Tongues - flesh or spirit

Can you choose when to give a word of wisdom or knowledge?
Can you choose when to have uncommone faith?
Can you choose when to heal or to do a miracle?
Can you choose when to take the gift of prophecy?
Can you choose when to discern spirits?

Last question:
Are you deciding when you will speak or pray in tongues?

No one can just say, "I'm going to pray in tongues now", as much as they can say that they will take any of the other gifts of the Spirit now; if you do, all you will be truly doing is babbling.

If you, yourself are inducing the so called "tongue", it is not of the Spirit.

The true gift of tongues is like a cup of water filled to the brim (no more room for water), then one comes along and puts a refreshing ice cube into the cup; the water can't help but to over flow and spill out.
The same with the gift of tongues, when praying and becoming filled with His Spirit, you will find yourself overflowing and the gift will spill out of you (if you let it).

Amen, for who does the choosing of the place, time and which gift is to be used for upbuilding of the Body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Not as I will.

In Christ: Phillip

It says they spoke as the spirit gave them words, they spoke themselves as i read it, the source was the spirit, but i think it is we who speak the words, i am very skeptic to anyone who says "i can not control" what is happening, the spirit is also the spirit of self control, I dont think ever the spirit "forces" us to do things we can not control or have a saying in.

I'm not able to give a fine-sounding argument as to why one who is baptized in the Holy Ghost may decide to pray in tongues as they will but I can offer my testimony.

There are times when i feel an urgent need to pray and I don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. At those times, I let the Spirit of God help me by praying in tongues [See I Cor 14: 13-15]. Most times, i end up praying in my understanding, what He wanted! At other times, i'm done praying and i still don't have a foggy idea what that was about! I simply trust that some day here or in eternity, i may find out.

Do let's be careful not to force our understanding of Scripture as binding on others.

IT IS WELL.

Logic

Just some thoughts, I think there are various indications in scripture that God gives the autonomy to the "gift-bearer" :-

1) The gifts of the Spirit are just that "gifts". They are [b]given[/b] to the recipient.

2) Moses used his God-given gifts to strike the Rock to produce water instead of speaking to it as God had instructed. It still "worked" despite Moses having disobeyed God, demonstrating that Moses had a autonomy in the exercise of his gifts even to the point of disobedience.

2) The prophet Elisha asked his servant Gehazi(!) what could be done for the Shunamite woman that had kindly received him and acted on Gehazi's suggestion.

3) Paul instructed people to use the gift of tongues in an orderly fashion within meetings, demonstrating that the gift-bearer has autonomy over the gift. Obviously some people were using their gifts in a fashion and time that wasn't appropriate. The inappropriate use didn't come from God, but was rather misuse of the autonomy that God had previously given. Paul didn't mention anything about the manifestation itself being false at this point.

I think God gives autonomy together with the gift but expects it to be used within certain guidelines. A bit like giving your credit card to a child...

PassingThru

DeepThinker wrote:
I take it that you've never experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit with the speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance"?

To be baptized is the same as being overwhelmed with Him; immersed in Him.
I have been overwhelmed with Him; immersed in Him many times, but I have not been blessed to be used with the gift of tongues. However, I have been used with the gift of healings, the gift of word of wisdom, and the gift of faith.

I say that because your only ministering to one audience and that being those who do not believe in the physical manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit through individuals. They may "say" they believe it but wrap it up so tight with regulations that no one dare manifest in their congregations.

As for "babblings" as you call it, the praying in tongues alone can be uttered by the will of the individual.

Do not abused the gift by fabricating one untill He happens to use you with His gift; that is not how it should be done.

Now here is a question, are those of us who have received the Holy Spirit and have spoken in tongues, and we pray in secret a lot of "babbling", have we received the Holy Spirit or another spirit?

My friend truly has the gift of tongues, but he may go a month with out praying in a tongue, because it is up to the Holy Spirit as to when.

One time, when he was new with the gift, he was praying in a tongue, then the Holy Spirit stopped after a while, but my friend wanted to keep going, so he just started to make the same sounds as before.
The Holy Spirit stopped him right there and said; "Now stop that, what do you think your doing?"

My friend thought that he would actually do something real & valid when he made the same sounds with out the Holy Spirit; but with out the Spirit, the sound is really nothing but babble, babble, babble...Undomy bowtiewho stolemyhonda...etc...

What if one stood up and spoke in Zulu and you didn't know Zulu, all your hearing is clicks and gibberish, how do you know if it's genuine or not?

