Anger / Hatred of God

How do reformed theologians resolve the tension that exists between the sovereign grace of God, and the holy hatred / indignation / anger / wrath of God?

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, all men equally deserve hell. I understand this and I agree with this completely.

But throughout Scripture, God reveals His anger towards several nations for debauchery / immorality, as well as Israel for falling away from Him and not keeping His commandments.

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, God must know that men are truly depraved and wicked and unable to turn to Him unless He grants them the grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him... so why does He become angry at men for naturally being what they are... depraved / sinful wicked?

I'm not asking why God punishes them, or why God judges them... I'm asking, 'Why does God exhibit the emotion (?) of anger / fury?'

No thoughts?

:-(

Who knows?

Anguish,

If you read Psalms 107, there are four times that God is angered and four times where He inflicts pain but then there is also four times where it says, "THEN they cried unto the Lord" and HE HEARD THEM or leads them or saves them or brings them out of where they WERE to where they should be.

10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 [b]Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men![/b]

Could it be as simple as this? I think so!

While the Bible itself does not use the term 'depravity,' we must be careful in throwing out the baby with the bathwater... if we were to continue that line of logic, we would have to abolish the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, because the term 'Holy Trinity' is not found in the Bible.

These verses support the view of total depravity.

* Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
* Genesis 8:1: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
* Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

* Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
* Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
* Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
* Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
* Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
* Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
* Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
* Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
* Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
* Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
* Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
* John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
* John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
* John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
* John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
* Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
* Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
* 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
* Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
* Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

As to your comment on Romans 2, yes Paul says it is possible to live righteously according to conscience, but you must look at the entire context of the letter of Romans, as well as the first 3 chapters. Paul is writing the first 3 chapters to stop every mouth and make everybody guilty before God.

He is not saying, keep the law in order to become righteous, rather he is pressing the law of God upon Jews and Gentiles in order to show their depravity and inability to keep the entire counsel of God.

It is very similar to when Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to inherit eternal life. Was this something that the young man could begin to do in order to earn salvation? No, Jesus pressed the law upon him in order to bring his corrupt heart to light.

Anyway, I am not here to argue the doctrine of total depravity.

I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.

I am not questioning the act of God's judgment / righteousness that must be according to His Holiness... I am trying to find out why God exhibits anger towards depraved men.

Perhaps His anger is a byproduct of Election / Total Depravity... in the light of His plan for salvation to the certain predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

God does not wish to be angry, but He must be angry against sin, because it offends Him at His core, but He was willing to endure the scorn by the majority of mankind in order to bring salvation through Jesus Christ to His elect...

Hmm...

*edit... conscious =! conscience* :-P

I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.

Anguish there is no tension in the bible about issues you mentioned. The tension is in our hearts for lack of revelation and better understanding of scriptures thru Holy Spirit.

For total depravity of man, total redemption and salvation in provided in Jesus Christ.There is no contradiction between the holy God of OT and the God of love of the NT. God is one. Election is according to forknowledge of God and he did not made hell for men but for demons and the devil.The bible warns us to flee from the wrath to come, while at the present offers us the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.

DeepThinker wrote:

Is God angry?

This is news to me.

I love it!

I did not read all the posts, so someone else may have shared this idea....

You asked:

'Why does God exhibit the emotion (?) of anger / fury?'

If you have loved ones who are spurning the mercy and grace of God, who are walking away from God and have chosen the path that leads to hell, you can more easily understand God's anger. If you can in your imagination and emotion visualize hell for a brief moment and know these people have [i][b]chosen[/b][/i] this place to spend eternity, it has the power to evoke anger like nothing else. It is not that they do not know but that they have chosen to disbelieve.

If you have experienced this, I think you will understand that God is very much justified to be angry, especially since he has provided the means to escape this hazzard by suffering and dying on a cross and a person spurns it!

My thoughts,
ginnyrose

All comes from unbelief. AS Adam in unbelief of God and belief of the deceiver. As Isreal in the wilderness. They could not enter God's rest because of unbelief, from which all sin sprouts from. God's wrath is most certainly on the unbelief, not the unbeliever for whom Christ died for.

Even now, unbelief is the full depth of God's anger and wrath.

There is a difference in The Nation of Israel and the individual that is called. This is where a lot of misinformation comes from. God has set aside the Gospel to Israel as a nation, but not His chosen and called in Christ.

