There are 5 Archangels: I think this is the correct order of Authority.
Michael
Gabriel
Uriel
Raphael
Zagzagiel ( Death)
And then there is the METATRON.....who is He?
Any comments are welcomed...but please...no heretic hunters....we know that only 2 are mentioned in the Bible. The others are from the Talmud. What do you think you believe?
Pilgrim
ThePilgrim wrote:
Any comments are welcomed...but please...no heretic hunters....we know that only 2 are mentioned in the Bible. The others are from the Talmud. What do you think you believe?
Its hard to ask for no heritic hunters and admit that there are only 2 that are mentioned in the Bible.
So with love, I believe that there is Michael and Gabriel. All others CANNOT be verified by the Word.
A fair Point,
Now back to Angels as a broad topic.
The Metatron hs always been associated with Messiah, and interestingly enough the title Metatron means, " he who is at the centre of the Throne"
The Jews believed that this One would save Israel.....now I find this very interesting.
Another point, I think we all believe some things that are not in the Bible, just as there is truth that is not recorded in scripture.
having said that I will back away from that as I too believe in the absolute truth of scripture.
"Another point, I think we all believe some things that are not in the Bible, just as there is truth that is not recorded in scripture."
THE PILGRIM.
Surely there is, but is it not but endless speculation, and inquisitive Presumption, to Establish biblical doctrines and pursue revelation without the Bible as our only foundation?
Actually, the word Metatron rings a little cultish to me. The web is FILLED with cultic references about it or him. I think the Lord kept the holy angels a little low key for this very reason; the obsessive fascination , like Pandora's box, that we humans have with supernatural power.
"Your Word is Truth."
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
JESUS'S HIGH PRIESTLY PRAYER.
My advice to you is to abandon any knowledge that would thwart the simplicity of His written word..[ as you have suggested...], and cast down any thought that would not agree with the bible, or be of an extra-biblical aura.
Metatron sounds like a transformer...
:-P
Brothertom wrote:Surely there is, but is it not but endless speculation, and inquisitive Presumption, to Establish biblical doctrines and pursue revelation without the Bible as our only foundation?
Well I find myself agreeing with your argument above, escept that revelation by its very nature is an unveiling within. This is a gift of God and as we all know may not be understood by all and yet be the word of God for others. I'm thinking of teh book of revelation......some have great understanding...others like Luther wanted it ripped out and burned as herecy.
Lets all pretend that that Sermonindex is not a Post Niceane or Chalcedon council.
Lets all pretend that SI exists for various reasons but has no authority to formulate doctrine?
Now if angels as a topic is offensive....lets just blot it out. My thought here are purely speculative and inquisitive. I am not suggesting any doctrinal belief on the subject and don't have any interest other than the previous post about "movies in another era" which sparked this off.
I love SI....gush!!!
IWantAnguish wrote:
Metatron sounds like a transformer...:-P
I like your mind!!!
Now be careful because you can get burned at a stake for watching a movie that promotes teen relationships, drug abuse,masturbation, alienology, and a belief that Good will conquer evil. ( Stick to Cloverfield)
Here's a thought: the Bible doesn't indicate that Gabriel is a mighty archangel. Maybe he is the smallest of angels and therefore the least terrifying to mortals and that is why God uses him as a messenger.
Heb 1:13-14
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
(14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Not sure about angels named zig-zag or metronome :-P , but one thing I do know is that I am an heir of salvation, and God has chosen that angels minister to me (act on my behalf).
Psa 91:1-16
(1) He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
(2) I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
(3) Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
(4) He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
(5) Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
(6) Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
(7) A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
(8) Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
(9) Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
(10) There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
(11) For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
(12) They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(13) Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
(14) Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
(15) He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
(16) With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
Travis.
"Now if angels as a topic is offensive....lets just blot it out. My thought here are purely speculative and inquisitive."
thePilgrim
The topic of angels is not at all offensive, and the Bible is crammed with angelic visitations and messengers. However, the discussion of them using occult knowledge and concepts..[ even if it be true ] is.
"Lets all pretend that that Sermonindex is not a Post Niceane or Chalcedon council.
Lets all pretend that SI exists for various reasons but has no authority to formulate doctrine."....Pilgrim.
You are implying that if one opposes your unbiblical revelatory discussion , that they have imposed upon themselves a greater authority to "formulate doctrine".
I'm sure that you love SI..[ "gush" ], but it is a BIBLICAL site; meaning that ideas and doctrines are discussed within the biblical sphere with the pillar as the BIBLE..[ the scripture.] being the Truth, the Whole truth, and nothing but the Truth.
When we begin to travel down paths of speculation and shadowy fiction, it becomes Endless, unprofitable, and possibly dangerous.
Colossians 2:18
"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions."
It, in itself, is a waste of time, similar to dabbling in science fiction.
"I... don't have any interest other than the previous post about "movies in another era" which sparked this off."...Pilgrim.
