The doctrine called "Lordship salvation"?

A

anonymity Nov 2, 2009

I basically do not hold to this doctrine. That one has to stop sinning before they come to Christ. I would like to reasonably dialogue with some on this subject. I think it would be a good thing to do as a Berean. Could you share your thoughts on the subject? I would like to hear your take on the matter whether negative or positive. The main thing of course is Scripture. So, clear passages are really the main thing if one wants to persuade to their stance. If you would like to share with me why you hold to this doctrine for instance please provide as many clear passages as you can. Thanks and hope to hear from some on this matter.

E

enid Nov 2, 2009

I've heard of this doctrine, but I'm not entirely familiar with what it means.

Could you explain further what is involved?

Thanks.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

From what I have read on other blogs since this topic was dropped here as a 'drive by' thread, it seems to have a derrogatory tone for those who teach that Christ is 'Lord' over our lives which proves our salvation. Basically, from what I can gather, it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to stop sinning in order come to Christ, but that a repentant life (as in knowing your sin through conviction of the Holy Spirit, and holding youself accountable for it through admission and repentance) AFTER we are born again, is the security we have for salvation... not faith.

Those who accuse others of this doctrine are basically saying that 'works related salvation' is security of that salvation, but I'm not saying this is a 100% accurate description. I can see how some would accuse those who hold this doctrine... of so called 'legalism' or legalistic salvation, since those who are not born again can often come from the legalistic reference point. My stand, and I think the stand of many here, is that Christ is our Savior by faith... and Lord of our lives in terms of regenerating and perfecting us. Those who would accuse of Lordship Salvation would say we believe that we can lose our salvation by stumbling or being a 'struggling saint' as Paul Washer sometimes describes it. Those who accuse of this doctrine and claim to be born again could likely be affiliated with a 'feel good' gospel crowd that rarely discusses the absence of sin in our lives as a regenerate state, and have found a 'catchy phrase' to lump us into. They are basically saying that we believe that the regenerate man is the cause of our salvation and not the result. They seem to claim that we believe a regenerate man can lose their salvation if they stumble. They take people like truefaithsav, and those like he and the Jesse Morrel's of the world, and lump us in with them. I don't intend to get into this yet again since it will probably be widdled down to 'faith vs works' and 'can you lose your salvation' debate. They intend to keep this debate going. Enough already.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

First of all there are a mutitude of positions within two broad camps. The way that you described Lordhsip salvation is not correct. Lordship salvation is basicaly that after one is saved through faith by grace alone, then one will see a transformed life, a new creature if you like.

2Co 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So, the evidence of the above Scripture is that the person genuinly saved will be sanctified after being saved. Day by day, month by month and year by year the new creature will become more and more like Christ and the evidence of this will be clearly seen by all. Now it may be fits and starts and three steps forward and two back and so on, but the general thrust of the life of one who has the Lordship of Jesus in His life will be upwards, meaning becoming more like Jesus (read James and see how he exposes hypocrites who claim to be saved but have no change in their lives)

On the flip side you have Free grace theology which claim that those of the other persausion are legalistic and that they are using their "works," to be justified before God. The free grace people have been accused of being "nominal Christians," who look just like the world becuase they can go on sinning freely without worrying about losing their salvation, what used to be known as antinomianism, meaning a flagrant dis-regard of God's commandments.

I would argue that if God is not the Lord of your life then you are not and never were saved. Does that mean that genuine Christians live sinnless lives? No, they are a work in progress

Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, having been unvoiced during eternal times;
II Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

If one has truly committed their whole lives to God (which is salvation) Luk 17:33 Whoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whoever shall lose his life shall preserve it

then God will keep that which has been commited to Him until that one stands before Him.........Frank

