What the Jesus Freaks Got Right

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

What The Jesus Freaks Got Right by David Alan Black.

http://www.daveblackonline.com/what_the_jesus_freaks_got_right.htm

restoring our biblical and constitutional foundations

What the Jesus Freaks Got Right

David Alan Black

I’m still waiting for it – the church marquee that says:

Senior Pastor: Jesus Christ

I could not think of anything greater than to be part of a fellowship of believers where Jesus Himself is intentionally given charge to lead His church, where all bow before Him whether pastor or deacon or so-called layperson. Paul insists that Christ must receive the preeminence in all things (Col. 1:18). Toward Him all must move.

Last week in our theology class I surveyed the main Scriptures having to do with authority in the church. I feel there are so many things in our churches that are inconsistent with Paul’s pronouncement that Christ is first and that everything must enhance His preeminence. How is it, I asked, that no one can name the “pastor” of any New Testament church? The answer is precisely because their first priority was Christ. The leadership they had was a “fellowship of leadership” (Michael Green) – a group of co-equal, non-hierarchical leaders who sought to steer their flocks’ energies into loving God, loving others, and loving the world.

It is essential that Jesus Christ be dynamically first in the life of our churches. When He is at the center – leading, empowering, directing, rearranging – our churches will no longer be pastor- or program-centered. To let a man or a method become too important is not only carnal, it’s idolatrous. It is an affront to Jesus Christ, who is the church’s only Senior Pastor.

I can remember my Jesus Freak days in Hawaii. Despite all of our eccentricities, I loved the fact that we were always talking about Jesus. First came Christ – not an institution. Then came one another – in Christ. Then came the world – for whom Christ died. These three commitments were not the result of seminary training. No, we were a bunch of establishment misfits. But the lordship of Christ was taken with total seriousness. We read verses like Col. 1:18 and were blown away – Jesus Christ at the center, in front, at the top, and beneath everything. Away with ecclesiastical traditions! Out with Madison Avenue approaches to church leadership! We scoffed at pastors who thought of themselves as modern-day Luthers or Calvins, blindly following some silly new book on leadership that 5 years later would be discarded. (I told you we were eccentric!)

I’m not saying that we were always right. We weren’t. Our theology was muddled in many areas. But we did love Jesus. We sought to serve and obey and enjoy the One who alone was worthy of our focus and worship and attention and obedience. Our church life revolved around Him – not a pastor or a pulpit or a program or a personality.

Friends, making Jesus number 1 is what it’s all about. Isn’t it about time we got back to the Bible’s way of moving people toward Christ rather than ourselves?

Senior Pastor: Jesus Christ

I’m still waiting….

October 25, 2009

J

jmooney6 Nov 2, 2009

This is exactly what I needed to read tonight! :-) Praise Jesus! Thank you Brother Jimmy.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

I think what David Black is talking about ties into brother Greg's 95 theses and whether it is even possible for the established Evangelical church to address its many problems. The present establishment is so entrenched in the senior pastor, proffessional clergy model, that it is impossible to see it reform itself in any meaningful way. There seems to be another reformation, revolution in the air with the current dead weight of religious institutions acting as an anchor to a movement(genuine Christianity) that is forever fluid.

Genuine Christianity does indeed have Christ as the head and the Holy Spirit forever leading and guiding ever step of the way, constantly giving directions as to how to move forward. Deacons and elders, full of the Holy Spirit enabling the body to grow and move in tune with what the Spirit wants to do to glorify Jesus is not only Biblical, but absolutely vital for the Church to make any significant impact on the unchurhed masses. The sooner the one man Catholic model of running church's is done away with the better..........Frank

H

Heydave Nov 2, 2009

I think there appears to be a growing awareness among the christians about getting back to a biblical model for church and church structure. For that I am truely pleased.

When I came to Christ nearly 30 years ago it was through a house fellowship type church that had no obvious leadership structure and the meetings were entirely body ministry, with each member (from one day old christians to the mature) being able to share the word of the Lord and worship equally. Of course I can look back and see there was much wrong in doctrine and practise, but like the post below says, our focus was JESUS. He was the head. As new born babes in Christ we fellowshiped daily from house to house talking about the things of God and praying together.