Hebrews 3:7-19 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Again; "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

How do we believe? By the foolishness of preaching of God's Word. "How shall they hear without a preacher." The Gospel is now given to the Gentiles, and they are the same, they will not enter God's rest because of unbelief. "They will hear it, that is the "Gospel", but unbelief is still the only thing that keeps the whole world from salvation. The Faith of Christ, The Grace of God, The Teaching and Conviction of the Holy Spirit, to those that are called according to His purpose.

Acts 28:25-31 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

How do we have rest? Not anguish, but peace and rest in Christ.

Acts 9:29-31 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and you will be saved.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Do we want rest or anguish?

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rest, sweet rest in God's rest through Jesus Christ.

Do we want rest?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Anything outside of Rest in Christ is our own works trying to take our anguish and overcome so we can be right before God, This is Sin.

The works in God's rest are such that will follow us into the presence of God as Christ presents His Body the Church to the Father.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

In Christ's rest: Phillip

This short article may help.

It seems a contradiction that a God who is love can also hate. We are created with the capacity to both love and hate; it is part of our being created in the image of God. The fact that we are all tainted with sin does not negate the fact that the ability to love and hate is part of the image of God that was created within us all. Therefore, if it is no contradiction for a human being to be able to love and hate, then much more so would it not be a contradiction for God to be able to love and hate.

When the Bible does speak of God hating, the object of God’s hatred is usually sin and wickedness. Among the things God hates are idolatry (Deuteronomy 12:31, 16:22) and those who do evil (Psalm 5:4-6, 11:5). Proverbs 6:16-19 outlines seven things the Lord hates: pride, lying, murder, evil plots, those who love evil, false witness, and troublemakers. Notice that this passage does not include just things that God hates; it includes people as well.

The question that begs to be answered at this point is why does God hate these things? God hates them because they are contrary to His nature—God’s nature being holy, pure and righteous. In fact, David writes, “For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you” (Psalm 5:4 emphasis added). God is holy and hates sin. If He did not hate sin, He would not be holy. God is love, but He is also wrath, justice, and vengeance. But His wrath is a holy wrath and His justice and vengeance are holy as well. God’s love is holy. Therefore, He cannot "love everyone all the time no matter what they do," as some like to claim. Nothing could be further from the truth. God loves righteousness and holiness and hates sin and evil. If He did not, He would not be God.

So if God hates sin and loves holiness, how does He love us? Simple. He loves us because we have the righteousness of Christ who became sin for us on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). He poured out His wrath and vengeance against sin on His Son, so that He could pour out His mercy and love on us. But without that sacrifice credited to us, His wrath and hatred remains on us because He hates our sin. The Bible never says He ‘hates the sin, but loves the sinner.’ In fact He is “angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11). Is there a sense in which God loves everyone? Yes. Does that love preclude God from also hating sin, wickedness, and evil? No. [url=http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-hate.html]Source[/url]

Man's Unbelief > God's Sovereign Grace ?

Man does not desire God
Man cannot seek God
Men are born God-hating
Men are sinful, wicked creatures

Please take this as a true premise before responding. :-(

This is why the original post asked how 'reformed theologians' resolved the tension...

My question runs much deeper than what you guys are getting at...

Man cannot turn to God unless God, in a way, forces them to be regenerate through His Holy Spirit... In the same way, none of us here on this planet chose to be born into this world, in a way we were forced into this world by our parents. Thus Christ talks of being born again, with His conversation with Nicodemus. No one chooses and says, I think I would like to be born in the time period of 1500 AD, in France. Or, I would like to born in the time period of the Medo-Persian empire...

I know I did not seek God because of some intellect that I possess, neither was I nicer than any of my peers, God simply chose to put a hunger within me to search after Him...

If men are truly depraved and wicked, and require God to move on their behalf to save them, why does God still exhibit anger against them?

Are we not saved through grace? Grace through faith? A revelation of His mercy towards us? Anything else would allow men to boast in the flesh, and say, I TURNED TO GOD, I CHOSE GOD, I CHOSE TO REPENT>>> which will eventually, if followed logically >>>I DESERVE HEAVEN BECAUSE OF SOMETHING I DID / THOUGHT / SAID.

Opposed to, God chose me, God granted me grace although I did not deserve it, I am no better than my fellow man, there was nothing in me worth saving, God simply chose to pour out His unmerited favor upon me... I deserve hell, if God were to send me to hell, I would still glorify God for who He is... and I am a worm.

