Ephesians 5:3

Ephesians 5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named, among you, as becometh saints;

This verse troubles me greatly, given the times we are living in where sin is no longer sinful. People say you must forgive and go on....right...

Fornication no longer evokes horror, disgust and shame as it used to when I was a teen back in the 60s. We were preached at much by concerned preachers about this issue. As a result very few of my peers ever got involved in this sin. (And no, we were not hiding under a rock.) The age group that preceded ours were very much involved in this sin. They married and most to this day have experienced divorce.

When I was at CPC the volunteers discussed this issue. Singles have babies, they take them to social events and show the child off to their friends and how they oh and ah about the child. The child is cute and it tugs on the maternal heart strings of the other girls. As a result the horror of being single and indulging in fornication is being destroyed, they are getting calloused to this sin - it no longer evokes any horror - "she is doing fine with a child, I will, too".

Now the girls are involved in fornication and they come to church with the baby and woe on any woman who dares to say anything about this situation.

And so the sin is perpetuated. So, how can one stop it? How can this principle become a reality in our brotherhoods?

ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,

I don't doubt most could identify with what you have said. And further still, we have seen it happen.

I have seen those, who were so called 'christians' have the baby and then flaunt it for all to see.

Some got married, some didn't. But the baby always came before the marriage.

If one has a genuine fear of God, and His word, then fornication would be avoided and preached against.

As it tells us in 1 Corinthians 6v18, 'Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.'

Since the fear of God seems to have departed from the churches, anything goes.

Except God.

We have become desensitised to sin. There is no horror over it. Anything goes.

And yet, the judgment seat of Christ awaits.

You'd get a very different and much more holy view of our sinfulness before God and the remedy for it.

A careful study of the WORD will do an excellent job of accomplishing this. My horror of this is not acquired at the church service of my own or an others'.

BTW, I am not a Protestant although I am familiar with what goes on there - perhaps more so then the person who sits in the pew every Sunday. I have had too many clients from these churches - they have educated me.

ginnyrose

We have become desensitised to sin.

So true. And it is happening in many areas. I find myself wondering if perhaps I am being too rigid because so many "Christians" do things that my conscience and the Holy SPirit have taught me "NO!"...

Back to the issue....

Ephesians was written to the Christians at Ephesus. It was not addressed to the sinners but to saints. So it still is. If you go to Revelation you will find the people kept the faith well except that they have left their first love. They were admonished to stay the course, but do regain your first love and the works inherent to this love. Revelation 2:1-7.

What I am about to share will likely anger some or many. This is not my intention. I am not God, God is the judge and I will leave the judging to Him. But I have a serious concern, based on the WORD as stated here in Ephesians and what is happening all around us.

There are many girls in churches today who are having babies out of wedlock who choose to parent the child. The dad is not interested in marrying its mother for a number of reasons so the mom either has to parent the child or adopt it out and some choose to abort the child. Aborting is a wicked thing to do so that is no option. But what about adoption?

The normal female is born with a strong maternal instinct and it will say that if "I carry this child to term I will NOT allow anyone else have this baby!" It is MINE!!!! And so it is. Maternal instincts are coming into play here and will motivate the mother to act in response to this instinct. But is it good for the child?

The single mom will go to social events and her friends will oh and ah this child. The friends' maternal instincts are awakened - this child is cute! and so it is. It coos, it smiles, it is sweet, it is precious...Ah,how I would love to have a baby! So the carnal nature whispers in your hear that "you know I can have a baby without being married. It is not as bad as the old people say!" While this may not be a conscience deliberate decision, she will, because of her nature, become careless in the use of birth control and eventually become pregnant. You see, fornication has lost its shame. So the cycle continues.

What can be done to break this cycle? All would agree revival and this is true.

