Does ALL mean ALL? | SermonIndex

sermonindex Nov 6, 2009

I'd like to bring to the table something that is vital, and possibly lost in the translation. Paul rarely spoke about people going to Hell and when it was spoken it was spoken in the past tense. Jesus spoke much about hell as if judgment was imminent. We don't hear much from the Apostles lips of people going to hell if they don't repent.

What I wish to talk about is the "ALL" in Adam and the "ALL in Christ. The first Adam was Adam, the Second Adam was the LORD from heaven. Now I have heard arguments that the "All" in Christ is not the same as the "All" in Adam. This reasoning is supported by the idea that not all are "saved". But that is not what is being addressed.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam ALL die. It has to be the same in Christ. In Adam "All" died. Why bother to link these words, "even so"?

I think there is a mystery here that is hard to grasp. Did Christ make atonement for all men, "Once for all"? We believe that He took Himself being a man, representing man and nailed it to the cross. We say, "He died in our stead". Can we grasp the idea that the "All" in Adam is the same as the "All" in Christ?

I would like to hear from those who will allow the Holy Spirit to penetrate traditional mindsets and break through the shadows and obtain something that might have been lost to what Jesus did for all mankind. I don't want to know what your denomination teaches, rather what the Spirit is saying.

Let me leave with this portion of scripture.

Acts 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:12 Wherein were all manner of four footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.~~[b]~~15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.[/b]

sermonindex Nov 6, 2009

“For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19:

A.\tIf we are going to apply the first section of the passage unconditionally and universally, we must also apply the second section of the passage unconditionally and universally, since the language for both is the same. If the first section means mankind is universally and unconditionally condemned in Adam, then the second section would mean that mankind is universally and unconditionally justified through Jesus.

B.\tBy Adam’s disobedience of eating from the tree, Adam provided all mankind with the opportunity of choosing to be sinners, since moral knowledge has been granted to all men. A sinner is an individual who voluntarily chooses contrary to their moral knowledge. The result of one man’s disobedience (eating from the tree of knowledge) was that many were made sinners (men have chosen to be sinners).

C.\tBy Christ’s obedience of hanging on the tree, Christ has provided all mankind with the opportunity of choosing to be saved, since remission of sin has been offered to all men upon condition of their repentance and faith.

D.\tThe word “made” used in these passages is not referring to a constitutional change, but referring to a conditional position which requires the consent of the will. Being a sinner is conditional upon choosing to sin. Likewise, being justified is conditional upon choosing to repent and believe.

E.\tThis passage is not teaching that we contributed to Adam’s sin, but that Adam contributed to our sin. It says by Adam’s actions we have become sinners (We have chosen to sin).

L

Leo_Grace Nov 6, 2009

DeepThinker wrote:
What I wish to talk about is the "ALL" in Adam and the "ALL in Christ. The first Adam was Adam, the Second Adam was the LORD from heaven. Now I have heard arguments that the "All" in Christ is not the same as the "All" in Adam. This reasoning is supported by the idea that not all are "saved". But that is not what is being addressed.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
In Adam ALL die. It has to be the same in Christ. In Adam "All" died. Why bother to link these words, "even so"?
I think there is a mystery here that is hard to grasp. Did Christ make atonement for all men, "Once for all"? We believe that He took Himself being a man, representing man and nailed it to the cross. We say, "He died in our stead". Can we grasp the idea that the "All" in Adam is the same as the "All" in Christ?

I think the meaning of the second "all" becomes clearer when one goes on to the next two verses. The first two verses you quoted should not be separated from the next two, which clarify the meaning:

~~[i]~~1Co 15:21-24 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: ~~[b]~~Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him[/b]. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.[/i]

It is clear here that the second "all" refers to Christ and all who belong to him by their faith. It is they who "will be made alive" with Christ who was the firstfruits of this spiritual harvest. The last verse excludes everyone else.

