May I ask for some prayerfully council for a young couple, is it a wasteful use of the money the Lord provides for a future husband to spend on a diamond engagement ring for his future wife? When those that are married here on SI got married did you buy a diamond for your fiancee, did you pray about it or seek the Lord about this purchase before hand?
God bless
mj
The engagement ring is a deeply symbolic gift, and I believe anybody buying one should put a lot of thought into, and spend as much as they can reasonably afford. No doubt, it is a "vanity." But, with that said, "all is vanity." And being that we all do vain things in this life, I think one should make this "vanity" really count for something.
Thank you KingJimmy for your thoughts. I will admit I am not the best person to give advice on this matter, I do not really wear any jewelry myself except a small plain gold wedding band. When my husband and I got married we already had our daughter and were very young, diamond rings were not in the budget so I am not sure I really understand the whole purpose or need for buying an engagement ring?. I do find it interesting that you mentioned that you see the ring as a vanity, but then you go on to say that it should be bought anyway. I kind of find this confusing, isn't this the same then as saying yes giving your future bride the diamond she wants is a vain thing to do, and vanity is sin but go for it anyway? How would this be giving good counsel?
Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand your point in this?
Thank you for your time and God Bless
mj
I think you are in danger of getting into a dispute about a doubtful thing, unless you are among those who believe that the scripture forbids all wearing of gold, etc. In that case, you shouldn't even be wearing your gold band.
If you don't believe that is the point of the relevant passage of scripture on the topic, then you are talking about a doubtful thing, ie, a thing that the scripture does not address specifically.
Why then would it be a sin for someone else to wear a diamond wedding set (engagement ring with accompanying band) and it's ok for you to wear a gold band only? Do you see what happens when we try to define things the scripture doesn't define?
You couldn't afford a diamond wedding set, so it is vanity (I know you didn't actually say this; just responding as if that is the conclusion). What if you couldn't afford the 2006 minivan my wife drives? Would that make it a vanity as well?
Point is, you don't really get to define stuff the scripture doesn't define. That's not how it works. Some of us grew up in churches where anything the preacher didn't like or couldn't afford was a sin. There is no power in that kind of Christianity.
If you are advising this couple, you should focus on the issue of what they can afford, etc., and not going in debt for things such as rings, not whether something you don't personally like would be a sin.
Greeting David0228
You wrote:I think you are in danger of getting into a dispute about a doubtful thing, unless you are among those who believe that the scripture forbids all wearing of gold, etc. In that case, you shouldn't even be wearing your gold band.
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I am sorry if my post some how came across to you or towards King Jimmy that we were having or about to be in danger of a dispute. Also I will admit to my shame I do not know the Bible verse that you mentioned that forbids the wearing of gold so I do not hold to the view at this time that wearing jewelery is sinful. IF I came across that way then I hope this clears that up.
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Your wrote next:Why then would it be a sin for someone else to wear a diamond wedding set (engagement ring with accompanying band) and it's ok for you to wear a gold band only? Do you see what happens when we try to define things the scripture doesn't define?
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I was not saying that wearing a diamond is a sinful thing for this young woman to do. I was not asking if it was sin for her to have the ring. King Jimmy mentioned that he thought it to be vanity, not me. I was just hoping to understand better what he was sharing about it being vanity but to go ahead and get the ring anyway?
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Next you wrote:You couldn't afford a diamond wedding set, so it is vanity (I know you didn't actually say this; just responding as if that is the conclusion). What if you couldn't afford the 2006 minivan my wife drives? Would that make it a vanity as well?
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Just to clarify I did not say this was vanity, I was asking a question about the spending of the money on the diamond ring(this is the future grooms concern) King Jimmy again was the one who mentioned it being vanity? I was curious to understand his point and was asking him if he would explain more.
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last you wrote:If you are advising this couple, you should focus on the issue of what they can afford, etc., and not going in debt for things such as rings, not whether something you don't personally like would be a sin.
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this young couple has asked advice of my husband and myself. I shared with them both that to me since I do not really wear jewelery or care about it that I might not be the best person so seek on this. I only mentioned my ring because I do not really understand the importance that having a diamond might be for this young woman. It was not a big deal to me but I understand that it is for her and I do not want to take away from that. I was looking for the thoughts of others about this because I do want to share the best advice that the Lord would have me. The groom is concerned about spending money on things that are not needs, but rather wants. I can understand his point of view also. He wants to be a good steward with the money the Lord has provided. The groom feels that buying the ring is wasteful. The bride would like to have her diamond and so they are not agreed. Since this has never really been an issue for me I just thought I would see what others heart on the matter was.