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

Hi appolous. I'm not sure how you read my post but in reading yours it seems like we're saying the same thing. I was not defining Lordship Salvation as we see it but as they see it and accuse us through their own lens. I was speaking of those who imply that Lordship salvation is not of faith as there seems to be a contingent that accuses us here of believing that Lordship Salvation is the cause and not the result of salvation. They will also say that if one believes they can lose their salvation then this is not of faith but of Lordship only. It doesn't really matter if we say those who aren't regenerate may not have been saved in the first place as if they are giving Phariseeish lip service when their hearts are far from Him, because our critics will see it the way the want and define it thusly. My stance on this personally is the same it always has been, that we are saved by faith and Jesus becomes Lord of our lives through regeneration which is the same as 'new creature' moving forward. We are being perfected or are 'a work in progress' as you would say.

I believe it is mostly the free grace crowd that is defining this doctrine differently than us and spinning it in a derrogatory and legalistic tone. This was my observation with the blogs I was looking at. So I was defining this doctrine on my observation of their definition.. not mine. In a nutshell, I think many are put off by so much talk of condemnation of sin and being 'sin free' that they are wondering if we believe that we are saved by Lordship and not faith. Right or wrong, many don't want to talk about the sin in their lives or acknowledge that it's something they must deal with... the itching ears are all around.. and not only will they gravitate to what they want to hear, they will accuse others with a derrogatory label and define us as they see it and not how it actually is. Let's face it, there aren't any Leonard Ravenhill's in the mainstream church who challenge us to submit to Christ and His Word in obedience and reverence. Sermon's like his would be the equivalent of eating nails to those who aren't interested in having Christ as Lord of their lives. Therefore some would accuse someone like a Ravenhill of saying that we are saved by obedience... these are the same ones I was observing.

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

Hi CC

I was referring to the original poster in my reply. It seems that you and I are on the same page. I think part of the problem is the multiple sub-sets that exist on either side of this debate. On the Lordship Holiness side there is a whole group that I would have difficulty in fellowshipping with , that is why I wrote "The danger of your Holiness."

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/the-danger-of-your-holiness/

sermonindex Nov 2, 2009

Ahhh... I gotcha.

"I think part of the problem is the multiple sub-sets that exist on either side of this debate." appolus

Agreed.

K

Koheleth Nov 2, 2009

enid wrote:
I've heard of this doctrine, but I'm not entirely familiar with what it means.
Could you explain further what is involved?
Thanks.

Let me simplify or summarize the "two sides", just to open up the idea of this topic of Lordship Salvation. One side says that salvation is free and Christ can be your Savior without needing to the your Lord. The other side, responding to what they believe to be a new doctrine in the past century, says that there is no salvation in Christ without the lordship of Christ. The phrase "Lordship Salvation" describes this view, and I think the phrase "Free Salvation" or something of the like describes the other perspective.

That's what I have understood them to mean and I am not interested in debate. I personally hold that Jesus must be Savior and Lord and King and Master and Shepherd and Friend and Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End for there to be salvation, but choose as you please, wisely and carefully. To your own master you will stand or fall.

L

Laviver Nov 2, 2009

Tozer said it like this, "If Jesus can't control you, then He cannot save you."

A

anonymity Nov 2, 2009

This is what I am seeking to address:

From what I understand this doctrine teaches that one must stop sinning/repent before they can be forgiven and saved.

However, a sinner cannot stop sinning until after coming to Christ and being born again receiving a new nature which can overcome the old sin enslaved one.

Since it is therefore an impossibility for a sinner to stop sinning/repent it is therefore a hinderance towards one getting saved to teach this.

A girl once told me she was not yet "ready" to come to Christ. I told her she will never be ready. She must come to Christ and He will make her right. A Leper does not cleanse themselves then come to Christ they come to Christ and then are cleansed.

A sinner must come to Christ by faith and surrender and Christ will work righteousness in them and He alone.

The only thing a sinner needs to repent of before being born again is unbelief and must let go and surrender themselves to Christ to be changed.

