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SI posters called to be of one mind and have no divisons.

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

Here on the mighty, Sermon index, where the posters are the cream of the revival crop. Who wants to get low and be not wise in our own eyes?

I mean really. Where is the warm, humble hearts of true revival and like mind?
I am not saying we have to smile and agree even if it is blatant error. But we need to inventory ourselves on this. Below are some key scriptures calling us to be of one mind.

Now how can we achieve this here on SI?

Ro 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. {condescend...: or, be contented with mean things}

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. {divisions: Gr. schisms}

Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
(KJV)

E
enid Nov 10, 2009

I think 1 Peter 4v1 is key.

"...for he that hath suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin."

We haven't suffered.

K
KingJimmy Nov 10, 2009

I dunno, for the years I have been on SI, I have always felt a great deal of unity amongst us, even when we disagree. There is definitely room for all of us (read: me) to grow, but, I think in generally we are a pretty good bunch. When I went to the Revival Conference in Barnsdale earlier this year, I was glad to meet many of the brothers and sisters that I've discussed many topics with. Some whom I have disagreed with many times here in the forum I still felt a great affection for.

:-)

S
sojourner7 Nov 10, 2009

"If then there is any encouragement in Christ,
any consolation from love, any fellowship in Spirit,
any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete;
be of the same mind, having the same love, being
of one accord and of one mind. Do nothing from
selfish ambition or vain conceit, but with humility
regard others as better than yourselves."

What do you suppose would happen if we followed Paul's admonition ??

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Nov 10, 2009

Hi KingJimmy...

I agree. There are individuals here at SermonIndex that I have disagreed with, but the love that I hold for them is very real. Even with all of the disagreements regarding some doctrinal issues, there is a real unity by the fact that we all love our Lord and are desperate to know Him and see His Word revealed in us and in the Church.

R
rookie Nov 10, 2009

Paul calls for unity through the working of God amongst His people. Paul teaches that unity only comes after God reveals who is walking with the Lord...

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Unity is depended upon two things, God proving those who declare the truth, and those who are in error, repent.

In Christ
Jeff

L
Leo_Grace Nov 10, 2009

Good topic, thingsabove. Thank you.

[i]Ro 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.[/i]

I struggle with the above verse myself, but I have observed that those with strong faith in God, as evidenced in their lives, tend to think less of themselves, and vice-versa.

These two things: [u]Faith in God[/u] and [u]Pride in Self[/u] have an inverse mathematical relationship. When the first goes up, the second comes down; and when the first goes down, the second goes up. Basic Christian algebra. Unity is easy under the first scenario.

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

I dunno, for the years I have been on SI, I have always felt a great deal of unity amongst us, even when we disagree. There is definitely room for all of us (read: me) to grow, but, I think in generally we are a pretty good bunch. When I went to the Revival Conference in Barnsdale earlier this year, I was glad to meet many of the brothers and sisters that I've discussed many topics with. Some whom I have disagreed with many times here in the forum I still felt a great affection for.

I agree with this assessment. Even though things can get a bit heated, generally speaking we all seem to land on our feet. Some of the folks here who I have had the toughest debates here are the ones I confide privately with when I need someone to pray for me.

Some people think that to even disagree, or admit that we disagree is disunity... but far from it! To pretend that we all agree, and go along with every wind of doctrine so that there are never any disagreements is to deny the faith and be as a heathen. In fact, that type of thinking is killing the "church" in America.

I know I have voiced my disgust with the conversations here from time to time... and sometimes it's been MY fault, and not that of others. Sometimes division is caused here by someone who shows up, throws a couple of grenades and then disappears into the night. Sometimes we just flat out get some nut-jobs who show up.

And sometimes calls for "unity" on this forum come from folks who view unity as "everyone needs to stop arguing and just agree with me". Thats not unity either... thats tyranny.

But the core people here are, I believe, very much united. Differences? Yes! But we are united by one common thread... simply Jesus.

Krispy

K
Koheleth Nov 10, 2009

While I appreciate all of the kindly-worded replies, I am going to be the first one to disagree. Without mentioning any names, there is not a kindred spirit and any real appreciation or friendliness among all posters on this thread. Some have recently even denounced the salvation of others and belittled their doctrine and beliefs.

I am in hearty agreement with the original post and believe it should be more seriously considered and honored. Based on his past input, I think Greg would support this. This means it is not your personal prerogative to enact some form of church discipline or denounce those you disagree with on this forum, as has been the general behavior of quite a number to this date. My understanding of the original post is that this behavior should change. This would be most welcome by myself and others, and it [i]would[/i] be a change.

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

O.K. I have read the responses up to krisp.
I agree that the glue that gets us through the heated debates is our unified love for Jesus.