Thank you for your sharing your thoughts davidk and welcome to the forum.
King Jimmy I hope I did not put you on the spot or make you feel uncomfortable in any way. I really am not looking to argue or dispute this topic at all. If I came across in a manner that was other then a loving Christ like heart please forgive me.
God Bless
maryjane
The groom is concerned about spending money on things that are not needs, but rather wants. I can understand his point of view also. He wants to be a good steward with the money the Lord has provided. The groom feels that buying the ring is wasteful. The bride would like to have her diamond and so they are not agreed.
There is no verse in scripture that says the wearing of jewelry is sinful; just the admonition by Paul that women should refrain from expensive adornments but rely on a godly character as their attraction.
[i]1Ti 2:9-10 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
If bride and groom were in agreement, then there would be no problem because either way (ring or no ring) is OK. However, the more critical aspect in the situation, I think, is the fact that they are already in disagreement, and it seems from your narrative that neither wants to give way to the other.
Maybe instead of counseling about the ring, they should be counselled about how husband and wife are to relate to each other at times like this.
If I were the husband, I would get the ring to make my wife happy and not fuss about it UNLESS the money for the ring represents a significant amount that could impact their start as a married couple. If the money is significant, I believe the wife should be willing to give way to more important things than jewelry.
If they break up because of this little thing then they probably should not wed anyway.
hi, you can buy a gold cz of high quality that a jeweler would have to use a loop to tell what it was for a hundred or so... now aint that pretty.jimp
This is a very good question. I thought it was interesting because I was thinking about posting this question. We are so used to the way things are and then when they come up to us with a renewed mind it is funny how different things can be. I mean before I had the mind of Christ I wouldn't even think of it and then as a Christian I wouldn't even think of it til it came up and then comparing it to Apostolic doctrine and life. I thought to myself does the Bible say that a ring needs to be bought for the wife? Or I thought what were weddings like in Biblical times if even they were right or if it were changed at different times or? I don't think there is a Biblical telling of this. I do remember being told that in times past slaves would be given an earring, but I don't think that needs to be done now. I also randomly heard a respected missionary preacher say that he was not able to buy a ring for his wife til years after they were married. I also thought what if as ministers we were in hard places and a diamond ring can be seen as something to be stolen or gaudy even and not modest. I think in many cultures it can be seen as a rich mans luxury. I don't know I am still thinking over the subject and have more thoughts. I am not sure, but I don't think it too far fetched that in other countries rings are not even bought. So, maybe it can be seen as a cultural thing and in some instances we are to be cultural though in some not. As for it being a vanity. I think there is a vanity that is sinful and one that is not. Solomon said that all things are vanity and obviously all things are not sin. In the sense in which Solomon was talking it would be vanity to breath because at the end we all die or it has already been done. A sinful sense of vanity would be dressing yourself up to excess to make a person lust after you or to be proud before man and God. What some would say is that it would be a waste. Others would say that you only marry once and you want to show love so maybe spend on this one since it is so important. They would say that we spend on things and why not this which is much more important. God gives us grace and we are not all to live in 100% self denial like John the Baptist. Just like some are called to marry and it is not a sin when full self denial would be singleness. I think I would say thought that it is a good thing not to spend extreme amounts though what really is extreme is it from a western mindset. I also think that couples should not be hindered from marrying because of a very expensive ring, nor be shamed in some way, nor not be able to pay for some other very important thing. I was encouraged in this hearing of the missionary who was not able to buy a ring until years after they were married because they were missionaries and poor.
By "vanity" I don't mean anything sinful per say. Solomon said ***ALL*** is vanity. That's not necessary a bad thing, it's just Solomon putting everything in perspective. So, my argument is that if all is vanity as Solomon said, then being there is a great deal of symbolic significance of a engagement/wedding ring in this life, especially in our culture, then I'm all for somebody splurging (within reason) to buy this item for their bride to be. Considering all the other things we spend money on in this life, I think one would do well, within reason, to spend as much money as they could afford.
Whatever the case, Romans 14 applies here. It falls within the area of Christian liberty. Whatever one's conviction, let him have it before the Lord. When I got engaged to a woman that is now my ex-fiance, I spent about two months pay to get it. Even though our engagement did not work out, and I only fetched 25% of the ring when I resold it, I still do not regret spending what I did to get the ring. It was still a modest ring by most standards, only a 3/4 ct. solitaire stone, but, it was the ring that I absolutely wanted to get her, and it was a ring that I knew she wanted.
This seems to be a area where the scripture is not explict about it. I would personally say a much simpler ring even one without diamonds would even work if you felt there wasn't to be an extravance with it. I would say biblical there needs to be a dowry a gift that the man gives to the women and even to the family.
