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Swine Flu H1N1 should you get it done??

sermonindex Oct 27, 2009

This is a serious issue and I want to bring this question to the table.

Today my Sister and her children were vaccinated. My Mother is now going to have it done. My stomach went sour when she told me that, and I asked another Christian if they were going to do it to and she said that she had her's done last week. A brother said that he wasn't going to have it done.

I work in a Care Facility and I am wondering if I too should have it done? I am at odds with this, wanting to trust God and at the same time using common sense. I've been down the road in trusting God for many things and He has always been there. But I have also observed and heard about others who have trusted God (supposedly) and die because they stopped taking their medication or went so long without treatment. I've seen people say that "God will raise me off the sick bed", they died with their sickness.

Should we take these types of chances? Unless you hear from God Himself, should we do like the woman with the issue of blood, spend all that we have in treatment? In other words, do what we know to do until faith has an opportunity to heal.

If you cut your finger off by accident by using the saw, do you pray about it first, or do you stick it back on wrap it and put it in ice and rush to the hospital? I am serious, there are Christians that really think this way. In dire straights, someone bleeding to death and they are praying. While they are praying the person dies, they bury him, he's gone. What did the praying do?

When my brother was choking on a hot dog, my father grabbed him stuck his finger down his throat and retrieved the obstruction, what if he stopped and prayed instead? My brother would have been dead.

There is a place for prayer, but there is also a place for emergencies and quick action is vital if we want to save lives. In my profession, there is no room for praying (though I do pray to myself on the job). If the house was on fire and I have to get residents out, praying ain't going to get them out. I have to get them out. If I don't, the law will not understand my reasoning. "I was praying your honour, seeking God for the best course of action". While the building is burning, I am waiting for instructions from the LORD. Sounds stupid doesn't it?

I am not belittling prayers so don't go there.

I am talking about common sense, faith, times to act and the right thing to do.

50 Million people died in 1918 (more than the first war) of the Spanish Flu and they had no vaccine in those days. My Great Aunt had it and she went down to skin and bones but she survived and lived to be almost 100 years.

I wonder if it's trusting God that I am concerned about OR is it failing God for not trusting Him?

Your thoughts on the vaccine is very important to me. Let me know if you have taken it and why? And also those of you who refuse to take it and why?

Thank you

M
MaryJane Oct 27, 2009

Greetings Deepthinker

I think that you will get the same answers here that you have from others that you know. Some seem to feel strongly that getting this shot is safe and have no concerns in doing so, while others seem to feel that it is not safe for them to do so. I have been praying about this for awhile now and am following what I and my husband feel the Lord leading us to do. We are not getting this shot. My oldest son was told by the doctor that he has already had H1N1, he was sick for about two weeks and is now feeling much better.(I should mention he became sick before the shot was made available) Having said that I should also mention that we have never gotten any of the flu shots offered so not getting this one is not all that different for us. I have had my children vaccinated with other shots from the time they were little and never felt unsafe in doing so. As Ginnyrose said on the other thread, Polo was a devastating disease. My dad suffered with it as a child and then again in the years before his death. I thank God there was a vaccine available for my children.

As for going to the doctor, when I or someone in may care has become sick I check to see what is wrong and then I pray about it. Clearly when my son was in a bicycle accident and was lying on the ground with a head injury and two broken arms I knew at once that God was urging me to react, to get him help and I did so. Many prayers went up during that time, that the doctor would be careful and mindful during the surgery, that no infections or complications would set in and so forth. Then there have been other times when the Lord has clearly shown me to wait and not go to the doctor and I was faithful during those times as well to submit myself to His will. In both of these cases I put my faith and trust in the Lord and He provided for me and my family.

I do not think there is a one size fits all kind of answer to your question except to trust in what the Lord is leading you personally to walk out whether that be to get this shot or not. After praying about this place your trust in Him and walk out what He shows you. Seek God daily in all things,submitting yourself unto His leading. Can't go wrong if you do.

God Bless
mj

L
Leo_Grace Oct 27, 2009

Dear DeepThinker,

I can understand people who may refuse the vaccine because they believe it to be unsafe. It has been rushed and approved for release on emergency basis, so it hasn't gone through the various confirmatory tests to prove it's safety. On this basis, refusal is understandable.