I hope this helps.

sermonindex Nov 6, 2009

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I exhort that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It seems clear from this Scripture and obviously John 3 that God loves the whole world and sent His Son to die for all. It is also clear that all men would not choose to believe in Jesus(with the proper understanding of the word "believe," obviously) Also in Revelations there are those who take the mark of the beast and they are clearly lost for eternity. And again there are those who seek to gain their lives and they lose them eternally and those who lose their lives for His sake who gain eternal life. Just some Scriptures to ponder especially in light of eternal damnation for those who reject the sacrifice of Calvary, which of course was made for all..........Frank

H

Heydave Nov 6, 2009

I was reading this the other day in my daily readings. To me it seems very clear and is a great truth.

All men (every person) is in Adam (of his seed) and therefore every man dies as a result.
Only one way of escaping this......

The same principle is that now ALL that are IN CHRIST will be made alive. Only those who are in Christ (of His seed) will be made alive. Who are these? Those who are born AGAIN of His seed 1 Peter 1:23. This is consistent with all of scripture. 'If you have the Son you have life' 1 John 5:12

This is the Gospel and it is marvelous!

Edit: Just to clarify. The whole world is in Adam, but the whole world is certainly NOT in Christ!

H

hmmhmm Nov 6, 2009

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" Although a thousand particulars of "his judgments and of his ways are unsearchable" to us, and past our finding our; yet may we discern the general scheme running through time into eternity. "According to the counsel of his own will," the plan he had laid before the foundation of the world, he created the parent of all mankind in his own image; and he permitted all men to be made sinners, by the disobedience of that one man, that, by the obedience of one, all who receive the free gift may be infinitely holier and happier to all eternity. John Wesley

sermonindex Nov 6, 2009

By Adam’s disobedience of eating from the tree, Adam provided all mankind with the opportunity of choosing to be sinners, since moral knowledge has been granted to all men. A sinner is an individual who voluntarily chooses contrary to their moral knowledge. The result of one man’s disobedience (eating from the tree of knowledge) was that many were made sinners (men have chosen to be sinners).

It's hard to blame someone who wasn't fully equipped with the knowledge of the consequences. For example, we know that the wages of sin is death, we have an understanding of what death is, Adam did not. He was created without the knowledge of good and evil. All he knew and understood was life, and the God that he walked with in the cool of the day. Nothing in that gardened died, there was no experience of separation. There were no tombstones to remind us that we will join them one day. When God said, "In the day that you eat thereof thou shalt surely die". I can see Adam standing there asking within himself, "What is death"? Like a child curious to know more, wanted to eat the cookie.

We've given the command, "The day that you eat from the cookie jar your going to get a slap". A child that has never been slapped asks, "What is a slap"? What is so bad about this tree, what is so bad about that cookie that I can't eat thereof?

Forgive me for what I am about to say, it's as if God wanted him to eat of it. I know I know, blasphemy, right?

But wasn't Christ slain BEFORE the foundations of the world? Therefore it was necessary for man to sin in order to bring in the cure.

Having that tree in the garden wasn't really a test. Adam lacked wisdom and understanding. We have more understanding then he did because we see the scriptures and know all about sin and the destruction it brings, but Adam did not. Jesus had this knowledge to know good and evil Genesis 3:22, Adam did not.

What if he did know? He having no sin nature, but knew what sin brought about. He probably would have cut the tree down, uproot it, or build a wall around it so no one could touch it. Isn't that what we do in our own lives? We get rid of the thing that is causing us to sin? But Adam didn't have this knowledge. To me, it wasn't a test at all.

This is why I am asking the question.

L

Leo_Grace Nov 6, 2009

Dear DeepThinker,

I say this in Christ's love - you are thinking too much. If you are obsessed with fully understanding and scrutinizing the ways of God, you will end up frustrated. As scripture says:

~~[i]~~Isa 40:13-14 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?[/i]

It was the Lord Jesus himself who taught us:

~~[i]~~Mk 10:15 [color=CC3300]"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”[/color][/i]

Do not spend you energies trying to understand God's ways. Seek instead to simply trust and obey. Your confidence should be found in your faith, not in your understanding.

