His children but He also wants and desires our whole hearts. Think about it would you really want that young lady that you spoke of to only love you because you were forcing her to?????

just some things to consider
rdg

Edit: I want to add amen to what Leo posted and shared as well!

I
IWantAnguish Oct 1, 2009

Paul clearly states the reason for the Law in the letter to the Romans.

It is to be used as a school teacher to bring us to Christ, through conviction of sin, then repentance, then faith in Christ.

T
TaylorOtwell Oct 1, 2009

As other posters have noted, we have to ask what the underlying purpose of the Law was. It wasn't designed to function as a system of salvation. It is a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ, as Paul writes in Galatians. Of course, under the Old Covenant, the sacrificial system was part of the Law that pointed the Israelites towards the need for atonement and propitiation.

So, I guess in a sense you could say that God will not solely cast people into Hell because they broke the Law, but because they rejected the Christ the Law pointed them to.

With care in Christ...

sermonindex Oct 1, 2009

Jdl asked

...but why would He still judge people based on laws he knew they couldn't meet in their own strength?
KJ explained
Christ alone has met for us the standard God demands. Romans 5 makes it clear, that because "of the obedience of the One" we are made in right standing with God.
I would like to add that unless you [i][b]really think about it, and come to understand it[/i][/b] - that is, that to enter into the resurrection life of Christ, one has to consider oneself dead because of sin - the natural mind (that is, the fallen mind) will continue to grasp at the hope of meeting God's demand for righteousness, in its own strength.... like I have the feeling you are still doing.

The 'rest' that faith is supposed to bring us into, is the kind of rest that a person gets when they die. It's in a completely different category from the rest of being naturally successful.

In other words, when Paul writes of our being baptised into His death, he is not meaning a kind of notional death which God recognises because we 'believe' in Him - despite our continuing failures; He is meaning an actual end to the life of self, sin, and fascination with the world, so that we [u]actually[/u] receive the LIFE of CHRIST and He lives through us, as much as we live through Him.

I'm short of time, so here are some scriptures to chew on.

Romans 6
Col 2:11 - 14
1 John 4:9
John 17:16 - 23

Unless you believe these scriptures, their promises will be lost on you, and your natural reasoning will prevent you from entering in to them. It is a supernatural work to believe - I fully appreciate that - but without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Col 3:1 - 3

God bless you.

R
rainydaygirl Oct 1, 2009

Alive-to-God wrote:It is a supernatural work to believe - I fully appreciate that - but without faith, it is impossible to please God.
.......

I agree, with what you shared here. I have been studying faith with some others recently and thought I would share this passage from a book we have been reading from. Lots of really good truth has been shared with you Jdl, please consider that perhaps its time to put all the questioning(doubting) aside and seek God with a humble heart, chose to come to Him by faith that what He has said is truth. Come to Him with no other preconceived thoughts or desire other then to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!

Faith! What Is It?

“I live by Faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”

“The righteous will live by Faith.”

“According to your Faith will it be done…”

“If you have Faith as small as a mustard seed…”

“Have Faith in God…”

“We live by Faith and not by sight…”

“Will he find FAITH on the earth?”

To “live by Faith in the Son of God”—THAT is the Christian life! So what is Faith? Faith is what we BELIEVE! Faith is active. It is to live with every fiber of your being turned fully toward God in every issue of life. It has nothing to do with what we know in the intellectual sense and everything to do with what we BELIEVE in an ACTIVE sense. Faith is to turn to Jesus of Nazareth in everything—every accomplishment, every failure, every disappointment, and every sin and emptiness that you would ever see in your life. Faith has to do with what we BELIEVE from the heart in the midst of stress and strain and difficulty.

Beholding Him, turning to Him, and resting your case in Jesus as the Answer to the Father’s every question and the satisfaction of the Father’s every demand of you—that is Faith. Holding up Jesus in every circumstance of life as the Answer and the Solution and the Anchor that holds within the veil.

Faith in Christ is the Power unto Salvation! It’s us believing from the heart the Good News of what God has done to redeem a fallen humanity. It’s what God has done to restore everything that Adam lost—and so much more! But, we’ve got to believe it in order to access it.

Call on the Name of the Lord and turn your face toward Him. He will hear your heart cry and come swiftly, healing your wounds and changing your life. He will make you a man or woman after His own Heart, and you’ll see Him and trust Him and worship Him all your days. That kind of trust and adoration is God’s heart for you and is your inheritance in Christ Jesus. Take hold of all that God has in store for you, by this glorious Faith in the Risen Son. Let the work of Jesus Christ and Faith in Him as a Redeemer of men’s souls well up within you as a ray of Hope in spite of anything else that would ever happen in your life.

with care
rdg

sermonindex Oct 2, 2009


rdg said

'... chose to come to Him by faith that what He has said is truth.'
I agree with this too, but, I think only the Lord Himself can prompt a person to take the Bible as His word, as part of their challenge to faith - or as their only challenge to faith.

It is much more common, and in keeping with 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', that a person first begins to believe because of the declaration of the word of God (whether the gospel, or exposition of verses), which another person speaks out, who already believes for themselves, (and might even claim to 'know' that word is true.

It is as the word of life is proclaimed verbally - and God has made it so - the foolishness of preaching - that others feel the Holy Spirit working in them, to bring forth fresh faith. It is by the hearers' realisation of being stirred up to believe, that the hearer can discern it is God Himself who is speaking, calling, drawing them to Himself. Then, they can believe (or not believe).