What I don't agree with is people who would refuse because they think having a vaccination means lack of faith in God. This is simply a false understanding of faith. Faith is believing that God can accomplish his purpose for us, including healing us when we are sick. But faith is also believing that he is all-powerful, able to use any and all available resources for his disposal.

For example, he directs chosen missionaries to travel thousands of miles in order to preach the gospel to the unsaved. He could easily win lost souls as he did with Paul, blind them with his presence, terrify them with his voice, and win them to himself by the power of his divine will - but he does not normally do this. He chooses to use men and resources to accomplish this rather that completing the work directly.

In my view, anyone who thinks taking medicine or going to a doctor signifies a lack of faith in God - that person is the one short of faith. Short of faith for underestimating God's ability to control our situation and provide for us through others, and short of faith for not knowing enough of scripture to realize that God works in all things.

[i]Ro 8:28 And we know that [b]in all things[/b] God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.[/i]

Believers who take medicine and go to the doctor don't forget who the greatest physician is - we pray for God to guide the hand of our surgeons, or to lead our doctors to the right treatment. God is never out of the picture.

L
Leo_Grace Oct 28, 2009

Regarding the H1N1 flu, I and my whole family have gotten it and recovered. We caught it before vaccine was available.

H1N1 is not like other types of flu. It attacks the respiratory system such that, if you have a preexisting condition, your life could be in danger. Except for extended bouts of coughing, my wife and kids shrugged off this flu easily.

In my case, since I was recovering from major surgery and still a bit weak from previous chemotherapy, I experienced prolonged high fever and developed pneumonia. There was a point when breathing became quite difficult for me. But with loving care from my wife and kids, I pulled through. It is not something that you would want to catch if your breathing is already compromised.

G
ginnyrose Oct 28, 2009

We have not taken this shot and do not plan to. Why? Common sense.

This site helped shape my opinion about it.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/24/CBS-Reveals-that-Swine-Flu-Cases-Seriously-Overestimated.aspx?sms_ss=facebook

ginnyrose

N
nearthecross Oct 28, 2009

The following website was specifically created to combat the misinformation, distortion, and confusion regarding the Swine Flu and the new vaccine:
http://swineflu.mercola.com

I
IWantAnguish Oct 28, 2009

Statistics show that H1N1 is around 400% less lethal than the seasonal flu.

Is that worth a taking a vaccine with mercury and squalene?

For some people yes, others no.

sermonindex Oct 28, 2009

Thank you for your answers so far. I am mainly bothered by my Mother taking it. She has never taken a flu shot, but she has a dedicated relationship with my Sister and basically she is following her lead. I am very concerned, and my insides feel like they are going to burst because of the anxiety of her doing something like this. I feel that it's not right to take.

Phil 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Your answers have been encouraging. I felt the need to express this question in this forum as it's really weighing heavy on my mind in regards to my kin.

I ask that anyone that feels led, to help me pray for my Mother that she make the right decision. Thank you

G
ginnyrose Oct 28, 2009

really weighing heavy on my mind in regards to my kin.

I can appreciate your concern but may I suggest you just relax? Taking this shot is not a sinful thing to do. Taking it or not taking it will not determine ones destiny...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

L
Lysa Oct 28, 2009

DT,

No matter how much you love her, you can't tell your mother what to do! Ginnyrose does bring it down to the nitty gritty!!

nearthecross was correct about Mercola! If you have to take the vaccine because of work, you can read the following excerpt from an article on his website:

Excerpt of [url=http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/19/The-Truth-about-the-Flu-Shot.aspx]What To Do if You are Forced to Take Swine Flu Shot [/url]:

The Following was composed by Dr. Russell Blaylock as a method to reduce autoimmune reactions to the flu vaccines only. Do not use this if you have the flu itself. These are just general observations and not medical advice. You should work with your doctor for a specific program.

Treatment for Toxic Vaccine Exposure

1. Place a cold compress on the site of the injection immediately after the injection and continue this as often as possible for at least two days. If symptoms of fever, irritability, fatigue or flu-like symptoms reoccur -- continue the cold compresses until they abate. A cold shower or bath will also help.

2. Take fish oils -- I recommend the Norwegian fish oil made by Carlson Labs -- it has the correct balance of EPA and DHA to reduce the cytokine storm. The dose is one tablespoon a day -- if severe symptoms develop -- two tablespoons a day until well and then switch to one tablespoon a day. Children -- one teaspoon a day.