I am also aware that several have included themselves in the falling short assesment. Thats good. We have patted ourselves, just a little, on still being unified, inspite of differences.

So I would suggest we all pray and ask God to humble us even more.Also to give us better discernment on this verse;

1 Co 1:10 ¶.........that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. {divisions: Gr. schisms}

What does this really mean?? God said it through Paul. Paul expected that we could do it.

How do we do this?

A few possible suggestions.

1. let not many of you be masters,(teachers) for we all err.

Perhaps to many of us are trying to be teachers when we perhaps should be better learners?

I know that I am prone to teach. However even as I open my mouth there are times when I wish I would have said less.

2 Those who are called to teach should be very carefull of the doctrine the teach.

hmm...well yea...understand true essential doctrine vs. non essential??

I offer these as things to meditate on and pray and think about and try not to forget in a week.

M
MaryJane Nov 10, 2009

Greetings

I have a question that I have been thinking and praying about for some time now. In Amos chapter 3 verse 3 "Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?"

How does this apply? Is the idea of "agree to disagree" found in the Bible among early believers as an acceptable way to deal with situations? I am just really trying to understand this, it has come up in my own walk with some. If we are one body of believers working together in union with Him to further His kingdom, then how does it work if there is no agreement?

This is and has been really confusing to me for along time to be honest.
God Bless
mj

E
elected Nov 10, 2009

We are often victims of our "environmental chill". How easy we get trapped in argument and think we have the truth and the other part should be humble enough to accept their error and change their minds about their wrong opinions.

From my experience i have found out that in my zeal for the truth i do more harm then good when i speak what i believe to be true without love and genlteness.

MaryJane:

I have a question that I have been thinking and praying about for some time now. In Amos chapter 3 verse 3 "Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?"

You can agree with you brother/sister in Christ to disagree about secondery matters that dont affect our salvation in Christ.Many of us lack the Spirit of wisdom and revelation that Paul prayed about for the ephasians.

Many dont say it or acknowledg it, but i have figured out that theological speculations have a great deal to do with our prejudices. We often read the bible with an already well shaped prejudice that is deep rooted in our subconscience.

A simple example is 5 points of Calvinism or the 5 points of Arminianism. We show so much fidelity to a narrow man-made theological system that we often interprete the bible according to the principles of our theological philosophy.

I gave you just 2 classical examples, there is no doubt that there are good points in those systems but their is no such narow theological system in the bible.

Unity is in the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Unity of faith comes as we grow in Christ to maturity of believers.Unity in sound doctrine yes but its not the 5 points of calvinism or 5 points of arminianism, its in the whole revalation of the New Testamant inspired teaching and the doctrines of the apostles and not the doctrines of reformed churches or wesleyan churches or charismatic churches and you name it.


sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

I have a question that I have been thinking and praying about for some time now. In Amos chapter 3 verse 3 "Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?"

Paul and Barnabas had a very sharp disagreement, according to scripture. Sharp enough that it was recorded for all history. Scripture never says who was right or wrong... but it resulted in their parting of the ways. AND... they [b]both[/b] went on to serve the Lord in ways that might not have happened had they not been in disagreement with each other.

Paul called Peter out in front of everyone for being a hypocrite.

All thru scripture, and even after Jesus ascended to Heaven scripture records disagreements among believers.

The unity is in our common faith in Jesus... our unity is that we believe the same thing about who Jesus was, and the salvation He came to offer us. But there are things that will never be resolved here on earth.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

I think that spiritual maturity is defined not by being unified per se but how we deal with disagreements. This seems to be Krispy's take and I agree. We all have work to do in this area and I think most can agree that it is not the disagreement itself that produces animosity or strife on the forum but the manner in which one posts their position. We've all seen the tone of some here who come across as arrogant, condescending, and self aggrandizing. And the response to such is a reaction that starts a cycle of argument.

I can't walk in agreement with a Jehovah Witness, Mormon, and others but I can be more careful in my disagreement or I can ignore a poster who I know is stirring trouble.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Nov 10, 2009

Hi Sister Mary Jane…

I have a question that I have been thinking and praying about for some time now. In Amos chapter 3 verse 3 "Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?"

How does this apply? Is the idea of "agree to disagree" found in the Bible among early believers as an acceptable way to deal with situations? I am just really trying to understand this, it has come up in my own walk with some. If we are one body of believers working together in union with Him to further His kingdom, then how does it work if there is no agreement?


I’ve been thinking about this for some time too. It seems that many believers long to return to the power and unity of the early Church. While the early Church was obviously far from perfect (since there were already some flaws apparent within the Book of Acts and within the epistles), I do understand this desire for unity. That said: I am not sure that this “unity of doctrine” was quite the same thing that some believers might suppose. I just can’t see the early Church picking apart some ideas and turning them into complicated prerequisites for doctrinal “unity.”