On the value or prominence of the gift it is not said as much and is more open to what the cultural normal is. But I feel Christians ought not to be following the dictates of cultural so perhaps a simpler form of the same thing could work.
Either way you have liberty.
Some points to hold in mind with relation to the 'present times.'
- Wearing a diamond ring can make you a target for a thief or desperate person
- The deplorable, dangerous conditions of the people who mine these gems (the workers, not the mine owners)
- Would you feel comfortable witnessing to 'street people' while wearing a diamond ring?
- The 'need' for a diamond ring had been created as a money making business.
It is sound practice to not spend more than you have. Diamonds are not an investment. Only the ultra rich can make money buying and selling diamonds. If you or I took a diamond ring to a pawn shop you would only get a pittance of what was paid for it. In the long view, it is a poor investment.
When I married we bought a pawn shop gold band. It was hand crafted and I loved it. God took it from me and brought me to see how I loved the thing. A woman gave me her wedding band after she was divorced, since she knew I had need to sell mine. The Lord brought me to sell that one, too. I bought a simple gold plated/sterling silver one at a flea market and wore it until the plating came off the inside. My husband bought me a simple gold band to replace it. A couple of years ago I had to have that ring cut off my swollen hand during a terrible illness. I may be a slow learner but I got the message this time. It isn't worth the trouble. This couple will have to learn their own lessons but I pass on my observations freely.
white stone
This is something that each person needs to decide on their own between the couple and God. There is no hard and fast rule, and I personally think it's not even a good thing to get people's opinion on... because it can lead to confusion.
A couple needs to seek the Lord about such things. He may tell me to buy a big ol' ring for my fiance... and He may tell someone else to spend as little money as possible.
It all depends on His plan and purposes for each individual believer.
And... to follow that up, if He leads someone to not spend a lot of money on an engagement ring, that couple should never sit in judgement of others who God directed otherwise. And vice versa.
Krispy
Can you put a price tag on love? A diamond ring is just one way of saying, "I love you and I want you to be with me forever." After all, "diamond are forever".
Yes all is vanity. Even the courting and all the wooing, it's all vanity. But women love it. They love being doted upon, and they know the reason, but the reason thrills them because men are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, wanting to be with the one they love.
Is it extravagant? Sure is, depending on the largeness of the diamond and his pocket book. But if he has any doubts, tell him not to get it. Tradition can always dictate, but if he is spell bound by her love and beauty he'd buy it without thinking twice. Such is love for our LORD.
What they are doing is creating a memory and a solid foundation. It's in the mind of a man to want to give to his bride to be. Oh you'll have your insensitive beasts, but generally speaking men like to dote. God does the same thing to his bride. He arrayed her with jewels and fine gold. Yes these are spiritual connotations and it should be that of the heart, but we are flesh as well and being engaged to be married is a fleshy arrangement, the two shall become one flesh.
In the New Testament the focus was not to deck oneself out to look like they are holy. That is what Israel was doing. She began to look upon herself and considered her beauty and the jewels and gold that God had given her and she thought her beauty was a result of her own doing. Peter was saying to the women, don't look to these natural elements to make yourselves holy. But it's not a commandment to abstain from them, just know within yourself that these things are for our pleasure not for our justification.
Twas reading some more postings and found this:
Oh dear me. This is not good at all. And they are getting married? The groom is in the wrong. 1 Corinthians 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.The groom feels that buying the ring is wasteful. The bride would like to have her diamond and so they are not agreed.
This is the life that he has chosen, if he is to be married. Tell him to buy that ring with the smallest diamond possible and tell him to tell her, "I am so sorry honey that I took so long".
P.S. buying the smallest diamond possible is his compromising part of not being wasteful and at the same time she is getting her diamond.
And he has to realize that she has something to sport with her girl friends. I've seen this time and time again, they gather around to look at their ring, necklace, pendent, bracelet, you name it, they love talking about this stuff and especially if it came from the man they love. It doesn't matter if your poor or rich, all painted up or a plain Jane, there is always something to talk about amongst girls.
Thank you everyone for your replies. I feel as though I have learned a great deal from asking this question. I just wanted to say that I did make sure that the couple understood that no matter what they did decide to do in the end, that it was their decision and while their is nothing wrong with seeking out advice, they should go to God put it all to prayer and wait on Him for their answer.