3. Curcumin, quercetin, ferulic acid and ellagic acid as a mixture -- the first two must be mixed with extravirgin olive in one teaspoon. Take the mix three times a day (500 mg of each)

4. Vitamin E (natural form) 400 IU a day (high in gamma-E)

5. Vitamin C 1000 mg four times a day

6. Astaxanthin 4 mg a day

7. Zinc 20 mg a day for one week then 5 mg a day

8. Avoid all immune stimulating supplements (mushroom extracts, whey protein) except beta-glucan -- it has been shown to reduce inflammation, microglial activation and has a reduced risk of aggravating autoimmunity, while increasing antiviral cellular immunity.

9. Take a multivitamin/mineral daily (one without iron -- Extend Core)

10. Magnesium citrate/malate 500 mg of elemental magnesium two capsules three times a day

11. Vitamin D3:
....1 All Children -- 5000 IU a day for two weeks after vaccine then 2000 IU a day thereafter
....2 Adults -- 20,000 IU a day after vaccine for two weeks then 10,000 IU a day thereafter
....3 Take 500 mg to 1000 mg of calcium citrate a day for adults and 250 mg a day for children under age 12 years.

12. Avoid all mercury-containing seafood

13. Avoid omega-6 oils (corn, safflower, sunflower, soybean, canola and peanut oils)

14. Blenderize parsley and celery and drink 8 ounces twice a day

15. Take Jatoba tea extract (add 20 drops in on cup of tea) one day before the vaccine and the twice a day thereafter. (you can get it at [url=http://www.iherb.com/Amazon-Therapeutics-Jatoba-1-oz-30-ml/14429?at=0]http://www.iherb.com/Amazon-Therapeutics-Jatoba-1-oz-30-ml/14429?at=0[/url]) It is inexpensive.

sermonindex Oct 28, 2009

Oh don't misunderstand my plight Brother and Sisters, it's not that it's a sin, no not at all. What my concern is is the drug itself. I am not opposed to taking medications I take them myself, my concern is this particular drug. I just have a bad feeling about it. I hope what I am sensing is from the LORD, but sometimes our own discernment can be our own and not the LORD because of the love we have for our kin.

My Mother is not the type of woman that likes being told what to do, she had all that from my father, so I don't remind of her of that by telling her what to do, she'll only clam up. For her, I only pray that God will speak to her as she is a called out one. But if not, then God must be honoured for His wisdom in this situation.

After an evening of prayer and reflection, I have a settled peace about the matter. And thank you all for your love and support, it's good to know that we can come here and share and be a family.

Mary Jane, that was a very good post. I agree with you and do the same too and also the other posters.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Oct 28, 2009

Hi IWantAnguish...

Statistics show that H1N1 is around 400% less lethal than the seasonal flu.

Is that worth a taking a vaccine with mercury and squalene?


Can you provide a citation for this?

As for me, I am certainly praying that my wife and I will remain healthy. However, I see no problem with taking vaccines -- including the current swine flu vaccine. I have studied this quite a bit...and even more intensely since the last thread about the matter. I was preparing a list of the sources, facts, myths, and rumors. I still might try to get it together (but I have been a bit busy). I also have a Christian friend from college who now works as a senior scientist at a pharmaceutical company in the Research Triangle (just up the road from Krispy). He was one of the leads in the development of one of the main swine flu vaccines. He said that they are aware of the rumors about the vaccine, and are doing their best to "answer those concerns and debunk many of the misstatements." One of the claims -- that "[i]the doctors and scientists who created the vaccine have not taken it themselves[/i]" -- is simply untrue. My friend explained that every scientist on his team has taken the vaccination.

As far as many of the myths about the swine flu vaccine, the US Department of Health and Human Services actually [url=http://www.flu.gov/myths/index.html]set up a website[/url] to address many of the rumors. The CDC [url=http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal.htm]also opened up a website[/url] to answer concerns, rumors and misconceptions about Thimerosol (although this website was opened much earlier because this was used in flu vaccines for decades).

I actually work for a biotech company that designs devices for medical (mostly cancer) treatment. Part of my job is to analyze, criticize and review data that is used in academic, scientific, medical and engineering journals before they are published. These are peer reviewed research articles, which are not biased one way or the other. As a result, they include the evidence and a great amount of scrutiny. As part of my job, I have access to most articles included on PubMed and other medical research databases. Thus far, I haven't found a single article that validates many of the rumors included in anti-vaccination articles. Of course, I am still looking. However, the vast plethora of articles on vaccinations (including influenza and H1N1 vaccinations) conclude that these vaccinations are safe and effective.