However, if you are unducing the tongue, then it is of the flesh.

hmmhmm wrote:
It says they spoke as the spirit gave them words, they spoke themselves as i read it, the source was the spirit, but i think it is we who speak the words

i am very skeptic to anyone who says "i can not control" what is happening, the spirit is also the spirit of self control.
I dont think ever the spirit "forces" us to do things we can not control or have a saying in.

[Edit: Logic, I see you responded while I was writing the below, and it appears you have made some clarification to what you are trying to say. I'll leave my post up, even though it doesn't really apply anymore.]

Let's assume the gifts of the Spirit are, as you state, out of the receiver's control. Let's read Paul's letter to the Corithain church and see what conclusions we come up with this idea as our basis:

1 Corithians 14:26-40:

How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

There are three conclusions here:

1.\t[b]The Corinthian church really are operating in the gifts of the Spirit.[/b] If this is the case then what is Paul doing here? What is he trying to correct here when the operation of a gift is out of the receiver’s control? We could try to figure it out, but any conclusion is so absurd, I don't think we even want to go any further here.

2.\t[b]The Corinthian church are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit (i.e. they are “in the flesh”);[/b] Paul, realizing this, encourages them to operate “in the flesh” in a more orderly fashion, in lieu of addressing the problem (“they are in the flesh”).

3.\t[b]The Corinthian church are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit (i.e. they are “in the flesh”);[/b] but Paul believes they really are operating in the gifts of the Spirit. This is because he doesn’t realize that when we are really operating in the gifts of the Spirit, we do so out of our own control. If he only knew this fundamental tenet of Christianity he could plainly see that there is no way they are operating in the gifts of the Spirit, and he could address the real issue here.

I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader why each of these conclusions is absurd.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Again what is Paul trying to say here?

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

I’m having a difficult time understanding what point Paul is attempting to address here. After all, the gift “just happens” it’s out of the receiver’s control, right? How can it be subject to the prophet?

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Again, why this exhortation? What is this correction about?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? Came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

What are the commandments of the Lord about, if indeed, the gift is outside of the receiver's control?

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

I don't know, but I suspect the thesis is wrong. The gifts are indeed under the control of the receiver. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to who he will (1 Corinthians 12:11), but the spirits of the prophet is subject to the prophets (1 Corinthians 14:32).

Did Jonah go directly to Ninavah when given the word of prophecy, or was the spirit of the prophet under his control?

This thread was started with the intention to stir up controversy among brothers. Only the severely ignorant would have expected anything less than doctrinal strife with this topic. What exactly did you hope to gain by this - that those who stand on opposite sides of the "speaking in tongues is the manifestation of baptism by the Spirit" belief would all come together in unity under the wisdom of your insight? This is sin. This is the pride of one gleefully rubbing against the pride of others to generate conflict. Shame on you.

Theophila wrote:

There are times when i feel an urgent need to pray and I don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. At those times, I let the Spirit of God help me by praying in tongues [See I Cor 14: 13-15].

When one feels an urgent need to pray and you don't have a foggy idea as to what for or why. that would be the Lord just wanting you to talk to Him.
If you don't know what to pray for, then it is not a time for tongues, petition or intercessory and the like; it is the time for you to ask God, "what"?

The thing is, when you come to God in the way you described (just felt the urge to pray), are you full of the spirit as to be overwhelmed at the time when you come to Him?
Only when you are full of the Holy Spirit is when His spirit comes on you to pray in a tongue.
God can't use an empty vesel.

Meditate on Him and His Word which is in you and He will lead you in the conversation (prayer) and mayby fill you and lead you to a tongue.

Most times, i end up praying in my understanding, what He wanted! At other times, i'm done praying and i still don't have a foggy idea what was that was about! I simply trust that some day here or in eternity, i may find out.

I always feel that we shouldn't leave prayer feeling like "what was that was about".

Would you think it was a good & right thing if the King of a country wanted to talk to you. He brought you over to His country (your birth) and got you into his mansion (salvation), His guard (Holy Spirit) lead you into His chamber just so He may talk with you...
and you left thinking, "what that was about"

wouldn't you think that the King called you into His presence for a purpose?

Do let's be careful not to force our understanding of Scripture as binding on others.

Just because you desire it does not mean the Spirit is leading it.
when we attempt a spiritual thing in a fleshly manner you, yourself are inducing it. We are doing it in the flesh until the Spirit is actually inducing it,

What do you think your doing when the Spirit is not actually initiating the action?
Do not confuse the desire for the spiritual gift as doing it in the spirit.

I do see the sincerity in true Christians, but one may be sincerely wrong.

Just because one desires a spiritual gift, does not mean their actions in attaining it is correct.