When I think about the childlike simplicity of a Gospel that drew children to crowd around Jesus, I am reminded about the council in Jerusalem that met to discuss the ministry of Paul to the Gentiles. Some believers had come to Syria and were insisting that Gentiles must fulfill the right of circumcision in order to be saved. This created a strong enough debate until Paul and Barnabas were appointed to accompany other believers to Jerusalem in order to meet with the apostles and elders about this question (Acts 15:1-21).

When the apostles met to consider this question, Peter stood up and reminded the brethren that the law had been a yoke that no Jews had been able to bear. He went on to remind them that it is only be grace that we are all saved – Jew and Gentile (verse 10-11). James went further, saying that we should not make it difficult for people to be saved (verse 19). In fact, the apostles wrote their conclusion in an epistle that was sent along with Paul, Barnabas, Silas and Judas. In this letter, the apostles stated, “[i] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well[/i]” (Acts 15:28-29).

This was pretty simple. There was no discussion of sectarian theological requirements for complete doctrinal “unity” or “salvation.” There was no discussion about whether or not a person is predestined to be saved…or could possibly lose their salvation or walk away from knowing and loving God. There were no mandates about music, eschatology, dress, or which available scrolls of Scripture were the most reliable or authentic. Yet I have met believers today who will part company and even dismiss the faith of those with whom they disagree about certain doctrinal peculiarities. If you want to be a “member” of many denominational churches, you must agree upon certain sectarian doctrinal prerequisites. Even many local churches require compliance with certain local doctrinal teachings just to fellowship with the congregation!

Now, I have no problem with requiring adherence to essential doctrines. However, who gets to define just what is “essential?” I have seen churches which desire to dictate whether or not men can wear facial hair! There are congregations who will expel pastors and congregants who are not “pre-trib.” There are probably congregations who will expel those who are not “post-trib” too. I fear that some of these strict doctrinal prerequisites actually work [i]against[/i] the faith. They can give some individuals a false sense of security based upon legalistic compliance with localized sectarian dogma. They might actually serve to thwart the need for individuals to “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). I have noticed that some of the people who are praying for “unity” are often praying that people will agree with those doctrinal issues that they (currently) feel certain of.

Of course, there are certain issues that are beyond debate. These are exceedingly clear from Scripture and are generally accepted by all believers. Hebrews 6:1-2 seemingly lays out some of these basic principles (such as repentance, the resurrection, faith in God and even eternal judgment). However, do we really need to agree about every last thing that is discussed under various church steeples? Should even more denominations be created in the hope to “unite” individuals around the specific things that often divide them from others?

Personally, I feel comfortable enough to fellowship with believers within a broad range of doctrinal diversity. I can worship, fellowship and break bread with a Baptist congregation in one town, a Methodist congregation in another town and a Pentecostal congregation in another. This is certainly NOT an embrace of every doctrine that might be espoused or proclaimed within these local churches (or those denominations). Rather, it is recognizing that the Body of Christ is much larger than a local church or set of beliefs that seem to vary from person-to-person and congregation-to-congregation. Even if someone doesn’t believe as I do in regard to certain peculiarities, I feel the grace to genuinely fellowship with those who profess a sincere relationship with our Lord.

:-)

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

I agree with King Jimmy.

We should really define what unity we are talking about.

What is the "Unity of the Faith"?

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13[b]Till we all come in the unity of the faith[/b] , and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Verse 11 is very clear that in order for us to come into the unity of the faith that we have the working of the 5 fold ministry. It says, "He gave SOME". The problem folks is that we have too many false one's mixed in with the "SOME". We have way too many Pastors. I say way too many because the Pastor today tries to fulfill all the other offices so that there won't be any rivals hence false doctrine.

A Pastor trying to fulfill the office of a teacher will only get into trouble by teaching false doctrine, he hasn't be called to expound, but he tries anyway, thus the end result is false teachings.

The only way a river can be free from trash is a swift current. It will push all the trash to the side and eventually down stream and into the ocean. An outpouring of God's Spirit will reveal who is and who isn't.

P
PaulWest Nov 10, 2009

We've all seen the tone of some here who come across as arrogant, condescending, and self aggrandizing. And the response to such is a reaction that starts a cycle of argument.

This is most true - and most unfortunate. One particular trademark of children is their frequent squabbling and picking on other kids in the schoolyard. Most small, upstart children have not yet learnt the beauty, peace and wisdom of minding their own business. Instead, they harbor a constant desire to project unto others whom they view as threats to their secret pride. As result, they pick sides, they form allegiances with the other "cool" kids (i.e. the most popular kids), and then take turns picking fights with those other kids who aren't part of their clique.