I would urge those who are hesitant toward vaccinations to [u]always[/u] remain hesitant about any medical vaccination or treatment. Honest and sincere research is the key toward a greater understanding of such things. I urge individuals to NEVER take a vaccination or a treatment unless they have thoroughly reviewed it. At the same time, I would also urge believers to not be given over to rumors. There are plenty of rumors that are being uttered within the context of the discussion in many (if not most) of the anti-vaccination websites. If you are going to make a statement about such matters, it would be helpful to include a citation from where you gathered this information. A good citation is NOT an article in an anti-vaccination website. Rather, it would be much better to gather the source. Thus, a good article would be the credible, peer-reviewed sources from which the anti-vaccination articles based its conclusions.

Anyway, I might still gather some information together and include it here. Unfortunately, I cannot provide any of the articles from the medical database (contained at PubMed, etc...) since they must be personally purchased (and they are extremely expensive). I do urge anyone else who has a research-level PubMed account to search through these articles for themselves.

I will say this too. The swine flu vaccination is no more dangerous than the flu vaccination taken by millions of individuals (and more than a billion people) last year. The oft-criticized preservatives are included in several major vaccinations. The swine flu vaccination is comprised of exactly the same makeup of every flu vaccination for over a decade, with the exception of the strain of flu that is targeted. Many researchers have examined the accusation that vaccinations containing Thimerosal are linked to autism. So far, every major attempt to ascertain just a link literally could find no valid link whatsoever. While reported diagnoses of autism have increased dramatically since 1990, the cause for this has yet to be ascertained (including the possibility of previous underreporting). In addition, this preservative has been used in many other vaccinations (and even even anti-venoms) too.

Like many other believers, I feel that vaccinations are perfectly acceptable measures of preventive medicine. They have effectively eliminated many dreadful diseases from the nations where vaccinations are readily available (or even mandatory). Polio, smallpox, diphtheria and many others have been all but eradicated by vaccinations. There is a serious concern that H1N1 could mutate slightly and become just as dangerous as the 1918 flu pandemic that killed 50 Million people on Earth and effected 500 Million people. A third of the people living on Earth at the time contracted the flu...and one out of every 10 who contracted it died. This vaccine has been shown to be effective against the swine flu.

It is up to the person regarding whether or not they want to accept the vaccination. I suggest that one would not only access the supposed risk of taking the vaccination, but also the risk of not taking it as well. Of course, as children of God, we should remain in prayer as well. We should not fear the "terror by night" (Psalm 91:5). At the same time, I think that we should be good stewards of this earthly Temple of the Holy Spirit.

L
Leo_Grace Oct 28, 2009

I would urge those who are hesitant toward vaccinations to always remain hesitant about any medical vaccination or treatment. Honest and sincere research is the key toward a greater understanding of such things. I urge individuals to NEVER take a vaccination or a treatment unless they have thoroughly reviewed it. At the same time, I would also urge believers to not be given over to rumors.

Good advice. Thank you, Chris.

I
IWantAnguish Oct 28, 2009

During a typical year in the United States, 30,000 to 50,000 persons die as a result of (seasonal)influenza viral infection. Frequently cited numbers are 20,000 deaths each year, and 37,000 annual deaths. About 5-10% of hospitalizations for influenza lead to fatal outcome in adults.

[url=http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/]Stats for H1N1[/url]

H1N1 is a wussy excuse for a pandemic.

G
ginnyrose Oct 28, 2009

My Mother is not the type of woman that likes being told what to do,

uh,huh....she is not the only mom like that on this globe...you can't tell those kind of folks [i]anything[/i]. Once their mind is made up, you can't change it - usually. You can try, but I would not sweat it. Do as you please but know that some old folks get well set in their ways. And I would suppose some folks would say the same about me.. :-( Now THAT is unsettling. :-?

ginnyrose

N
nearthecross Oct 28, 2009

An excerpt from:
http://swineflu.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/27/Obama-Declares-Swine-Flu-Emergency.aspx

[b]One Thousand Deaths from Swine Flu?![/b]

Oh really?

Well I am from Chicago and I want to see the evidence. If you read Obama's declaration, you will find a complete absence of documentation to support his assertion that 1000 have died from H1N1 in the US. Nada, nothing no links, no references anywhere in the document to back up his assertion.