White stone: I appreciate what you shared about your ring, or rings. I have only had two rings in my marriage, the first was a very inexpensive white gold band. As I said we got married young and it was all we could afford. I remember it cost all of $50 dollars at the time. Like you I had an injury to my hand and my ring had to be cut off. After that I did not wear a ring for a really long time. I was fine with no ring, as I said I do not really care much for jewelery anyway. When I was pregnant with our last child and my husband and I went through some real hard times, I was sick and we almost divorced because of selfish sinful living.While my husband was living back with his parents he took his gold band off and did not wear it for 4 months. It was such a painful thing for me to see him with out that ring on. It hurt so much even more then him leaving me did. I know that sounds silly but for me his action of taking off the ring was such a revealing of his heart.It meant he no longer loved me, I cried so hard for so long. The really funny thing is that when he did finally come home and we gave our lives to Jesus, committing to live and walk in submission to Him as head of our family all the pain over the ring just disappeared for me. I suddenly knew that as long as we were following Jesus nothing else mattered to me. Later on that year my husband did buy me as a gift a new wedding band, this one matches his. He wears his from time to time, but not always due to an injury. While I appreciate the ring, if I did not have it or he did not have his it would be fine with me, I have learned that things like this do not mean so much to me anymore. Having the love of my Lord and having the love of my husband is more then enough and its what I hold dear to me now. Thank you again for sharing your heart with me.
Deepthinker you wrote:And he has to realize that she has something to sport with her girl friends. I've seen this time and time again, they gather around to look at their ring, necklace, pendent, bracelet, you name it, they love talking about this stuff and especially if it came from the man they love. It doesn't matter if your poor or rich, all painted up or a plain Jane, there is always something to talk about amongst girls.
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Oh dear brother I hope and pray that not all christian women are as silly as you make them sound with this statement. I hope and pray that the things of His kingdom would be on our hearts so much more then temporary trinkets that loose their luster and shine after time. I know you did not mean anything with your comment but I will take it as a reminder to keep my focus on Jesus and not the things of this world that fade away:-)
again thank you all, I feel I have some good things shared here to pass on to this couple. I think that as long as they both seek God first and then put each other before self it will all work out in the end.
God Bless
mj
Good thoughts everybody. Just an additional two cents from me. When I bought my ex-fiance's engagement ring, I'm not going to lie to you, I sought to buy something she not only could glory in the symbol of our love while by herself, but something that she could flash around to her family, girlfriends, and even at the church. It wasn't an extravagant ring... only 3/4 ct. princess cut. It's a rather modest ring where I live at (athletes/bankers/lawyers are everywhere), though it was definitely a big deal in comparison to the rather poor background she came from.
Was it wrong for me to want to give her something that all her friends could oooh and ahhhhh over? No, I don't think so. From my reading of Song of Solomon, such a relationship seemed to exist amongst him and his beloved. I think that is merely part of the courtship and wooing process. I think it is a way of inviting people to celebrate with the couple as a community the love they have for one another, and the union they are looking to enter into. If it does something to anyway strengthen the sentimental and romantic nature of the marriage bond, and glorifies the union of marriage, then I'm all for getting a girl some *bling*
I must say though, when my ex-fiance and I sat down to talk, and she wasn't wearing her ring, and then she placed it in my hand... that was some serious pain. Oh, as Shakespeare said though, better to have love and lost than never loved at all. I wouldn't change a thing I did in regard to my selection of the ring, and if and when I meet somebody else and want to get maried, I plan on doing it all over again just the same.
Whatever one decides though, and feels right in their heart with God about, so beit :-)
Anyway, buying a diamond for a fiancee is not really a must, but it is a fashion for letting her know how much you love her, and you really wanted to marry her. You should pray first for a permission to do it, and I'm sure that He could understand it. Engagement ring is a good way to let her feel how much you wanted her to be your wife.
_________________[url=http://www.fancyfortunecookies.com]Personalized Fortune Cookies
I don't see a problem with an engagement ring...unless the woman is demanding something extravagant for the purpose of vanity, in which case she needs some instruction in godliness. But I think it can be an important symbol and pledge of commitment to the woman, world, and keep the man accountable to his word. however, I also think it is stupid what our culture expects out of engagement rings. I have a wonderful wife who asked for a twisty-tie and specifically NOT a diamond.
PS if the man is looking, I actually have a diamond ring I'm trying to sell. Let me know if he's interested and I can get him all the details.
greetings
Just thought I would give those who posted a quick update. The future groom did decided to buy a diamond for his future bride. From what he shared with my husband there are now issue over the size and amount of money that will be spent. The bride has her heart set on a rather expensive ring, my husband reminded the future groom to be mindful about going into debt. However there are others that are also sharing with him that he should get her what ever she wants and do what it takes to make her happy. My husband said that the groom does seem to still be struggling with some of this but he does want to make his bride happy and keep the peace so they will be going shopping.