What we need is a return to this vibrant body functioning (priesthood of all believers) and plurality of Elders giving oversight, BUT with sound doctrinal and teaching of God's word. How do we get there? I guess we need to recognise those who the Lord raises up with teaching and shepherding ministries and humble ourselves under the Lord's hand, allowing Him to correct us and teach us through His ordained means.

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

Amen. I've noticed for some time now in the Lord that in your standard church, Jesus Christ is only the theoretical and theological head of the church. Practically speaking, however, He is not welcomed as such. Everybody everywhere acknowledges the headship of Jesus Christ in the church. But few have this as a reality. It's mostly just a dead reality.

The one man system largely developed subsequent decades after the first century as the church attempted to find a means by which it could defend against heresy. Eventually it grew to the point where the one man in Rome had final say in all things. And to some degree, it was a system that worked. Many great doctrines of the faith were faithfully defended, and some heresies absolutely stamped out as a result of this. But, the devil has shown in history that he is capable of infecting such men with heresy themselves, and capable of recycling old heresy in new generations.

Many many today appeal to such a system still as a practical necessity. "Otherwise, you'll have chaos." We should deal kindly and gently with such brothers. Many of them mean well, and love the Lord. But ultimately they must see that their insecurities in these things ultimately boil down to is a lack of trust and faith in the Lord to be the Lord He is supposed to be. It's a lack of faith in the Lord to be the practical head of His church.

I'm excited about the clear moving of the Holy Spirit in regard to these things. It is evident there is a great movement growing, not only in the Americas, but in the rest of the world. This is especially true in China. I believe the relic of the institutional church is on its way out the door, and that the Lord will probably bring about some pretty dramatic things in this world, perhaps within my own lifetime, to bring an end to much of this system as we know it. Even Rome is presently on the brink of disaster. If it's mostly hispanic followers did not have such a high birth rate, Rome could be very broke very soon, and almost unable to function. Even now it is on the brink of financial disaster.

T

twayneb Nov 2, 2009

The one man system largely developed subsequent decades after the first century as the church attempted to find a means by which it could defend against heresy. Eventually it grew to the point where the one man in Rome had final say in all things. And to some degree, it was a system that worked. Many great doctrines of the faith were faithfully defended, and some heresies absolutely stamped out as a result of this. But, the devil has shown in history that he is capable of infecting such men with heresy themselves, and capable of recycling old heresy in new generations.

When a plurality of God ordained eldership exists in a body of believers it is the best defense against heresy. Each one is in submission and accountable to the others. Leadership decisions are made as the group seeks God together and hears from Him in unity. (Just some practical stuff)

Pastor, interestingly enough, is just one of the five equipping gifts that God gave to the body. We are so accustomed to hearing someone say, "Who is your pastor?", but we don't usually hear, "Who is your apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher?" Biblically one never finds the term pastor used in regards to being the sole leader of a local body. One always finds a plurality of eldership being ordained by apostolic and prophetic leadership. An elder may be a pastoral gift to the body, but does not have to be. I personally believe this one man "pastor" leadership paradigm has been detrimental to the body, but worse, it has harmed those God has called into leadership in the body. How many men do we have as pastors of churches that are being forced to operate outside of their gift and calling by God because that is the only paradigm in which they can operate?

Praise God that many, it seems, are beginning to see and adopt the Biblical paradigm as far as leadership in the body is concerned.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

loved your post/testimony Jimmy.....its funny that you should bring up Jesus Freaks; I became acqauinted with those who follow Jesus, at 15 when I stumbled into a Jesus Freak house, an old Victorian house, crumbling, an intentional community, beautiful people, I really loved them, loved being there, etc.....

anyway, on the night of Oct22/23 God blessed me ...in a dream, with the TITLE, and the actual plot of a book of Christian fiction, it would actually be a SERIES of books, unabashedly Christian, about 8 young seminary graduates who make intentional Jesus community in a big old house, and no, it no "Shack", its not "Po-mo", its not "emerging" Emergent, nothing "off" about this work, just what eight young followers of Jesus go through living Life Together, and God is blessing this work, I am cooking! Words flow, He's helping me do stuff like going backwards and forwards in plot, one chapter is in first person, the next is in third person, He's in my heart, helping me get rid of lines with the admonition, "Don't be boring neil", etc etc . The 8 people (there might be more ...or less, in future books) are all based on brothers and sisters I know in the Lord who I love and know dearly and deeply. I'm telling ya'll, God willing, even Walter would like it.