T

TaylorOtwell Nov 2, 2009

When the word "repent" occurs in Scripture, I think it would be helpful to determine what the audience is supposed to be repenting from. The word "repent" in and of itself does not mean much unless it is connected to a specific mindset/action.

For example, you can repent of doing good. You can repent of loving others. On the other hand, you can repent of unbelief. You can repent of stealing.

It seems to me that the Biblical position of repentance is that of changing one's mind about Christ. Instead of rebelling against Christ in unbelief, the person now repents of that unbelief and embraces Christ. Of course, this is worked by the Spirit. Repentance is also a forsaking of sin, and a declaring of war on sin.

I believe that where I (and historic Christianity) would differ from the teaching that one must rid themselves of all sin prior to being saved is that repentance can be genuine while remaining imperfect. In other words, an individual can genuinely (sincerely) repent in an imperfect way (without becoming sinless). Scripturally, I believe this is the only way to understand repentance as being something that happens both during conversion and after conversion. This view harmonizes with Scriptures that teach that after conversion the Christian continues this war against sin.

With care in Christ,
Taylor

K

Koheleth Nov 3, 2009

anonymity wrote:
This is what I am seeking to address: From what I understand this doctrine teaches that one must stop sinning/repent before they can be forgiven and saved.

The so-called "Lordship Salvation" issue has nothing to do with stopping sinning before you can be saved by Jesus. Probably the best book on the topic is John MacArthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus." A very worthwhile read if you are interested in something outside of the Bible to put together the "Lordship Salvation" perspective for you. It even has a Q&A in the appendix, so I think it will answer your questions far better than a discussion on SI, as it was carefully written over a number of years.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2009

When you give your soul to Jesus to save, you also give Him your life to rule. When Jesus becomes the Savior of your soul, He also becomes the Lord of your life.

sermonindex Nov 3, 2009

From what I understand this doctrine teaches that one must stop sinning/repent before they can be forgiven and saved.
However, a sinner cannot stop sinning until after coming to Christ and being born again receiving a new nature which can overcome the old sin enslaved one.
Since it is therefore an impossibility for a sinner to stop sinning/repent it is therefore a hinderance towards one getting saved to teach this.

You are right in saying that a sinner cannot find freedom from sin until they are first saved by Christ. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit working in regeneration can a person overcome sin. They must have a new nature before than can have a new manner of living for the glory of God. So in this regard, it is certainly true that it is a tremendous hindrance to tell sinners to "stop sinning" and then come to Jesus, because such is absolutely impossible, and will produce hopelessness at worst, and Pharisees at best, and never result in real salvation because it is tantamount to salvation by morality, self-effort and works.

However, with that being said, that it not what traditional "Lordship salvation" teaches or believes. While there may be extremists here and there who teach sinless perfection or that you have to stop sinning completely before you can be saved, there are also many real teachers of the Word of God who hold firmly to a "Lordship" position.

What they teach is that you cannot divide Jesus in parts and receive Him as Savior but reject Him as Lord. If you reject Him as Lord then you cannot expect to receive the benefits of His saving work. According to this belief, true saving faith that results in salvation is a faith of submission which manifests itself by willing, loving, and obedient submission to Christ as one's Lord, Master and King. Therefore, to reject obedience and to reject Christ as Lord of your life is to evidence that you have never had true saving faith, despite the fact that you may profess Him with your mouth.

In other words, while obedience does not save, it is the essential fruit and evidence of having been saved.

~~[i]~~Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.[/i]

Perhaps the best known defender of this (correct) view is John Macarthur in his books, "The Gospel According to Jesus" and the follow-up, "The Gospel According to the Apostles". They are excellent books and well worth the read. He also has some messages on his website which are preached based on the message of those books.

A

anonymity Nov 4, 2009

Taylor,

I agree with you mostly I believe on this topic. That repentance has to be defined and does not always mean stop sinning until it (repentance) is attached to something.

I believe that when Scripture says repent and believe that it does not mean stop sinning and believe. It means repent from not putting your faith in Christ and in this repentance from sins will follow and correspond.