IWantAnguish wrote:
Man's Unbelief > God's Sovereign Grace ?

Man does not desire God
Man cannot seek God
Men are born God-hating
Men are sinful, wicked creatures

Please take this as a true premise before responding. :-(

This is why the original post asked how 'reformed theologians' resolved the tension...

My question runs much deeper than what you guys are getting at...

Man cannot turn to God unless God, in a way, forces them to be regenerate through His Holy Spirit... In the same way, none of us here on this planet chose to be born into this world, in a way we were forced into this world by our parents. Thus Christ talks of being born again, with His conversation with Nicodemus. No one chooses and says, I think I would like to be born in the time period of 1500 AD, in France. Or, I would like to born in the time period of the Medo-Persian empire...

I know I did not seek God because of some intellect that I possess, neither was I nicer than any of my peers, God simply chose to put a hunger within me to search after Him...

If men are truly depraved and wicked, and require God to move on their behalf to save them, why does God still exhibit anger against them?

Are we not saved through grace? Grace through faith? A revelation of His mercy towards us? Anything else would allow men to boast in the flesh, and say, I TURNED TO GOD, I CHOSE GOD, I CHOSE TO REPENT>>> which will eventually, if followed logically >>>I DESERVE HEAVEN BECAUSE OF SOMETHING I DID / THOUGHT / SAID.

Opposed to, God chose me, God granted me grace although I did not deserve it, I am no better than my fellow man, there was nothing in me worth saving, God simply chose to pour out His unmerited favor upon me... I deserve hell, if God were to send me to hell, I would still glorify God for who He is... and I am a worm.

1. Your reasoning above leaves a lot to be desired.

2. Your castigation of those who answered your thread with the sincere desire to help clarify the issue is out of place. You should be grateful for their responses.

3. Your practice of posing theoretical questions when you already have a preset notion of what the answer should be, and then berating those who respond differently is distasteful.

4. If you have an idea that you want to express, have the courage to spell it out rather than using this bait-and-switch method to see what others think first so you can come out on top in the end.

I sincerely hope these constructive criticisms will help you towards a more productive and edifying experience in this forum.

Boy, you are something else! 1. Your reasoning above leaves a lot to be desired. 2. Your castigation of those who answered your thread with the sincere desire to help clarify the issue is out of place. You should be grateful for their responses. 3. Your practice of posing theoretical questions when you already have a preset notion of what the answer should be, and then berating those who respond differently is distasteful. 4. If you have an idea that you want to express, have the courage to spell it out rather than using this bait-and-switch method to see what others think first so you can come out on top in the end. I sincerely hope these constructive criticisms will help you towards a more productive and edifying experience in this forum.

I was in no way castigating those who replied... But I did state in the original post that I was seeking how 'reformed theologians' would resolve the issue.

I understand there are many on these forums that do not hold to reformed views on several doctrines, but I do hold to the idea that the law of non-contradiction exists in this universe. This means, that A cannot equal Non-A at the same time... The reason I hold to reformed theology is because I can see that it exalts the glory of God above the opinions of men.

Also, it is presumptuous on your behalf to believe that I am not grateful for the responses that I have already received.

I do not post in this forum looking for arguments... rather I am seeking truth. And I thought I could rely on others who participate on this site to help me out here, because it really is quite frustrating.

And as for your last point, I am insulted that you would presume that I have some sort of hidden agenda in order to make myself look smarter than those who chose to reply to my post...

Anyway... Thanks to all of you guys for attempting to help me out of the mess I'm in.

I'll be retiring from this forum for now.

May God bless you all, for Christ was cursed on our behalf.

/end thread

Hi everyone...i don't mean to interrupt, but I thought this would be a good time to pop in and ask something that has plagued me for years...a simple question: does God love me or not? I know some people have said "well, do you believe in Christ? If you do, then yes, he loves you...but if you don't, then he hates you"...and I have also gotten "yes, he loves you, he showed you by giving his son...now please believe on him"

So I just don't know, I really don't know...and it agonizes me further because the Bible seems to give both answers...it says he hates the wicked, but then again you have john 3:16, as well as "God showed his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly"

So if someone was picked randomly from the street, would you be able to say "God loves that person"?