In Christianity we see the same - only the bullying is in the spiritual. Much of what passes for a believer's theological system is often nothing more than a gang's "color"; a means of identification and a public statement and warning to other believers with opposing colors that they will be aggressed on the spot.

The ubiquitious justification for all this seems to be "preserving the truth" - or their interpretation of the gospel as they see it. What they are doing is defending a set of ideals and shades put in their minds from the influences and surmizings of other men who once walked in the very rank and file which they find themselves today. Many of them have become so spiritually paranoid that they've long ago taken their eyes off the Common Master and have put them instead on the fellow sevants, bludgeoning them with a Sword that was never meant to pierce friendly armor.

But how can you convince an aggressor that his fellow combatant is really a friend in a different uniform? How do you stop a child from bullying his classmates? Speaking directly to them in admonishment is not enough; in their minds they are fulfulling a valiant mission. If they believed for a second that it was all a smokescreen to cover their own secret unrest and failure to content themsevles in Christ, they would at once stop and reevaluate their motives. But they are blind to it, and not only that, they'll even brandish their swords to them that now profess to see.

Through contentment and peace and joy in the Lord, discerment for the true enemy is granted by our Captain. Sometimes the enemy is very obvious, marching centerfield with drums and fifes - but other times it is guerilla warfare and sniper shots. Tactical understanding for rules of engagement is not granted to foolhardy believers who memorized just enough of their pet preacher's or pet theologian's handbook of battle. These are they who, more often than not, are responsible for either making the mistake of friendly fire, or a public nuclear air-strike when all that was needed was one strategic gunshot.

Brother Paul

L
Lysa Nov 10, 2009


thingsabove wrote:
Here on the mighty, Sermon index, where the posters are the cream of the revival crop. Who wants to get low and be not wise in our own eyes?

I mean really. Where is the warm, humble hearts of true revival and like mind?

I am not saying we have to smile and agree even if it is blatant error. But we need to inventory ourselves on this. Below are some key scriptures calling us to be of one mind.

Now how can we achieve this here on SI?


I am learning that it takes TWO to argue, if one doesn't argue back then there is no argument, is there?!!

It's our flesh brother... our innate need to be right and to set someone else straight, bro that battles. (I mean really, if we don't do it, then who will??? lolol) When we overcome the need to be right and the "need" to be God's armor bearer and to protect His holy word, then we will stop.

If God can cause the rocks to cry out worship and praise unto Him... can He? Then He is fully capable of taking care of all heretics running around on SI!! (huge grin)

Again... just my fifty cents worth, take it or leave it!

L
Leo_Grace Nov 10, 2009

Kripsy said:

The unity is in our common faith in Jesus... our unity is that we believe the same thing about who Jesus was, and the salvation He came to offer us. But there are things that will never be resolved here on earth.

Amen! You all speak the truth in the sense that the tenor of this forum changes from time to time, and all views expressed so far are accurate at certain times.

I have been blessed with a lot of encouragement and a lot of learning in this forum. I love you all.

sermonindex Nov 10, 2009

Now again,I agree that any hope of attaining unity has to start and be maintained by our love for Christ. However the apostle pauls "take" on unity is what I am trying to focus on. I may be wrong, but if we can start to agree, in unity, on what Paul said in corinthians, that will move us further down the road on being of the same mind and judgement


10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

There is a primary reason for Paul calling them to be of one mind.That reason will follow in the next vs. However there is a secondary reason perhaps not so evident.
Paul will speak on several topics all throughout the Corinthian letter. He will touch on many things that we are to be of the same mind and judgement about. Allowing fornication in the midst of the body.
Taking fellow christians before secular courts.
Relations with husbands /wives and divorce and remarriage. Circumcision. Virgins. Food offered to idols.
Headship of God, Christ, Man, women.
Spiritual gifts and there operations in the body.
Women speaking in church and a few more things before the first letter that we have to the corinthians is finished.Towards the end of the letter he will declare that they who are spiritual will know that the things he wrote are the commands of the Lord.

Now I think we can agree that we are not all of the same mind and judgement on what Paul taught about these subjects. Yet Paul is calling us to all think the same way on these topics previously laid out.

Right here is important. If I am off on what I just wrote then I will gladly adjust. I present this for us to work on and meditate and pray on. I am not calling for instant unity right this second or else. I know that some of these take some time to work through.

Back to the primary reason for the call to same mind and speaking same things.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Here Paul is coming against those in the body who would divide and call themselves of this man's teaching or that man's teaching or even to declare," well I follow Christ's teaching, not any of you apostles."

Thats a tricky one but I think it should be noted. Our understanding of christian teaching and unity is based on Christ and the Apostles teachings 'together.'
We should not view Christs teachings seperate from what the Apostles taught.


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