Many, many threads that have not promoted edifying or faith boosting thoughts have been cut off by the moderators. I didn't go to the MOVIE thread because it didn't interest me. but I see how a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Because of fictional intrigue that opened the supernatural, you follow with a little more, and now we have the "TRANSFORMER" Metraton. By the way, many DO worship him...[ google him ].
Why don't we just combine the two, and head on over to the Stephen Spielburg site, and imagine ourselves into speculative oblivion? That would be cool.
I haven't personally watched the recent movie with real actors... I only remember the cartoon / digital animation that used to show on television... probably 8-10 yrs ago.
Now be careful because you can get burned at a stake for watching a movie that promotes teen relationships, drug abuse,masturbation, alienology, and a belief that Good will conquer evil. ( Stick to Cloverfield)
Haha, I knew in the back of my mind that some brothers / sisters on the forum would look down upon me if I were to admit watching the recent blockbuster Transformers. :-P
"Haha, I knew in the back of my mind that some brothers / sisters on the forum would look down upon me if I were to admit watching the recent blockbuster Transformers."
I Want Anguish.
I actually referred to your "Transformers" moniker with admiration....and certainly do not look down on you, or anyone else who watches movies. If you belong to God, it is only HE that can convict you of SIN, if you are committing it.
Romans 14:22
"Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."
I watch some movies and TV, though less and less it seems as I grow. I would not be specific, though, because it surely could stumble some folks.
Hi everyone.
"...and God has chosen that angels minister to me (act on my behalf)."
I believe that I have possibly experienced this, in a personall and direct way before.
But before I share something about that, I want to say too that, since my conversion I have felt a strong sense of danger in becoming curious or too interested in the supernatural and angels and I have felt that no matter what experiences I have had, that I should not become too interested in looking into them. But just continue to look to God and to continue to walk forward.
About the experience,
One night after I had began to go out and share the Gospel actively, I decided I would make up some tracts and stay home on Halloween to hand them out to people that came to the door. I was just finishing the tracts on the computer and I started to become discouraged and was feeling a struggle to continue.
And then I felt a tingling on my back, like perhaps someone or something had touched me, and I felt strengthened.
So I finished them and my wife helped me cut and print them out and I went outside to meet people when they came by. Well, after so many people, one group, perhaps a family, came by and I distinctly remember that one young girl that was with them, when they were approaching the house, she looks up on the steps where I think I had been standing at the bottom, and looking back behind me she says, not too loudly, 'ohh no'. I remember her looking very directly and then when the others asked her what was wrong, she just said 'nothing'.
So, was there an angel standing there and she saw it? Did an angel come and help me?
I don't know, I think it is possbile, I even felt like it was. But like I said, I've always felt a sense of danger that I should not become too interested in these experiences, to look into them, no matter what happens.
I was living in Baltimore at the time, and going out into the neighborhood to share the Gospel. One man I met that would invite me over to his house to talk about God had been in the AOG but was not walking for the Lord anymore. He told me once how he and another man had become intensely interested in the supernatural and seeking after some experiences. I remember him saying something about angels and how in relating all of this, that it ended up in them making shipwreck. I could understand what he meant.
I love to experience something that I feel has been supernatural, or to hear about. It is so encouraging. At the same time, I've always felt that it is dangerous to become too interested in what is going on behind the scenes. Deut 29:29.
Wish you all love from God always.
Chris
1Co 6:1-3
(1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
(2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
(3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
I take my car to a mechanic who, because he is a mechanic, can work on my car for me in ways that I cannot. I still own the car, and I don't worship the mechanic because he can minister to my needs in a way that I cannot.
Likewise, angels are ministering spirits. I do not worship them because they operate in the spirit realm in ways that I am physically unable to. We, the redeemed, hold a place that angels do not and cannot hold. We shall judge angels.
Never have had what some call an encounter with angels that I know of. I guess I could have entertained some unawares.??? But I strongly believe they have been and will minister to me.
I guess we can go to seed on any topic.
Travis.
Tom Tom....whats the matter?
Are you insane? You must stop reading between the lines it will make you ill.
Again ley em reiterate that this thread has nothing to do with Doctrine. The doctrine threads are all kept in another folder. This one is general topics.
I am not interested in promoting my doctrines or opposing anyone else.
The thread was meant to see what others thought about the subject without formulating doctrines? I'm sorry that I bothered now. Next you'll say that Mermaids don't exist!!
Pssssssttt.....this is a joke by the way!
Pilgrim
It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.
Mark Twain.
:-)
ThePilgrim wrote:
Now be careful because you can get burned at a stake for watching a movie that promotes teen relationships, drug abuse,masturbation, alienology, and a belief that Good will conquer evil.
Hi ThePilgrim, I really do not understand why you do teach this, or is this a joke that I do not get?
I mean to watch something bad is no sin (unless you lust after it of course), but other than this it is no sin - it maybe darkens your soul (Mt. 6,22: "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."), but we do not get judged because of it, it alone can not make us guilty (remember Jesus saying: "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man." Mark 7,15). And to the quote there is also Romans 12,21 saying: "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Greetings,
critical but friendly steez :)
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