I don't write this to boast or brag, but to tell you, I felt that your post was a confirmation to me, to continue on this path of work. I had always resisted writing Christian fiction, dont mistake me, everything I wrote, including the last play was to Glorify God, but I was loathe to be ghetto-ized in the "Christian fiction" camp, not so with this, I write it all in the prayer that if it gets published, it will edify, encourage and make glad the heart of those who follow Messiah, oh what a blessing that would be....so I guess the real purpose of my response is , my brother, and any others who read this, please pray my pen and keyboard be annointed, for His Glory...please.....and remember, it aint "emerging" to 'drive' to 'purposes' or 'shacks".......nor will there be any empty clothes "left behind", just simple stories about humble people. Glory!!!

in Jesus love, neil

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

The one man system of how we do church does not date back to the emrging Catholic church as one may assume. While that is definately the model that was continued after the reformtion, it actually dates back to what was known as the "Mystery Religions." This was long before Christ and , very basicly, all the power was held by " a priest." Only he had the knowledge and of course this knowledge translated into power and wealth. One can see some gnosticism in it, where only the priest had certain knowledge which made his distinct from the crowd of lesser mortals. Obvioulsy, what became the Catholic church , took this model and only the priest could turn the bread and the wine into the body and blood of Jesus thus giving them enormous power and influence over the broad masses. While most Protestant "Pastors," would deny that they have a smiliar position, in actuality that is what they do have. If anyone wants to read "Two Baylons," in can be found here online http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

Its quite a heavy read but if you persevere you will understand exactly where this one man system comes from and it is certainly not from God.

There is definatley a growing feeling of discontentment from many quarters of the globe as far as this ungodly one man system is concerned. The priesthood has been starved and sidelined from performing their gifts and duties within the established church and what we now have, generaly speaking, is a specatator sport, where the audience is entertained which is why personality is so important in today's "pulpit." If the same man is going to teach week after week then he better bring something new and fresh to keep the audience's attention.

I definately believe that a new movement is coming, probably the last great movement. It will be more dramatic than the reformation in that it will do away with the established system of church altogether. If there is a gathering of 200, then perhaps there will be 20 people with the gift of teaching. And of course there will be evangelists and pastors , prophets and apostles. This will only be a work of the Holy Spirit because if men try to do this in their own strength, then their pride and ego and flesh will demand recognition and it would break down pretty quickly. Only broken men who have a burning desire to see the name of Jesus elevated over the lintels of the church and who are consumed with the notion of God being glorified at all costs will be able to birth such a movement. And of course that in and of itself is a work of God alone. It is coming brothers and sisters, and God will bring it to pass for the sake of having a witness on the earth in these the last days...........Frank

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

When a plurality of God ordained eldership exists in a body of believers it is the best defense against heresy. Each one is in submission and accountable to the others. Leadership decisions are made as the group seeks God together and hears from Him in unity.

I totally agree. I believe it is also a common thing that there will generally be one or two of the elders who are charismatic than the others wherever such a plurality exists. It is the belief of some church historians that this is how some of the initial monarchical bishops/pastor system began to arise in the church. But wherever this exists, such an elder must resists any undo attention to him or his ministry.

And within this plurality of elders, we must resist the common Presybterian notion of a "ruling elder" or a "teaching elder" who in turn becomes nothing more than a Senior or Executive pastor in the church. We must recognize there is only one senior pastor, one high priest, and one chief apostle... and that is Jesus Christ.

Where any "senior" position exists, we really have a very watered down version of an anti-Christ spirit at work. As some of you might be aware, the word anti-Christ doesn't so much imply somebody who is "against" Christ as it does somewho who is "instead" of Christ. Of course, the man of sin at the end of the age will be both to the 100th degree. But, I see wherever a senior pastor exists, there exists a mindset that has a taint of an anti-Christ influence in it. For such a person is setting himself up as something that is reserved for Jesus Christ alone.