Thank you all again for sharing your wisdom in this with me.
God Bless
mj
Hello...
After reading this thread, I am reminded of Isaac and his marriage with Rebekah (Genesis 24). As soon as Abraham's chief servant found Rebekah and she fulfilled the requirements of his prayer (drawing water for him and then for his camels), he pulled out a gold ring and a couple of bracelets (Genesis 24:22). The KJV incorrectly calls is an "earring," but it was placed in Rebekah's face (her nose, in Genesis 24:30 and Genesis 24:47). Regardless, this (the nose ring and the bracelets) was due to the custom of the time and not some Biblical mandate. Notice that this gold ring was quite heavy (a half shekel) for a nose ring. So, this was a quite noticeable ornament on her face (as were the two bracelets weighing 10 shekels).
The custom of jewelry obviously extended throughout Israel. When Aaron created a golden calf idol, he obtained the gold from the ears of the people. Of course, there isn't any sort of prohibition of wedding or betrothal jewelry in the Law of Moses. In fact, the Law is quite silent on the matter.
However, God (speaking through the prophet Ezekiel) compared Jerusalem to a bride that sounds a lot like Rebekah -- complete with a ring and bracelets (Ezekiel 16:10-12). This is, perhaps, one of the first clear examples of how God sees His people as a "bride." In Jeremiah, God asked, "[i]Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number[i]as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels
In the New Testament, we know that the Church is compared to a beautifully adorned bride who has "made herself ready" (Revelation 19:7). In fact, the New Jerusalem will be adorned with many exceedingly precious jewels and gold. In fact, the custom of the day dictated the wearing of certain jewelry (sometimes as a sign). Kings wore signet rings (as did their designated servants). Even slaves wore rings to signify who they belonged to. Most historians believe that the idea of a bridal ring itself showed that she "belonged" to someone (in other words, HANDS OFF). Even today, people in this world will often flirt with someone who doesn't wear a ring. In fact, I had an experience in college where a girl told me (and others) that "God told her" she was going to marry me. I reminded her that I was courting someone else (and she knew this). However, she replied, "[i]But there isn't a ring on your finger yet
If you recall the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15:21-22), the father adorned his returning son with a ring on his finger (even after he had squandered his father's wealth). Why? I think that it was like the father telling the son, "[i]You belong to me. You are mine
I have been married for over two years now. I can say with complete sincerity that I love my wife and I am so happy to be married to her! It may sound corny, but we really do "complete" one another. We can say with great confidence of one another, "[i]I am my beloved and my beloved is mine
When it came time to buy a ring, I really wanted to adorn her with something significant. I had saved up quite a bit of money to pay for the ring (expecting to pay several thousand dollars). I didn't feel comfortable with giving her a ring that she might not like, so we shopped for a ring together. I had an idea of a type of ring that I wanted to get her, but she didn't like it. In fact, she strayed away from the more extravagant and "flashy" rings. She has small fingers, and she didn't want to feel uncomfortable with a ring that she was going to wear everyday. Ultimately, it came down to two different and very lovely white gold ring sets. One was far more expensive than the other, so my wife (at the time, [i]my fiancé
In the course of trying them on, the owner realized that she was a very good friend of my sister. She ended up selling us the ring at cost...which made the more expensive ring set less expensive than the other one that we were considering. We ended up engraving the words of Ruth 1:16 inside ("[i]...thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God
Personally, I think that the passage in James 2:1-9 about jewelry isn't actually a [u]prohibition
I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine. The ring is just a symbol to show that to others (without me having to tell everyone).
:-)
Its funny because my husband asked me when this young man came to him the first time if I ever regretted not getting a diamond ring. With so many putting the importance of the ring as a way for the groom to show his love for his wife I guess there was a part of me that began to wonder, "Does my husband love me that much?" I will admit this has been on my heart. My husband is not a romantic guy, in fact sharing or showing his emotions at all are something he really struggles with. At times this can be really hard for me, but then I remember and think about all the many ways he does show his love for me. The thousand little things that he does are what really mean a lot to me. I know if I asked for a diamond he would say sure we can get you one but I think I really do just prefer my plain band. Its not expensive but some how it just fits who I am and who we are as a couple and I think that is what matters most. I think as long as you approach this matter(if your in the situation of looking for an engagement ring) with Christ as the head of your decisions then the choice made will be the right one:-)
Now as for the matter of the wedding itself and the insane amounts of money that are spent and that most churches(at least in my area) charge...well that is a whole other thread:-)
God Bless
mj
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