M

MaryJane Nov 6, 2009

Leo Wrote:Do not spend you energies trying to understand God's ways. Seek instead to simply trust and obey. Your confidence should be found in your faith, not in your understanding.
_____-

This is very good advice for all of us. I believe there is even a verse that applies here:-)Proverbs 3:5

God Bless
maryjane

H

Heydave Nov 6, 2009

Leo wrote:

I say this in Christ's love - you are thinking too much. If you are obsessed with fully understanding and scrutinizing the ways of God, you will end up frustrated. As scripture says:Isa 40:13-14 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

AMEN to this. In trying to be wise we can become fools 1 Corinthians 1:20

B

BeingMolded Nov 6, 2009

Quote:Deep Thinker Wrote;

Forgive me for what I am about to say, it's as if God wanted him to eat of it. I know I know, blasphemy, right?

Brother you forgot that God has all knowledge, past, present, and future. He knew the choice Adam and Eve were going to make before He ever created them. Thats why He had a plan in place for their sin and our sin. He knows the choice everyone of us are going to make but He loves us and reaches out to us so "that ALL men MIGHT be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
It is hard for us to comprehend with our finite minds the infinite ways of God. At imes probably all of us have wondered how God could have no begining and no end. Thats because again our limited finite minds cannot comprehend all the ways of God, but in order to be saved we have to accept His inspired word the Bible and by faith believe what it says and not dwell on questions that we don't understand. If we stay true to Him and follow His commandmants we will have all eternity to ask all the questions we want to.However I feel all our questions will be forgotten when we come into the presence of a Holy God.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2009

Christ was "ordained" BEFORE the foundation of the world (1 Cor. 2:7), because God knew the fall was a possibility and therefore took the necessary preparations. God being omniscient knows all the future possibilities. And God, being good and wise, makes all the necessary preparations.

Christ was "slain" AT the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8), which is when the fall of Adam happened. The atoneement was not certain until it was necessary.

It was not that sin was necessary so that the atonement would take place, but that the atonement was necessary because sin took place.

Sin was not God's plan. Sin broke the heart of God (Gen. 6:5-6). And "to obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Sam. 15:22) the Bible says. God would have preferred a sinless universe that didn't need an atonement, then to have a sinful universe that needed an atonement.

If a fireman went around and started fires, so that he could get the "glory" of publicly putting them out, that would be wrong! And if God planned the fall of Adam and Eve, so that He could get the glory of our salvation, that would be wrong! Sin was not God's plan. Sin was man's free will choice. God is not the author of sin, we are!

sermonindex Nov 7, 2009

I say this in Christ's love - you are thinking too much

:-P I laughed when I read that brother. I like thinking the deep things of God.

I am not scrutinizing God at all, please don't misconstrue my questioning. I am totally 100% fascinated as to how He brought this wonderful salvation into our midst. I am not afraid to say that God was very much involved with the processes that took place in that garden, and too me it's mind boggling, and I am not putting God on trial. The more I know the more I love Him for telling me and to show Himself to me. The same God that went up to Calvary was the same God that roared out of Sinai.

His infinite wisdom and knowledge are not too high that we cannot reach them, He gives it to them that seek Him for it. And everything that He does whether they be in heaven or on earth, they are done for His good pleasure. And it's all good, even when it looks evil.

Paul said of Jesus that "He thought it not robbery to be equal with God". For many they are content to just read that and accept that, but I on the other hand would like to know why and in searching, I shall find because He said, "seek and ye shall find".

Do not spend you energies trying to understand God's ways

For you this may be your direction, for me, it's the direction that is part of my make up, to know God and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. Knowing God is knowing His ways. And yes, we should always Trust and Obey. I have absolutely no giftings, there is nothing about me that one can say "He's a man of God". I can't even talk right. However, I seek to know God in a deeper way, yea the deep things of God. He has deposited this longing in me to long for His ways and to understand them. The more wisdom and understanding I seek the more folly I see, because wisdom is not found in flesh nor is it found in this world, it's found only in one place, God. Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom and with all thy getting get understanding. These are the most precious things that I know and it will cost me everything to obtain it.

