Perfection & Security

So, would you consider it accurate to say that a "sheep" can become a "goat" and vice-versa perhaps dozens of times in a single day?

Or, to put it another way, someone who comes to Christ be cast out (cf. John 6:37) and re-accepted perhaps dozens of times in a day?

ccrider,

Point taken.

With care in Christ...

ccrider wrote:
Taylor.... this is yet another obvious attempt to start the one millionth rabbit trail that causes more problems than solutions, more angst than edification.

I liken those...as rabblerousers who have not much better to do than endlessly proselytise their theology, and as a natural byproduct.... their own righteousness

If you notice, they stick to mainly one or two topics of theology and rarely go outside their own narrow scope to offer lessons on a variety of theological issues.

The thought of not being able to go with out sin is to go against Scripture. But some who disagree, saying that they must sin because they can't stop need to know that there is freedom from sin.

One thing that seems to stand out in our age as opposed to the past is that propaganda gets so much more credit than it used to.

Propaganda long enough and the undiscerning will believe it, I guess is the hope.

I've just begun to read MacArthur's new book, 'The Jesus You can't Ignore' and he has nailed the problem of the church today, in that it tolerates error for far too long.

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may lift you up in due time. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

ceedub wrote:

Logic and Truthsave, you're wrong, you've been told it umpteen times. You're deceived or you're looking to deceive. Salvation is by grace, something you give lip service to then deny with your propaganda.

You think you can't stop sinning when God says you can by commanding you to stop.

We acknowlege God's command to stop sinning and know He is not a tyrant to command something which we can not do.

I don't say that [b]not[/b] sinning is your salvation, but it is what your suposed to do; not sin.

With your denyng "no sin in your life", your denying that God can do it.
All we say is that God is [b]SO VERY GREAT[/b] that He can do it & does do it; He can keep you from sinning.

We don't deny that we have sin on our record, and we proclaim that God can cleans you from all sin.
God can cleans you from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:7-9)

You are denying this.
Who maight be deceived here?

Nice try.

They say that when wolves fight they jump in, do their damage and then jump out for a time.

That's how heretics are.

They do their damage until the heat is turned up and they are under scrutiny. Then they retreat to the truth for a time and play the passive agressive.

If what you said in your last post was all you'd ever said re the subject, and to that degree, then there wouldn't have been the same response.

There's always been those that boasted in themselves. That's why Paul wrote many verses rebuking such nonsense.

Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ. Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light. The nearer we draw to God, the more we see of His holiness, and the more we repent of our own sinfulness. Repentance is not a one time event, but a daily walk in humility with God. Unless one is humble enough to admit his weakness, he cannot be empowered by the Spirit towards a repentant and holy life, for he continues to wallow in pride and self-deception.

John was speaking to the believers when he said:

[i]1Jn 1:5-2:2 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. [b]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense —Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh. Anyone who claims to be without sin is deceived and has lost all sensitivity to sin in himself.

ccrider wrote:
Hi logic. My post was open ended.

Besides if you think that 'edification' is purely theological then you're mistaken.

You can try to make me look small but all you do is deny the fact of freedom from sin is real.

You rabbelroused your theology about Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs as NOT being a source for correct doctrine and I quote: 'ESPECIALLY for a Christian', then say you regret it after 'further study'. But is there any remorse for stating such a heresy that could have influenced someone wrongly??? Any humility?? I mean you were so convinced of it when you directed it towards the person who used it to rebut you at the time. Yet time and time again you used the SAME books and verses thereof to validate your theology. My observation is that you came right back with your systematic reasoning with the same arrogance that propagated your prior heresy in the first place.

It's obvious that you don't mind sticking your theological neck out to win an argument. That damages credibility. If that's how you originally felt about Psalms et al then obviously their importance to the Word of God for doctrine needed some exploring by you. However, it wasn't explored until after you made the comment three or so months ago. Therefore, I wouldn't trust your own judgment on what topics need exploring.... as exploring the richness of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs and it's significant, proper, and truthful contribution as dictated by the Holy Spirit seemed to elude you up until your revelation based on 'further study'

Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs does in fact have a poetic nature with hyperbole, one must be careful not to take the poetic nature with hyperbole to far.

Anyway, a lot of people use their bias to their own theology to interpret Scripture with out seeing the logical conclusion.
Such as God only condemns people because they are sinners, but then people are born sinners.
Therefore, people are condemned because they are born and not from anything of themselves.
But then some might say that they are condemned for sin, but they sin because they are sinners; they must sin because of it, therefore, they are condemned by inevitability.

The truth is that people are condemned because they are guilty by choice, but if it is that they [b]can not[/b] obey God, then they are not guilty, but condemned for a disability.
Then people say that the only choice for sinners is to sin; that is not a choice, but a necessity.

The theology which I always seem to refute is nonsense, which is why I do it.
You may call it rabbelrousing, but I call it trying to get it through a bias which is unrealistic, nonsense and make God a tyrant, all from a defence from an interpretation of Scriptures.