The place where I think I might differ is that I do not believe a sinner needs to have their heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they can believe. One might say well if a sinner if able to believe without God making them to then it is a work. However, Paul tells us in Romans that work is not a work and is indeed the very opposite.

A

anonymity Nov 4, 2009

Koheleth,

I thought of that book. I believe I read it a long time ago, but cant find it to re review. Plus, I find conversing often a more efficient way to seek things out sometimes then reading in a one way fashion.

I think though that this doctrine does have to do with stop sinning. For it says that one must stop sinning or repent from sinning before they can come to Christ.

A

anonymity Nov 4, 2009

Truefaithsave,

I agree that those who are truly saved have Christ as their Lord as a necessity.

I am though saying that one cannot stop sinning before coming to Christ. That they are to repent before coming to Christ, but not of works but of unbelief.

Then after Christ purchases them He is then their Lord.

A

anonymity Nov 4, 2009

Josef,

You are right in saying that a sinner cannot find freedom from sin until they are first saved by Christ. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit working in regeneration can a person overcome sin. They must have a new nature before than can have a new manner of living for the glory of God. So in this regard, it is certainly true that it is a tremendous hindrance to tell sinners to "stop sinning" and then come to Jesus, because such is absolutely impossible, and will produce hopelessness at worst, and Pharisees at best, and never result in real salvation because it is tantamount to salvation by morality, self-effort and works.

Amen.

However, with that being said, that it not what traditional "Lordship salvation" teaches or believes. While there may be extremists here and there who teach sinless perfection or that you have to stop sinning completely before you can be saved, there are also many real teachers of the Word of God who hold firmly to a "Lordship" position.

Well, I thought, they taught that one must repent of sin and then come to Christ. For many from what I understand teach repent from sin, confess your sins, and believe on Christ. However, if one has to repent from sin before coming to Christ then they cannot and it is a work.

A

anonymity Nov 4, 2009

I know that Christ is Lord of those who are saved and agree with that as essential and always.

I know that many teach that we are to repent of sins/stop sinning, confess sins, and believe on Christ to be saved.

I heard that Lordship Salvation adherents hold this this view that one must repent of sins/stop sinning/forsake sins before being saved.

I am disagreeing with this because one cannot repent from sin/forsake sin/stop sinning before they are born again.

I believe that repentance means to repent from unbelief and surrender to the grace of Christ which will in result lead to a change of life.

Then there are also those who will say that a sinner cannot believe until God regenerates their heart or the Holy Spirit causes them to. However, Paul tells us in Romans that faith is not a work and is indeed the very opposite. Therefore, I believe a sinner can believe on Christ and do so having it not be a work.

In a sense when a sinner comes to Christ they do forsake their sin. For they are coming to Christ saying heal me from my sin like a Leper. They are saying I believe help my unbelief.

Again, just to try and make a clear and comprehensive post. I once witnessed to a girl. She told me she was not yet "ready" to come to Christ. By "ready" she meant she was not righteous enough. And, in another sense she meant she was not ready to leave all her sin. However, she needed to be taught that only Christ can free her from sin. And, if only repentance is emphatically preached to her well what of preaching Christ and having His glory draw her? I told her a Leper does not clean themselves and then come to Christ. They come to Christ and He cleanses them. It then clicked with her and she decided to seek Christ. So, I believe the hinderance is two fold. One, that a sinner cannot stop sinning before coming to Christ and so therefore will not. Second, that if we only preach repentance or mainly preach it in an unbalanced way that sinners will have no draw. John wrote His Gospel speaking of Jesus that men might believe and when we preach Jesus the light is shone of the glory of God and men are drawn.

sermonindex Nov 4, 2009

What makes you think that a sinner can repent of unbelief but that a sinner cannot repent of sins? I have never read anywhere in the Bible that sinners cannot repent of their sins, but I have read where God commands them to and is grieved when they do not.