Thank you for your thoughts, I do appreciate them very much.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2009

If a person says that God wanted mankind to sin, it is not that they are thinking too much, but that they are thinking falsely.

In the words of KingJimmy, "repent of such heresy".

It amazes me that if a person says you can live free from sin, he is called a heretic. But if a person says that God has planned for us to be sinful, he is considered orthodox.... What a compromised and apostate Christianity we have today.

S

savannah Nov 7, 2009

"If one is to live by God's words, then it is necessary to make certain that what we are living by truly is a word or words that have proceeded from God. This requires the testing of the translation one is using. And it requires as much study of the original languages from which a translation is made as can be done in the time God's providence has allotted. It is well to remember that all men are to be juged by the words which God has spoken through the prophets and apostles. It is not enough to simply have a general sense of scripture...

It is a principle alien to true christianity to rest on men's interpretation of the words of God. No man ever has authority in himself, it is the Spirt that witnesses to the truth. Nevertheless, one is a servant of God only if he or she can give a complete demonstration of what he says from the Scriptures. And to be sure that there is no change of the emphasis that God himself has given, this calls for a healthy search of the meaning of the original word written, in its complete context." (Jay P. Green, Sr.)

Thus saith the LORD,

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11

"Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:15

"But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. " John 10:26

The very subject matter here is the atoning death of Christ in the first two verses. Here Christ Himself tells us who He is dying for. And the third verse excludes these who He is speaking to, as Christ said to them 'you are not of My sheep'.

Furthermore,

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood." Acts 20:28

"Husbands, love your wives, even as the Messiah loved his church, and delivered himself up for it" Eph. 5:25

In these two verses above we again have the subject of His atoning death. He explicitly tells us again that He died for 'the flock','the Church of God',and 'his church'.

In the following verse in Hebrews we again see 'the sheep' as the objects of His atoning 'blood of the eternal covenant'.

"Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant" Heb. 13:20

"And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

In the prophecy above we're given the intent and purpose of Christ coming and dying. It is not to make men save-able(savable)but rather that 'He shall save His people'. And He did so according to His promise in His Word. Glory be to His Name!

Nowhere in Scripture is such a concept taught or implied, that Christ came to make men savable.

"For the Son of Man also did not come to be waited upon, but to wait on others, and to give His life as the redemption-price for a multitude of people." Mark 10:45

Above we have the atoning death of Christ as the redemption-price not for all without exception, but in agreement with the whole counsel of His Word, for 'a multitude of people'.

Mark 14:24 And he said to them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sin.

Again, Jesus Himself tells his disciples (and us) that His blood is being shed for 'the remission of sin' for many, not all without exception.

Thus saith the LORD,

Heb. 9:11-15 But the Messiah who came, was a High Priest of the good things which he wrought: and he entered into the great and perfect tabernacle, which was not made with hands and was not of these created things. And he did not enter with the blood of goats and calves; but with the blood of himself, he entered once into the sanctuary, and obtained eternal redemption.
For if the blood of goats and calves, with the ashes of a heifer, was sprinkled upon them that were defiled, and sanctified them as to the purification of their flesh; then how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purge our conscience from dead works, so that we may serve the living God? And for this reason he became the Mediator of the new covenant, that he might by his death be redemption, to them who had transgressed the first covenant; so that they, who are called to the eternal inheritance, might receive the promise.

Just as the old covenant sacrifices were for His chosen people by the High Priest as a type,so in the new our High Priest Christ Himself was a sacrifice for His chosen people,His elect of both Jew and Gentile.

