church baptism by setting captives free

I am glad you have started this thread.

I too was baptized and was taught very thoroughly about what baptism meant, that was nearly 20 years ago but now I have dilemma.
Romans 6:4-6 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

After finishing a time of prayer and fasting God made me aware of a remainder of sin was still embedded in me call it what you want the old man or sinful nature.

So when I read the verse above I see that there is a baptism of Christ that does do away with the sin nature (old man) but I was also taught as you were taught that and I quote from your post.

bible4life said:

"Finally, it means His death struck the final blow to our sin natures, providing a completely adequate salvation from sin and sins: we are personally identified with this accomplishment."

So I come away from the baptism of water believing that my Old man was dealt with at the Baptism of water but then God shows me nearly 19 years later that was not the case and it still remains.

So this leads me to believe that the Baptism with water does not accomplish death to the sin nature (Old man) as I was taught.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This then leads me to believe that the Baptism into Christ is a completely different thing from the Baptism with Water.

1.Baptism into Christ sets you free from the Old man your sinful nature.

2.Baptism with Water does not free you from the Old man (sinful nature) and is only symbolic.

This my dilemma what is the Baptism into Christ?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I read this verse and I see 3 baptisms’s mentioned

1.\tBaptize you with water unto repentance.
2.\tBaptize you with the Holy Ghost.
3.\tBaptize you with Fire.

Right know I am leaning to the baptism of fire is the one that causes the death blow to our sinful nature (Old man).

I hope that the Holy Spirit opens up the scripture to me and gives me understanding of it and at a later date Christ's Baptism deals the the death blow to my Sinful nature.

It should be noted that, in context, Matthew 3:11 the baptism with fire could actually be judgment on unbelievers. Immersing them in fires of judgment, as it were.

Note what John says in the verse 10 - "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit [b]is cut down and thrown into the fire[/b]."

Consider John Gill's exposition of the passage:

[i]"Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning"; the same with "the Holy Ghost and fire" here, or the fire of the Holy Ghost, or the holy Spirit of fire; and is the same with "the wrath to come", and with what is threatened in the context: the unfruitful trees shall be cut down, and cast into the fire", and the "chaff" shall be burnt with unquenchable fire". And as this sense best agrees with the context, it may the rather be thought to be genuine; since John is speaking not to the disciples of Christ, who were not yet called, and who only on the day of Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, in the other sense of this phrase; but to the people of the Jews, some of whom had been baptized by him; and others were asking him questions, others gazing upon him, and wondering what manner of person he was; and multitudes of them continued obdurate and impenitent under his ministry, whom he threatens severely in the context."[/i]

With care in Christ...

So, a baptism of fire is a judgment on unbelievers?

I think you are alluding to that, rather than saying it is.

Luke 12v49, "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled"

Is He speaking of the judgment of unbelievers here?

The following verse speaks of baptism, and since by this time Jesus had been baptised already, He had to be refering to the Holy Spirit.

I'll leave it at that.

Yes, I'm alluding to it as a possibility in light of what John says in verse 10. Who is being thrown into fire in the verse immediately prior to verse 11? The chaff. I'm saying it's very possible that John then talks about the chaff being immersed (baptized) in fire in verse 11. It flows with the context of the passage.

I had a feeling this interpretation wouldn't be very well received as many people here hold to this passage as talking about a baptism of fire in a more charismatic sense. I was just tossing out the possibility that it could mean something different in light of the context.

With care in Christ...

TaylorOtwell wrote:

Consider John Gill's exposition of the passage:

[i]"Or rather, this phrase is expressive of the awful judgments which should be inflicted by him on the Jewish nation; when he by his Spirit should "reprove" them for the sin of rejecting him; and when he should appear as a "refiner's fire", and as "fuller's soap"; when "the day of the Lord" should "burn as an oven"; when he should "purge the blood of Jerusalem", his own blood, and the blood of the Apostles and Prophets shed in it, "from the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning";

Edit to add boldness to:- he shall purify the sons of Levi

I'm just throwing it out there for consideration. I'm not 100% settled either way. I just think it's strange that the verse immediately prior would speak of fire in terms of judgment, and then the same word would be used in terms of blessing in the very next verse.

With care in Christ...

[i]Mt 3:7-12 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. v.10: The ax is already at the root of the trees, and [u]every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire[/u].

v.11: I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and [u]with fire[/u].

v.12: His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and [u]burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire[/u].”[/i]

Taylor,

I tend to agree with your interpretation. First, John is clearly speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, as he addresses them in the prior verses, so we can expect a warning for them regarding judgment of their sin. In verse 10, the fire where the trees that do not produce good fruit will be thrown is clearly the fire of hell. The same is true for verse 12, where chaff will be thrown into the unquenchable fire of hell.

The verse in question, verse 11, is sandwiched between these two "fire of hell" verses and it tells of Christ who will baptize men with the Holy Spirit AND fire. If that baptism of fire pertains to empowerment by the Holy Spirit, it seems an unnecessary separation, since everyone already knows that the Holy Spirit brings power.

