Effective Praying

I didn't want to "taint" the other post with my personal speculations, so I am starting this one. I am reading E.M. Bounds right now and Ravenhill has been one of my greatest influences. However, I have often wondered something about these men and others like them. What was the effect of their praying and intercession? I know that we may not be able to tell here on earth, but it just makes me wonder. Why do we listen to men about prayer if there's little to no proof that there prayer was effective? I mean, sure, we can speculate about how their prayer truly was effective, but from what I can tell it wasn't apparent. Now I have my own theory about Ravenhill that has let me believe that his prayer was extremely effective, but did revival really come to where he was, how he was praying for it? How about Bounds? Yeah, he has a lot of great things to say about prayer, but what was the fruit of his prayers? Once again, one can formulate theories or just give the classic "just because we can't really tell right now doesn't mean..." but what gives these men a more legitmate platform to talk about these things? And why do we listen to and believe them? Just because they read a lot of books and talked a lot about it and seemed to be extreme? But did it work? This has been troubling me for some time now so I just wanted to get it out there. I think other perspectives would be really helpful.

Dear Todd and Friends,I think I recognise the same dissatisfied urgency in your words, Todd, as I find in my own heart.The men of old had something to say about the fellowship with the Lord because of their personal experience of the ministry of the interior.But, I find, or better we all find, this kind of distress, this kind of displeasure in relation to the results on the horizontal level. Ravenhill expresses this dissatisfaction in repeated calls for men of stature, who dare to give themselves to the Altar: “We need to get humble enough, low enough, desperate enough, hungry enough, concerned enough , passionate enough broken enough, passionate enough, clean, enough and prayerful enough, then God will send us a revival….” – Sodom had no Bible.Words like these produce a holy anxiety – I must lay hold of the ways and means to be able to be heard in Heaven for the sake of the glory of God. Then this may cause certain results on Earth.Todd, you do well in bringing forth this provocative question.We need to walk an inner path with God which produces results in the seen, a presence of Christ to be ministered into our daily surroundings.Lars

Reminds me of what Jim Cymbala said: "I despaired at the thought that my life might slip by without seeing God show himself mightly on our behalf. Carol and I didn't want merely to mark time. I longed and cried out for God to change everything- me, the church, our passion for people, our praying. ....always preaching about thepower of the Word and the Spirit, but never seeing it."From "Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire"It appears his prayers were answered, why not the others?Could it be that Cymbala was able to rally his church around the central focus of being a praying church? Power in numbers? I am speculating here of course, when Peter was locked up there was quite a few together praying but I wouldn't want to make that some type of formula.I do catch your drift though, and follow along the line of thinking in 'yet future'...Is it not possible that God has used these men to prompt just a question as this? To spur us on?I also tend to be a 'bottom line' thinker.Since I believe that God never waste's anything, be it suffering, financial setback...ALL things work together for good ....So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all.Surely more questions than answers..

Do we dare to speak about effective prayer as understanding, or at least being in line with God’s sovereign choice of time or timing, specific vessel and circumstances.One man is seemingly enough at times. Sometimes unity among believers is an imperative.The big gatherings are seldom a solution. They are rather to be perceived as an obstacle, the way we conduct them.A prayer team carrying on for 100 years created a missions effort that has few equals.It looks like it all boils down to how God want to use our intercession. We need to look for a very special dynamics, an essence which makes it fit together with heavenly incense – Rev 8:3One has not prayed until it is all prayed through.You are not finished in prayer until you have prayed through.Do we have patience enough to wait before the Lord on his terms.

Todd,I had actually put my Ravenhill books aside for a while during a spiritually cool time in my life do to the same thought. I begin to wonder what was point of all the time that this man spent in prayer when for the most part America has remained unchanged. I began to trade in Ravenhills prayer approach for the man made approach at being effective for God. To me it seamed that it's the great motivators and leaders who were truly making a difference. Men who were building great churches because of there great leadership and ability to motivate. I read books on leadership, time management, etc. During this time in my life, prayer was something I did, not someting I lived (Oh how cold I really was!). For a while Ravenhill was old news in my life. It has only been during these past few months that my love for him has once again returned. With the return of this love for his writings comes the questing again - What did all his prayer get him? Now I have an answer.His prayer may not have changed the world, but I am sure that it has changed my life. I have never read anyone's writing that effect me as Ravenhill. His books burn me in the heart. As I read his books I can't hardly get through a chapter without falling on my face before God. Where does this power come from?..... He was a man of prayer. It is obvious that he has effected the lives of many of us on this sight, I believe that his prayers are still changing the world through us. Where I now find my leadership and self help books dull and lifeless, Ravenhill's writings remain on fire. He did not pray in vain. If my life and prayers are spent to inspire just on person to hunger after God as Ravenhil has inspired me, it will have been spent well.PJ