In fact, if you go to the definitive collector and holder of the US data, you will find that there is NO evidence to back this claim.

The CDC's own web site readily admits that since August 30, 2009 they are no longer testing for H1N1. They don't even recommend it any more. They are substituting a clinical definition for blood testing that will positively confirm that the "suspected" cases of H1N1 influenza are actually H1N1 influenza.

They've even coined what appears to be a whole new term: "ILI," which stands for "influenza-like illness."

The CDC H1N1 flu site reads:

"... tracking of 2009 H1N1 hospitalizations and deaths will not be the same after August 30, 2009.

In an effort to add additional structure to the national 2009 H1N1 reporting, new case definitions for influenza-associated hospitalizations and deaths were implemented on August 30, 2009.

The new definitions allow states to report to CDC hospitalizations and deaths (either confirmed OR probable) resulting from all types of influenza, not just those from 2009 H1N1 flu.

1. Influenza and pneumonia syndrome hospitalizations and deaths may be an overestimate of actual number of flu-related hospitalizations and deaths, but CDC believes influenza and pneumonia syndromic reports are likely to be a more sensitive measure of flu-associated hospitalizations and deaths than laboratory confirmed reports during this pandemic.

However, the syndromic reports of all hospitalizations and deaths recorded as either influenza or pneumonia will mean that the case counts are less specific than before and will include cases that are not related to influenza infection."

Folks, make no mistake about it. Health officials and media WILL trumpet these numbers as being H1N1 "swine flu deaths" even though, as you can CLEARLY read on the CDC's site, they admit that they will now include hospitalizations and deaths that are not even RELATED to the common influenza infection, let alone H1N1.

Well, no wonder the flu appears to be spreading when they are now including mere "symptoms of flu," which the CBS investigation found were NOT EVEN INFLUENZA RELATED in the overwhelming majority of cases!

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Oct 28, 2009

Hi IWantAnguish...

H1N1 is a wussy excuse for a pandemic.

As with any viral outbreak, the concern is that it can turn into a pandemic. The 1918 flu pandemic started slowly with a similar strain of H1N1, but eventually killed 50 Million people out of the 500 Million who became infected within two years. The vaccine is a precaution to prevent a more potent mutation.

Regardless, the swine flu vaccine is proven in lab tests to protect individuals from the flu. According to scientists at the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health and the pharmaceutical companies, this isn't even open to debate. Someone could try and debate the possible side effects, but it is substantiated through tests and trials that the swine flu vaccine is highly effective as a preventive medicine. The number of deaths that you cited could probably be lessened if individuals actually took a seasonal flu vaccine to begin with.

A
ADisciple Oct 28, 2009

I found the following rebuttal to Mercola by Joseph Albietz.
[url=http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116]http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2116[/url]

Personally I find it difficult to make a reasoned decision regarding this. I just don't feel I am knowledgeable enough.

What my heart greatly desires is to see the Lord's name glorified.

I think of Psalm 91. "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." And then it goes on to show the security of those who abide in that Secret Place. NO evil of any kind will befall them (Ps. 91.10).

It seems that we as a people have not come to that yet. We try to make the same reasoned decision that even unbelievers are trying to make.

Does not God have something higher for us? I know... there are those who have tried to fulfill scriptures like this in their own strength and presumption, withholding medication from a child... and then the child dies...

And so what does it take for the truth in this psalm to become our experience?

...That's what I'm asking, seeking, knocking on the Lord's door about.

Days are at hand when we are going to need this reality, days when vaccines and medications simply are not going to be an option.

I
IWantAnguish Oct 28, 2009

Do you trust the CDC, FDA, US Department of Health, and the giant pharmaceutical companies?

Do you know how much profit these companies are making off of this mass vaccination?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Oct 28, 2009

Hi nearthecross...

I would warn you that Dr. Mercola (the owner and business owner of the website that you linked and cited) is NOT an MD (he is an DO). He has been under investigation in the past for marketing drugs that were not approved by the FDA and embraces (and even markets) medical practices that are not shown to hold much if any medical weight, (such as Eastern herbal and alternative medical procedures [such as acupuncture]). He is a proponent of a wide array of controversial techniques (such as the controversial "Emotional Freedom Technique" that delves into "energy fields" and Chinese acupuncture techniques).

I suggest that you consider these things when weighing the opinion of the source.

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