The term baptism is itself a neutral term meaning immersion. One can be baptized in sin as the opposite extreme of being baptized in Christ. In this case, the baptism of fire more logically connects to the verses that precede and follow verse 11. Immersion in fire would then also mean the fire of hell -- the result of Christ's judgment on these Pharisees and Sadducees (and other sinners) who were listening to John. He was warning them to be baptized in repentance (water) or face the baptism of fire in hell.

Thanks for your insight, brother Leo.

With care in Christ...

Matt 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I don't deny that there is a reference to hell in what John said but as we see in Acts 2:3-4 they where baptized with the Holy Ghost and Fire.

We need to consider that our God is a 'consuming fire' Heb. 12:28-29. That is part of His nature. it is His holiness.

In the light of this, God's fire will bring judgement on all sin and all sinners. Therefore any unrighteousness that comes into contact with the Holy God will be burned up and consummed. Remember what happened to Nadab and Abihu when they presumed to come into God's presence and offered profane (unholy) sacrifice; God sent His fire of judgement. Lev. 10:1-3.

When a true and correct offering is made the fire of God consumes that offering. Lev. 9:22-24. Jesus Chrst is our sin offering, so when we come to God on the basis of the scarifice of Jesus Christ we are not consumed, because the fire of God fell on Him on the cross.
Either the the sacrifice is burned up or the sinner gets burned up! Therefore when we come to God we must always make sure we do not come with un-confessed sin, but if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9. This is part of the purifying process for believers that allows the judgement of God to fall on our sins, but not on us. However if we persist in un-repentent sin we are in danger of the fire (judgement)of God falling on us. Heb. 10:26-31

So I think that the baptism of fire applies to judgement, ultimately in the final judgement of all sin, but ALSO to the ongoing purifying of believers. When the refiners fire purifies the son's of Levi (Malachi 3:2-4) it says 'Who can endure the day of His coming? Who can stand when He appears?'. I submit that only those how call upon the name of the LORD. So this is a fire of judgement that will cleanse Levi (the preisthood) of all unbelievers and purge those who do trust in the LORD from all unrighteousness.

Hope this helps and adds to the discussion.

Heydave wrote:
We need to consider that our God is a 'consuming fire' Heb. 12:28-29. That is part of His nature. it is His holiness.

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

His makes his ministers are a flaming fire the baptism of fire to me it's purity it enables us to be Holy like he is Holy.

I can't see why you always get back to judgement I do see it mention in Malachi but I also see purity and Holiness.

Heydave wrote:

When the refiners fire purifies the son's of Levi (Malachi 3:2-4) it says 'Who can endure the day of His coming? Who can stand when He appears?

What day of his coming are we speaking about here, the one 2009 years ago or the one to come these verses have a double meaning. In verse 1 of Malachi it speaks about sending his messenger who will prepare the way of the Lord.

Mark 1:2-3 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Take a look at the bits you missed out in your post.

and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

That there is the baptism of fire it's what purges us and makes us Holy.

He shall purge: meaning To free from impurities; purify, To remove (impurities and other elements) by or as if by cleansing, To rid of sin, guilt, or defilement.

That's how he makes us his flames of fire.

Colin wrote:

After finishing a time of prayer and fasting God made me aware of a remainder of sin was still embedded in me call it what you want the old man or sinful nature.

I am not going to argue with your experience brother. I just have a question. Are you sure it is that you still have an old man or an old nature, or could it be that when you were born again the old Colin died and the new Colin was resurrected as a totally new creature and that you are still in the process of being changed from glory to glory and there are still unrenewed areas of your mind and battles with the flesh (We will never be perfected in these areas until Jesus returns) See Romans 12:2. Just a thought.

I don't think baptism was ever intended to accomplish death of the old man. It is symbolic of the work that has already been done in our spirit. I am not saying that God cannot or does not often accomplish works of consecration, dedication, etc. in our lives when we are baptized. I am saying that it is not the act of baptism per se that brings about rebirth. It is symbolic of the death and rebirth that has already happened. ie., baptism by water is representative of our baptism into Christ. Both could, I guess, happen simultaneously but I think that is the exception and not the rule.

There are many different baptisms in scripture, and each is unique. Most denote an complete saturation of our lives with some aspect of the Holy Spirit is seems.

Travis

Quote:

"""I am not going to argue with your experience brother. I just have a question. Are you sure it is that you still have an old man or an old nature, or could it be that when you were born again the old Colin died and the new Colin was resurrected as a totally new creature and that you are still in the process of being changed from glory to glory and there are still unrenewed areas of your mind and battles with the flesh (We will never be perfected in these areas until Jesus returns) See Romans 12:2. Just a thought."""

How can we not be perfect in Spirit, since our rebirth, Christ is now our Spirit. I agree that we are not perfect in soul/mind or flesh body yet, but we are becoming perfect in our mind by the Mind of Christ that is now in us and by the Holy Spirit use of the Mind of Christ to the renewing of our mind. Flesh will be renewed on resurrection day and is now only quickened to contain the tripartate God, The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in us.

In Christ: Phillip