Now, I don't say that so as to speak negatively about many of our godly breathren who have held and continue to hold such positions today. Many of them are simply ignorant of many of these great truths. I'm simply trying to shine some light on these things, so that we might expose them, and put away with childish and carnal things, so that we can as a church move on from faith to faith and glory to glory.

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

The one man system of how we do church does not date back to the emrging Catholic church as one may assume.

Well, I'm simply talking about within church history :-) I wouldn't so much attempt to tie any of this to any of the mystery religions or any such thing though. This is just a common thing that in this fallen world, is natural to man. The idea of having one person is charge of everything is a very attractive thing. There is a seduction about it.

There is definitely a reformation brewing. I believe in part, that while much of this will be simply Spirit fueled and inspired, many will not awaken from their sleep until Christ shakes the nations very hard in the very near future. I believe these things will not greatly vanish until the Lord drives many denominations into financial bankruptcy, making it very difficult for the show to go on. Because frankly, many of the men who are Christians who head these organizations run the church and make pastoral decisions and such simply based off issues surrounding finance and real estate.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

I have given some consideration upon how I would reply to this post. I was saved in revival, the Jesus People Revival, in 1972. We were referred to a Jesus freaks first by the masses of hippies, and then [ with mostly disdain] by the establishment.

Many have thought that this was the last real revival on American soil. I was part of it. It was the glory of God for breakfast, lunch, Dinner, and bedtime. I awoke every day of my life in the Spirit, with the joy of the Lord. Our days were days of excitement,to see what God would do, and where we would be led. We were a rag-tag group, mostly without jobs..[though we did earn money in legal ways..]. We carried our well worn bibles with us EVERYWHERE we went, and consumed the Word. We felt it unusual NOT to lead someone to Jesus in a day, and preached the word at all times.

I lived at the "Hallelujah House", in Guerneville California, communally, with 21 other Christians, Jesus Freaks; there were 11 sisters and 11 brothers. For the 2 years that I knew of it, there was not 1 case of immorality. Not 1. Holiness was just natural, a part of living, and to be expected.

We hitchhiked almost every where, and "witnessed" continually. We were a family first, and cared about each other. I have seen the VISIBLE Shekinah glory descend upon us...I could go on...

This began to wane after about 5 years, and the church, that had began so small, had grown, and the brothers began to earn money...big money. We became rich. The glory departed, and today, I am appalled at the numbers of Jesus Freaks so reprobate.

I have read every post on this thread, and want to post in the current vein. We died, in general, because there were no Fathers; no real ones, anyway. The control of men, eventually strangled our community, and the Spirit was pushed out, as were the least of the brothers, because they could no longer measure up.

Men who began as the Pastors; [ just babies themselves, with 1 or two years in Christ..] began to see themselves as the reason for revival, and themselves as indispensable, and became Professionals. They had to control, and soon the control had no end. They monitored our paychecks to make sure the mandatory tithe was payed....

Soon, we became the establishment. We were no different than those we disdained just a few years before as hypocrites. We sat in pews,[folding chairs] listened to on leader talk on and on about the bible, and no longer walked with God. We dried up, and many fell away. How could it be?

The Spirit was quenched, and Jesus left when man took over. It's that simple. The hireling was born in our midst, and men who loved the glory given by men, more than the HONOR given by God alone encroached. We were destroyed, except for some. I'll speak for myself. I've been disciplined near death...but not forsaken. Our hearts were right, and I, as many of you, believe that this will return, with one great difference. There WILL be FATHERS at that time, who ARE NOT a PRIEST CLASS, or PROFESSIONAL HIRELING TYPES! they will lay their lives down, even unto the least of the brethren.

We are about to see the emergence of real apostolic fathers.

L

Leo_Grace Nov 2, 2009

There is much wisdom and truth in this thread. If this timeless idea of formally recognizing the Lord Jesus as the living head (not just a titular head) of each and every local church, and of instituting a plurality of ministers (servants) under Him who would implement church programs as they are moved by the Holy Spirit of Christ, much of the problems of the modern church could be avoided, and much of its true ministry could be accomplished.