"All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27

Luke 10:22, "All things are delivered to me by my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

L

Logic Nov 7, 2009

Heydave wrote:
I was reading this the other day in my daily readings. To me it seems very clear and is a great truth.
All men (every person) is in Adam (of his seed) and therefore every man dies as a result.
Only one way of escaping this......
The same principle is that now ALL that are IN CHRIST will be made alive. Only those who are in Christ (of His seed) will be made alive. Who are these? Those who are born AGAIN of His seed 1 Peter 1:23. This is consistent with all of scripture. 'If you have the Son you have life' 1 John 5:12
This is the Gospel and it is marvelous!
Edit: Just to clarify. The whole world is in Adam, but the whole world is certainly NOT in Christ!

Consider this:
Adam & Eve were made from dust (flesh and blood).
Jesus was made from a woman (Galatians 4:4) therefore, Jesus was made of dust also.

We also know that [color=660000]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God[/color] (Corinthians 15:50); it never could have, even if Adam & Eve had never sinned.

My point is that ~~[b]~~ALL[/b] who are born are "in Adam" no matter who they are/were. ~~[b]~~All who are BORN[/b] are of the first Adam including Jesus.

~~[b]~~This is truth:[/b]
Jesus was "sown" in corruption; And He was raised in incorruption"
Jesus was sown in dishonor; and He was raised in glory: sown in weakness; and was raised in power.
Jesus was sown a natural body & Jesus was raised a spiritual body (1Corinth 15:42-44).

sermonindex Nov 7, 2009

If a person says that God wanted mankind to sin, it is not that they are thinking too much, but that they are thinking falsely.

Who is ever thinking that way IS thinking falsely. If your interpreting my words to mean that, your interpretation is clearly wrong.

It amazes me that if a person says you can live free from sin, he is called a heretic

I agree with you! Alas I have never found such a person, save Jesus Christ Himself. But it is possible to live above sin, because it says, "IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father Christ Jesus the righteous". That "IF" is important to note. It doesn't say, "when" we sin, but IF we sin, which is telling us that it's not a normal practice of the believer to continue practicing sin. But IF we sin, we have the remedy Christ Jesus our LORD.

sermonindex Nov 7, 2009

The atonement gives all men the opportunity to be saved. Jesus died for everyone, so that if anyone repents of their sins and trusts in Christ, they can be pardoned by God. Jesus didn't die so we could be saved in our sins, but from our sins. Jesus didn't die so God could give us a license to sin, but so that we could be forgiven of our sins if we forsake our sins.

The atonement was made for all men, but not all men are saved. Many are still under the wrath of God. God still has wrath after the atonement for those whom Jesus died for. We are saved from God's wrath at conversion, not at Calvary. Calvary made it possible for God to turn from His wrath. But God does not turn from His wrath until sinners turn from their sins.

If a man is drowning and we throw him a life preserver, we have made his rescue possible. But until he decides to grab a hold of that life preserver, that life preserver doesn't actually save his life. God has given us His Son, making our salvation possible. But until we decide to make Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, He doesn't actually save us. He saves us when we are converted, not before.

The atonement is unlimited, but salvation is limited. The atonement was made for us, without us having to met any conditions whatsoever. But God's forgiveness and mercy is conditional.

sermonindex Nov 8, 2009

The atonement gives all men the opportunity to be saved. Jesus died for everyone, so that if anyone repents of their sins and trusts in Christ, they can be pardoned by God. Jesus didn't die so we could be saved in our sins, but from our sins. Jesus didn't die so God could give us a license to sin, but so that we could be forgiven of our sins if we forsake our sins.
The atonement was made for all men, but not all men are saved. Many are still under the wrath of God. God still has wrath after the atonement for those whom Jesus died for. We are saved from God's wrath at conversion, not at Calvary. Calvary made it possible for God to turn from His wrath. But God does not turn from His wrath until sinners turn from their sins.
If a man is drowning and we throw him a life preserver, we have made his rescue possible. But until he decides to grab a hold of that life preserver, that life preserver doesn't actually save his life. God has given us His Son, making our salvation possible. But until we decide to make Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, He doesn't actually save us. He saves us when we are converted, not before.
The atonement is unlimited, but salvation is limited. The atonement was made for us, without us having to met any conditions whatsoever. But God's forgiveness and mercy is conditional.

That is sound soteriology!