Anyone can babble all they want in the sincerity of thinking they are being used with the gift of tongues, but until He actually blesses one with the gift, all will done is babbling nonsense and wasting time with no prayer, nothing being accomplished.

With out the Spirit in action, nothing is done anything "in the spirit", because it was the flesh making the noise from their mouth with no intelligible words (not even spiritually intelligible words).

I desire the gift of tongues also, but I will not make a mockery of the gift by making the sounds (of the gift), hoping for the gift to actually make my sounds to be real.
Anyone can make the sounds of the gift of tongues, but unless the Spirit is behind it, they are only babbling; I will not take part in this.

My friend truly has the gift of tongues, but he may go a month with out praying in a tongue, because it is up to the Holy Spirit as to when.

True story:
One time, when he was new with the gift, he was praying in a tongue, then the Holy Spirit stopped, lifted, ended the tongues after a while.
But my friend wanted to keep going, so he just started to make the same sounds as before.
The Holy Spirit stopped him right there and said; "Now stop that, what do you think your doing?"

My friend thought that he would actually do something real & valid when he made the same sounds with out the Holy Spirit; but with out the Spirit, the sound is really nothing but babble, babble, babble...Undomy bowtiewho stolemyhonda...etc...

Leo_Grace wrote:
This thread was started with the intention to stir up controversy among brothers. Only the severely ignorant would have expected anything less than doctrinal strife with this topic.

It is not for controversy, but conversation.

If anyone else has insight, they may post it here, that we may all learn.

What exactly did you hope to gain by this

- that those who stand on opposite sides of the "speaking in tongues is the manifestation of baptism by the Spirit" belief would all come together in unity under the wisdom of your insight?

This is sin.

This is the pride of one gleefully rubbing against the pride of others to generate conflict.

Shame on you.

The gifts of the Spirit are to be used as the Spirit wills. It is not up to the individual when it comes to using a gift for building up the Church.

However tongues is not given to the believer to be used just as a gift for the Church, but also for the believer to use in prayer and intercession. Praying in the Spirit builds up the believer. The gifts of the Spirit build up the Church. "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself…" (1 Corinthians 14:4).
"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost" (Jude 1:20).

Anyone that is Baptized in the Holy Spirit and that speaks in tongues can pray in tongues anytime that he wants to, because praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit. I pray in tongues every day, as well as pray with my understanding.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:15).

Mike

DeepThinker wrote:

The one who spoke Zulu would interpret the tongue. He would validate the authenticity of the tongue.

Maybe not. On the day of Pentecost there was no interpretation. Every man "heard" their own tongue being spoken of by the Apostles.

First of all, speaking in other tongues does not prove that one has been baptized of the Holy Spirit

That is not scriptural. We have the bible for proof.

The teaching that one receives the Holy Spirit upon receiving Christ into one's heart is recent history and not apostolic. The book of Acts details the account of all those that have received the holy Spirit all spoke in tongues or prophesied.

It's the initial sign that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit.

We get the power to read & understand His Word in a better light, power of boldness in times of fear, powere for deeper worship, power more inspire praise...etc...

The tongues is the least of the benefits of the baptism of the Spirit.

However, people think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time thing.
If you understand baptism correctly, you will know that it is an overwhelming, as being submerged.
The baptism of the Spirit should be an on going thing for every day.

People are praying for revival, and we may as well get used to it now that when people start being filled with the holy Spirit your going to hear them speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

As regards to your friend saying that the Holy Spirit told him to stop saying that, I heard that same voice too and found out it was the lie of the devil.

With my friends case, the Holy Spirit lifted and stopped the gift of tongues, my friend wanted to go on with out the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Why would the devil want to stop you from babbling on & on when the Holy Spirit stopped praying through you in another tongues?

The devil would want you to continue to babble in nonsense, wasting time with nothing being accomplished spiritually.

Please explain that when the Holy Spirit told him to stop when HE stopped is a "lie from the devil"
Please explain this.

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.

Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Leo_Grace wrote:

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

please don't post on this thread any more unless you have some insight which would not be sinnful to post.

Logic wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:

Sshhhhhh, quiet please.

Gal 6:3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Pr 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.
Pr 16:5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
Pr 17:19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin; he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Pr 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

You don't read to well, do you?

please don't post on this thread any more unless you have some insight which would not be sinnful to post.

This is my insight about you and your reason for opening a thread that does nothing but promote strife among brothers regarding a topic that cannot be resolved Scripturally.

Oh I can read much better than you think - I can read past your pretensions.

Ps 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence; [b]whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure[/b].