I wonder how people could interpret Scriptures as God being such, I would think they would find how to interpret Scripture to justify God and not criminalize Him.
All I can figure out is that they say to themselves, "God is God He can do anything, even be an unjust tyrant and still be just and rightous, even though that contradicts reality."

"What's this about ones own righteousness?"

Again, how do you know that my post was directed towards you?

"Some mainly stick to topics which need exploring."

No, these are the topics YOU want to endlessly proselytize and shove forward.

Who are you to determine what needs and what doesn't need explored??

But determining what needs to be explored, who are you to do the same?
If we aren't then why even start new threads?

And those who do start new threads, who are they to determine what needs to be explored?

All I am doing is trying to show the nonsense of some theologies such as I explained above.

I believe you will continue your attempts to propagate and rabbelrouse on one or two theologies because you can't seem to help it.

Don't think that they hate God anyway with out those wretched theologies, because my Christian friend almost left the faith when he was newly converted because he thought God was really the way these theologies claim God to be when he started to hear other people talk about God.
I've heard many other new Christians rethink their faith because of this.

Christians defend their theologies by quoting [b]Rom 9:20[/b] [color=990000]Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?[/color]
They think that I am arguing with God, but I am actually coming against their Theology & not God.

Leo_Grace wrote:
Those who are truly in Christ walk every day in the light of His truth, and it is God's truth that reveals our sinfulness apart from Christ.

Recognizing our own sinfulness is not a denial of God's grace, but an acceptance of the truth as we live in the light.

Do not be deceived. Confession of sin and repentance is part of the daily walk of all believers as long as we remain in the flesh.

Since sin is a choice, we may choose to not sin.
We can do this all day.
therefore, we may not need to confess sin and repentant because we have chose to net sin by loving God and keeping His commandments and obeying James 4:8 to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts and Humble ourselves in the sight of the Lord, that He shall lift us up(James 4:10).
Also obeying 2Corinth 7:1 let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I have no desire for argument, but thought it best to post the following Scripture for those willing to listen:

[u][b]God said:[/b][/u]

Isa 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD. “[b]This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit[/b], and trembles at my word.
[i]Note: Contrite - filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner.[/i]

[u][b]Teaching his disciples, Jesus said:[/b][/u]

Mt 23:12 [color=CC3300]"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and [b]whoever humbles himself will be exalted.[/b]"[/color]

Lk 18:11-14 [color=CC3300]"The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [b]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’"

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted[/b].”[/color]

[u][b]The Apostle James told the believers:[/b][/u]

Jas 5:15-16 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. [b]If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other[/b] so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

[u][b]The Apostle John told the believers:[/b][/u]

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/b] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

[b]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b]

Humility and a heightened sensitivity to sin are essential elements towards our sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Denial of the truth that man is sinful is a denial of Christ, the Word of Life (1 Jn 1:10).

I would add to what Leo said one question for consideration. To whom was the epistle of 1 John written? To unregenerate people in the world, or to born again believers? When you have determined the answer to that question, then you can read 1 John 1:9 in its proper context.

Dear truefaithsav,

You reasoning and rationalizing of your beliefs, no matter how logical they may appear to you, cannot match the authority of the inerrant word of God in Scripture. If you would follow twayneb's suggestion, you will find that the teachings of the apostle John quoted again below, were addressed to born again believers who, as you say, are "already under the mercy of God through Jesus Christ".

John teaches that, as born again believers of God led by the Holy Spirit, we must be sensitive to the sinfulness of our flesh and not be boastful of our justification through Christ - it is not of ourselves "so that no one may boast". It is the Spirit himself that instructs us to be mindful of our sins, and to confess them and repent of them. God our Creator knows what lies in the heart of man, thus these instructions.

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[i][b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/b][/i]

Heed Scripture, my friend.

Dear truefaithsav,

Below is a parable that the Lord Jesus Christ taught to his disciples (believers) who seemed confident in their own righteousness like you are:

[i]Lk 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [color=CC3300]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

Jesus, whom we both claim (I think) to be our Lord, says we should be humble and repentant of sin in regards to ourselves, because in God's eyes, humility is worthy of exaltation. I believe this teaching and I obey this teaching as one redeemed by Jesus - what about you? You appear to be selective in your obedience.

On the day of my judgment, I will stand before God humble and repentant of my sinfulness, for I know that my heart is deceitful above all things. I know that many times, in an instant of weakness, my heart can boil over in anger, or entertain evil thoughts, or sinful doubts, and for these I will be ever vigilant and always repentant. I can repent of them because I see them in my life with eyes wide open. At the same time, I am obedient to my Lord's commands and avoid sin whenever I can, and most especially I strive to live my life with an overwhelming love for God and for my fellow men. For He has told me that in following the greatest commandment, I am able to fulfill ALL the law and all the prophets.

What about you? Can you stand before God on judgment day and say that you obeyed what Jesus taught his believers should do in Lk 18:9-14? Or will you tell God that you thought other verses were more correct? Will you stand before Him and claim to be without sin because you obeyed the commands of God that you liked in the Bible?

Truefaithsav, when is the last time you sinned?