your quote "So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all."John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Thanks everyone. I believe I agree with all of you. And I have had similar experiences with Ravenhill. Both his writings and his sermons stir me up. I guess this is more of a general question. WHy do we listen to people who talk about revival and how to get it but don't experience it over those that talk about it and experience it? I don't care how much they stir me, this just seems strange. They may be right about a lot of things, but wrong in some areas. THis is one reason why I am so attracted to FInney and his works. He talked it and walked it. I am in no way belittleing the works and accomplishments (be they obvious or not) of these other men, but it just makes sense to me to read about revival from men who lived it and brought it with them. It makes sense to read about how to pray from men who had such obvious success with it. It doesn't mean others are wrong, but since we only have so much time for reading, I would think it wise to start and focus on those who were proven effective. For me, Ravenhill might be in this category, but not for necessarily obvious reasons, some of which others have already mentioned. He is more mysterious to me which is great. Yes, we may never know how effective any man truly has been in prayer, and therefore cannot judge. I guess it's just a simple thing of logic I am dealing with here. Who shall we go to for advice? God must lead us, but some sources seem to have been stamped "valid" by the obvious effects they had. It doesn't mean everything they wrote is right, but it's a good/better bet than someone who didn't experience what they taught. As my friend told me yesterday:"Don't take stock in men. Only take stock in God."

just another thought!Ravenhill and Finney lived in two totally different times. I personally believe that if Finney lived in our time that he would not experience the same effectiveness in ministry as he did during his time. There was sin conscienceness on the earth during his time, covicition came easier (my beliefe!). In our day there is really no such thing as sin, making any real move of God that much more difficult. I believe that the man of God for this hour will have to be more than Finney or any other man of the past.Just my thoughts,PJ

Is it not God who moves according to His own good pleasure? In His own timing?Moses never saw the promised land.Is it men who produce the desired results or is it results produced by God through the use of man?Here is another way to look at it. What if God were to jump into the middle of this conversation and say "Brethren, I am proud of the way you have sought after Me, I have heard your prayers. I am going to send a revival that the world has yet to ever see, nor will ever be seen again. Now, some of you may be around to see it and others of you will not because I will be taking you home to be with me before it comes. If you do not continue in prayer, if you do not continue to seek Me with all your heart and pray for this, if you do not proclaim it in the church, I will not send it and the world will suffer great loss because you did not adhere to this word I have sent you."This would put us in quite a dilema. In fact it is the dilema we are in right now. If He were to promise it unconditionaly, we would in our naturalness, our ever fluctuating moods eventualy just fall into the easy habit of 'why bother He is going to do it anyway'. If it was attached with conditions to pray and fast and seek and we knew that we may well miss it, again we would fall into the same trap, 'why bother, I may not live to see it anyway'.So the last option is the only reasonable one. Pray, seek Him with all your heart, mind and spirit, it may be incumbant on us to secure it for our children or even our childrens children.Besides, there is also the possibilty that we may just behold it with our own eyes!Shall we give up, after those who travailed in prayer before us, making us "the generation that grew weary"?Or will we take the baton and run?Great are the mysterys of God.I pray this makes sense.

Yeah brother!Let's take up the baton!Let's go for it!

There may not be as much sin conciousness in our time on the earth... but I believe one of our problems is that there isn't much fire in our time. If there was fire, there would be more conciousness. Another thing is that we are "fishers of men" fishing for a certain type of fish... the rich that can fund the building projects and those that we want, not the ones that really want it. Strange to say, but it's true. We'd rather have a rich and handsome person come to our services than a ugly and poor person. I believe, aside from this, that everyone has that "God shaped vaccume" in their life that they are longing to fill. I believe everyone has a basic knowledge of what sin is and that they are committing sin, they just don't want to face it. ***Experiment*** I acted like a 100% liberal and acted like it was "O.K." for others to be homosexual. I had a few conversations with them and made it clear that I thought there was nothing wrong with it (of course I do, but this was long ago). They still insisted that it was not a choice, but it was hereditary (which I don't believe). Even they had a conciousness that it was wrong, and they try to escape that with the "it's not my fault, it's the way I am" routine. Regardless of whether or not you believe this, I don't want to get in a discussion about it, but even when the social "taboo's" of homosexuality are taken away, they still feel convicted enough of it, to the point where they feel they must not take blame for it, but place the blame on God. I do believe that we are placed in this time period for a reason, we are handed the tools, and we are supposed to be following the instructions of our maker to be doing his work. I believe we have what we need. *WE* are the Finney's, the Ravenhill's, the Wesley's. The world is ripe, the overripe wheat is beginning to fall to the ground, it is so ripe. "White and ready to harvest", Jesus said it himself. The world has a sin conciousness, some sort of one. They just need to be presented the truths of the bible...Lets Go!