However, God knows exactly how much a person has understood, and holds them accountable, ultimately, for their response, whichever it is.

Everything in the piece you posted is true for the believer who knows they are in relationship with God, but it could be a bondage to the person who is still dead in trespasses and sin, partly because there is a spiritual blindness which can only be broken when a person is born again,(John 3:3, 11, 19, 36).

I offer these thoughts as one who struggled for many years with 'faith', (rather than one who is splitting hairs), until I understood I was required only to 'believe' what God had challenged me [i]personally[/i] to believe. Step by step, as He revealed His faithfulness to me, and cornered me over issue after issue, I simply [i][b]had[/i][/b] to choose Him, until I trusted His character unreservedly, regardless of what He asked of me, and despite my feelings or outward circumstances.


G
ginnyrose Oct 2, 2009

but why would He still judge people based on laws he knew they couldn't meet in their own strength?

That is the point - exactly! We need to [i][b]feel[/b][/i] a need for God. He wants our fellowship and he wants us to feel a need for it as well. He wants the desire to be mutual. So, he had to make it so we will know you can not function well without Him.

JDL, it may take you a lllllloooonnnngggg time to understand this point and to get a grip on it. There are a few things about God you may never understand in this life but don't allow that to interfere in your quest to know God. God is infinite and you are finite. If you could understand all the ways of God then he would not be infinite nor God. You want to serve a God that is much bigger then you, don't you?

Blessings,
ginnyrose

E
elharris Oct 2, 2009

The whole purpose of God's laws, be they the Law of Moses, or the Law of Christ, is to prevent man from harming his neighbor. You know, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

THAT IS THE PERFECTION, GOD IS SEEKING, that people do not go out and hurt others. Is there some reason we can't do that?

The whole context of "be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect", is in regards to loving our enemies and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Again is there some reason man can't do that?

Love covers a multitude of sins. We may mess up in lot's of areas, and not be "perfect", in every word, thought and deed, but we can still love our neighbors as ourselves, and we can still love our enemies.

1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,(in service to God) and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:


That is what God wants us to strive to be perfect at. And since he knows that we won't always be perfect, then he made confession and forgivness of sin available. We fight the good fight primarily to walk in the love of God towards others. We may be all kinds of messed up and imperfect in areas, but we CAN walk in love towards others, and repent and confess not only to God, but say SORRY, to those individuals we might harm on occasion by our actions.

The Word describes TWO resurrections. The first resurrection is for those who for all time, have looked to the Christ, both OT and NT believers. And they are called "the elect" and are for a special purpose regarding God's plans for end of this world, before then next one begins.

But please read about the SECOND RESURRECTION, the last resurrection, when all the dead who were not of Christ are raised.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(If you want to know who these people are that were thrown into the lake of fire BEFORE the devil read the context of Mat 25:41)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: [b]and another book was opened, which is the book of life:[/b]

Now think about this. If no one who did not believe in Christ was going to be saved, then why open the book of life here? Surely God is not as unrighteous as the Church has made him out to be, in their teaching.


[b]and the dead were judged[/b] out of those things which were written in the books, [b]according to their works.[/b]


Just because people have not believed on Christ, or known the true God, does not mean they are damned. They will be judged according to their works. Many will in fact be saved in the end. God will take their whole life into account.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: [b]and they were judged every man according to their works.[/b]

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 [b]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life[/b] was cast into the lake of fire.


Now read what Paul said about the Gentiles which knew not God and did not have the Word or the Law.


Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, [b]do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:[/b]

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


There have been many people throughout time, who did not know the truth about God. But in their very nature, they walked in love and honesty towards their neighbor. God is not going to cast these people into hell. The main theme of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was to love God AND love your neighbor as yourself. God will judge men on how they treated their neighbors, how they treated other men.

Even at a time, when men have the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ, many times they have had a really bad experience with evil, mean, hypodritical Christians and Churches. They have been offended in God because of God's representitives. Yet these people lived lives of loving and helping others.

WOE unto those Christians that offended these little ones that originally believed in Jesus. It is better that a milstone was hung around their necks and they were thrown into the utermost part of the sea.

God is not unrighteous. God will NOT cast all men just because they did not believe in Jesus into Hell. Does that mean everyone is saved OH NO NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Many that believed on Christ and called him Lord, will spend eternity in hell, because of their evil inclinations towards others.

The bottom line with God is this.

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

There are going to be people who went to Church their whole lives and didn't miss a service, roasting in fire for eternity. There are going to be people who never steped foot in a Church, rejoicing with Christ in the new heaven and the new earth.

Read Matt 25 because that's really what it's all about in the very end. How you treat others.

You are in a lot of bondage, due to some misconceptions which are very common in Christianity.

You seem like a person who really wants to love others, and turn them also to this righteousness. This attack you are under is not from above, but is from beneith, and from the God of this world. Break free of these chains, by choosing to see what is truly important to God and Jesus Christ. "By THIS shall all men know that you are my disciples, by the LOVE that you have one to another."

Doctrines and teachings are important, but the end of the commandment is LOVE out of a pure heart...We of course seek knowledge and the TRUTH also, but the truth outside of love, will get us no where in the end. And if you commit yourself to just learn to walk in love and seek the truth, God will see to it that you have the truth. And LOVE NEVER FAILS.

Regards,
El Harris


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