But will this remain just another nice thought destined to fade as we grapple with everyday realities? I pray that the believers in this forum who are in positions of influence and authority in local churches will be willing to "step out of the box" and begin to preach and work to establish the Lord Jesus, once and for all, as the true living head of every local church, and to abolish the one-sinful-man-rule that prevails today.

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

Absolutely amen. This has been the thing that God has often dealt with me about. We are in desperate need of men who are truly fathers of the faith. In bible college they taught me how to be a professional. One professor boasted that when he was a pastor, not one member ever darkened the door of his home in all his years of ministry. His home was his sanctuary for him and his family, and he did not want people disturbing his domestic life. He meant well I know. But, it never occured to him that such a mentality smacks at the notion of elders needing to be a hospitable bunch, as mentioned in 1 Tim 3. If we are truly pastors in the biblcal sense, we will open up our lives and homes for all to see, without worrying about our precious "authority" being taken away. Our authority will be the work of the Spirit engrained into our lives, an open book for all to see.

K

KingJimmy Nov 2, 2009

But will this remain just another nice thought destined to fade as we grapple with everyday realities? I pray that the believers in this forum who are in positions of influence and authority in local churches will be willing to "step out of the box" and begin to preach and work to establish the Lord Jesus, once and for all, as the true living head of every local church, and to abolish the one-sinful-man-rule that prevails today.

The greatest question I've grappled with for a couple years now is how to bring this truth into an existing church. Practically speaking, I don't think it can happen within a church that is officially part of a larger denomination, unless that church is willing to officially leave the denomination (which does happen from time to time). This is especially true in your typical episcopal structure, which simply will not permit such a governance which is at odds with the offical polity of the denomination-- which will be enforced from the top down. Because of the way most denominations are structured, that church will likely have to give up its property ownership, as property is usually owned by the denominational heads. This will have to happen though in the long run. The machine will have to be dismantled by force, or abandoned by saints.

The same goes with your typical non-denominational independent church. There is a great chance you could reform such a local church. But that will depend on how open the senior pastor is to doing such. If he's a control freak, it's not likely to happen But with prayer and gentle yet frequent exhortations, such a man can be won.

The best way to do this sort of thing though is from the ground up. I would love to do it in my area. But sadly, I know of no brothers or sisters who are like minded in this regard, and would be willing to start such a fellowship. I'm getting ready to find a new church to belong to. In truth, I might seek to fellowship across multiple local churches in hopes of forming such a gathering. Too bad no brothers from Sermon Index live in my immediate area (that I know of). "House churches" are almost non-existant in this area as well.

M

Miccah Nov 2, 2009

KingJimmy wrote:

The best way to do this sort of thing though is from the ground up. I would love to do it in my area. But sadly, I know of no brothers or sisters who are like minded in this regard, and would be willing to start such a fellowship. I'm getting ready to find a new church to belong to. In truth, I might seek to fellowship across multiple local churches in hopes of forming such a gathering. Too bad no brothers from Sermon Index live in my immediate area (that I know of). "House churches" are almost non-existant in this area as well.

Amen brother. I say this because what you are speaking of is not out of the ordinary for some me. As a leader of a House Church, I can tell you that regardless of where I go, so a House Church will go as well, God willing.

It starts with you brother. The institutionalized church is, for the most part, just that. Step out, with the Lord in full control, and be the first of many that are to come in your area.

Your loving brother. :-)

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

"I wouldn't so much attempt to tie any of this to any of the mystery religions or any such thing though. This is just a common thing that in this fallen world, is natural to man. The idea of having one person is charge of everything is a very attractive thing. There is a seduction about it."

I would agree that it is a common thing and not a Godly thing. It has its roots not in God but in the enemy. Let me give you an example. The Holy Spirit says this to the church, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking on the form of a bondservant, coming in the likeness of man. And being found in the appearence of man, humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God has highly exalted HIm and gave Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Now, what was this mind that we should have?

hp 2:2 then fulfill my joy, that you may be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Do not let each man look upon his own things, but each man also on the things of others. For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus............."