Zapthycat wrote:I do believe that we are placed in this time period for a reason, we are handed the tools, and we are supposed to be following the instructions of our maker to be doing his work. I believe we have what we need. *WE* are the Finney's, the Ravenhill's, the Wesley's. The world is ripe, the overripe wheat is beginning to fall to the ground, it is so ripe. "White and ready to harvest", Jesus said it himself. The world has a sin conciousness, some sort of one. They just need to be presented the truths of the bible...Lets Go!I hear ya! At times I have ached to live in a time long ago, but most recently I realize that God placed me at this time in history for a reason. What an awesome responsibility! He did not place me here to live my life in vain. We must step up and become the people that God intended for us to be. We must give up our rights to ourselves and take seriously the thing of God. 2nd Timothy 2:4 No one who wareth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life...Not only are we the Ravenhills, Finneys, etc - but much greater still, we are called to be like Christ. His is the standard that I am reaching for. In this day and time nothing else will do. It is exciting to see that others are being stirred. Is it coincidence that so many are fealing the same thing?How did I ever live with out this burning in my heart?!! What did I ever find exciting in the world?!! How can others not see what I see? How can anyone take lightly the things of God?! Oh, God, please open their eyes!PJ

We'd rather have a rich and handsome person come to our services than a ugly and poor person.If he is full of the spirit you could put a stray dog up there for all I care! (remember Baalam's donkey!)I have a vauge recollection of a story about an eloquent speaker/preacher that gave an outstanding message finishing with a certain passage and the crowd stood and applauded.An old man (maybe an elder) got up and read the same exact passage, straight forward....and the people wept.

PJIs it coincidence that so many are fealing the same thing?How did I ever live with out this burning in my heart?!! What did I ever find exciting in the world?!! How can others not see what I see? How can anyone take lightly the things of God?! Oh, God, please open their eyes!"coincidence"Just started a new post in the lounge on this interesting 'phenomenon', would love to hear your feedback...boy, this is getting very interesting.P.S. since I had to look up the spelling of 'phenomenon'...here is a definition:"an outword sign of the working of a law of nature" And what is our new nature?;-)

crsschk wrote:P.S. since I had to look up the spelling of 'phenomenon'... My dictionary now gets alot more use. With out the benefit of 'spell check' I find myself often looking up words, trying to avoid the embarrasment of posting too many misspelled words. Smith Wigglesworth (Who did not recieve the a formal education, and who only learned to read in his twenties) wrote a letter one time and apparently spelled 'Holy Spirit' several different ways. When the recipiant of the letter brought this to Wigglesworth attention he ask, "Did you understand what it meant?" When the recipiant said that he did, Wigglesworth replied, "then that's all that really matters". Hmmm, that just might become my new motto. PJ

Quote:"Smith Wigglesworth (Who did not recieve the a formal education, and who only learned to read in his twenties) wrote a letter one time and apparently spelled 'Holy Spirit' several different ways. When the recipiant of the letter brought this to Wigglesworth attention he ask, "Did you understand what it meant?" When the recipiant said that he did, Wigglesworth replied, "then that's all that really matters". Hmmm, that just might become my new motto."I like that. That's good stuff. Do you remember where you read or heard about that?

I read it in one of his biographys. Probably in "Smith Wigglesworth, The Secret of His Power". I'll try to look it up tonight and let you know.PJ

It was the book I thought...Smith Wigglesworth, The Secret of His PowerBy; Albert Hibbertpg. 29Exact wording:Smith gave all he had, even in relation to grammar, to his Lord. He once wrote a letter to a university graduate. The next time this person saw Smith, he said, "You know, you spelled the title of the Holy Spirit seven different ways in your letter."Wigglesworth replied, "Did you understand it?""Oh, yes."Then Wigglesworth said, "Thank God, that's all that matters."PJ

That's kinda funny, because that's what I say when I misspell something to someone. Especially when chatting.It's the end result that matters, the traditions of men avail little if anything.