And so Jesus represents how we should walk and serve. And for the better part of 200 after this writing, this was a reality, as opposed to what is "common," to man. What is common to men is the ways of the father of lies. Who forever seeks to exalt himself above his position and even had the audacity to ask Jesus to bow to him.

I believe that this new movement will not start in North America, it will start where the established church has all but been swept away, somewhere like Scotland. New wineskin for new wine. The old order is still very entrenched in America. I believe that people are so hungry and thristy for the things of God that they will move to where others of like-mind are. The very moving would signify how important this is to them. To serve God in a community of like-minded believers is something you either have a desperation for or not, I believe. The IHOP model(and this is not an advertisement for them, believe me) is not a bad model. People from all over the world have gathered in that little town of Grandview Missouri because they are sold out to the idea. They move into the area, buy or rent a house and work and so on but they are their primarily because they believe that they are called to be there. Whether they are or not is not the issue, but the model is not a bad one and I believe we will see something like that emerge. ............Frank

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

As I was reading I came across this post by appolus that I appreciated concerning the Prophet George Fox, and his ministry. It is relevant and self explanatory as to it's relation to this thread.

A FREE GOSPEL

The calling out of hirelings in the church was something that George Fox did regularly, he had a peculiar spiritual gifting of being able to discern true and spurious profession. He seemed to trumpet this message against the selling of Christ and religion with a burdened jealous heart, much in the likes of Christ Himself toppling the moneychangers tables. The worldly spirit of the priests made him suffer: and when he heard the bells ring to call worshippers to the steeple-houses, it struck him to the heart, 'for it was just like a market-bell to gather people together that the priest might set forth his ware to sale. Oh, the vast sums of money that are gotten by trade they make of selling the Scriptures, and by their preaching... notwithstanding the Scriptures were given forth freely, and Christ commanded his ministers to preach freely."

Another point that touches at the very heart of George Fox's ministry was the telling people that God has come to teach them Himself. It is brought out clearly in his journal when he said: "These things I did not see by the help of man, nor by the letter, though they are written in the letter, but I saw them in the light of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by his immediate Spirit and power, as did the holy men of God, by whom the Holy Scriptures were written."

E

elected Nov 3, 2009

Very enlightening posts, thx for sharing. In Hebrews 13: 7 is said, "remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

Leaders in the local church were prural, that was the divine pattern of NT church government.

They ministered the word of God to the church, they were godly men, an example to follow in faith as they followed their Chief Shepherd.

"Consider the outcome of their way of life." Their lives were holy, they were men of God with spiritual maturity and a great compassion for the lost and tender love for the flock of God.

Their character was blameless and noble. These elders qualified for spiritual leadership because they had the godly qualities and charisma to be fit for the noble call of shepherding the flock of th Lord.

There is one thing even more important than the divine pattern of church government, it is men of God in the church with a burning heart for Gods glory and for a genuine fellowship among believers.

There are churches who practice the plurality of leadership (eldership) in the church who aren't any better i believe than those who are led by one pastor.

God will keep us reponsible according to the light revealed to us by the Holy Spirit in His Word.

K

KingJimmy Nov 3, 2009

Amen brother. I say this because what you are speaking of is not out of the ordinary for some me. As a leader of a House Church, I can tell you that regardless of where I go, so a House Church will go as well, God willing.
It starts with you brother. The institutionalized church is, for the most part, just that. Step out, with the Lord in full control, and be the first of many that are to come in your area.

Amen, and I agree, and believe one should do such as well. But so long as the denominational/institutions exist, should you ever appoint an elder/pastor, I imagine the pastor of your institutional church isn't going to particularly like that too much. It is a conflict waiting to happen.

K

KingJimmy Nov 3, 2009

As I was reading I came across this post by appolus that I appreciated concerning the Prophet George Fox, and his ministry. It is relevant and self explanatory as to it's relation to this thread.

Perhaps a better example could be in order. I'm not a big fan of George Fox. I know Ravenhill was, and many on SI are fans of him because of Ravenhill's influence. But um, well... :-)