Here is some more: a single mom will choose to parent the child, her maternal instincts are at work, she loves the baby because it is a part of her. God made this instinct. Now the girl has this baby and she will say "I love him so much! He is the best thing that has ever happened to me!" Where is the repentance and sorrow for sin? How can a single mom feel repentant under these circumstances and still love the child as it deserves to be loved? What about the child? Will the preacher in this church get up and preach how sinful immorality is because of these moms and their children in the audience? Will they not defer preaching about this sin because they fear the wrath and anger it will evoke from the ones in the pews?

And so the cycle continues.

This is what I am getting at: would it not be best for all concerned that this child will be placed in a godly home with a loving husband and wife to care and raise it? Stats are clear that children raised by single moms fare worse in life as a child...Adopting out a child is a gut wrenching experience for a mom. I have witnessed those tears. But how else will one preserve the moral purity of a brotherhood?

Love,
ginnyrose

We have become desensitised to sin. There is no horror over it. Anything goes.

ginnyrose wrote:

This is what I am getting at: would it not be best for all concerned that this child will be placed in a godly home with a loving husband and wife to care and raise it? Stats are clear that children raised by single moms fare worse in life as a child...Adopting out a child is a gut wrenching experience for a mom. I have witnessed those tears. But how else will one preserve the moral purity of a brotherhood?

Love,
ginnyrose

Wow, ginnyrose. I am not sure if this is a capable solution to these situations, but thank you for voicing what has been laid on your heart.

Tough decision. Tough calls. Tough choices. At the for front, something like this seems to make sense to believers (bring babies into a Godly home and then into the Kingdom). But is this feasable? What is the flip side on this?

Hmmm.... Have to pray on this some more before being able to answer more.

This is what I am getting at: would it not be best for all concerned that this child will be placed in a godly home with a loving husband and wife to care and raise it? Stats are clear that children raised by single moms fare worse in life as a child...Adopting out a child is a gut wrenching experience for a mom. I have witnessed those tears. But how else will one preserve the moral purity of a brotherhood?

The problem with this prescription is the legality of such a practice. The laws of men would not allow it under the present humanistic environment. It would be possible though, if a great revival occurred where abject humanism would give way to true faith in God in the US.

"Nothing is impossible with God".

Leo_Grace wrote:

I would agree with ginnyrose here. In cases where the child is born of the parent's sin, it would indeed be better for that child to be raised in a loving Christian home where that type of sin would no longer be propagated. It is reasonable to expect that a child raised by a sinful mother would tend to think that such behavior is OK, and so sinfulness in society gains ground.

No room for Grace I take it? How about Mercy? The Lord stats that He has known us before we were in our mothers womb.

On the flip side. What if you have sworn, or taken the Lord's name in vain? What if you have ever stolen something? Should we then take the child out of that home because of those sins? Wouldn't it make sense to do this as well?

If we would do this, who would our children live with? Surely it could not be my home, because I have sinned before I was a believer, and I have sinned after I was a believer.

What should we do with my 4 children now, for their father is a sinner and sins?

Greeting Ginnyrose

In all honesty I was not going to respond to this post because for me this issue does run deep. Not that I am offended by it because I am not, but rather it does stir up a lot of memories. I got pregnant when I was 16 and gave birth to my daughter when I was 17. I did consider abortion as an answer, out of the six girls I was friends with 5 of us got pregnant. I was the only one to keep my baby. The other 5 had abortions. What you said about carrying the baby to term is true, as the child grows inside of you(if you have any feelings) a bond forms and you do begin to love your baby. I remember very clearly when I decided not to abort, I was thinking over all that had been said to me. One group was telling me to just have an abortion, it was no big deal and I would not have to deal with it.(this group included my own dad) The other group told me that I was carrying a human being, a baby and that no matter what I did not have the right to kill this person inside me, I would just have suffer the consequences of my actions(this group included my mom) then there was another group that consisted of just two people, both of whom loved the Lord very much and where courageous to honestly speak what God had given them to share with me. They came up along side of me and spoke to me about Jesus. One was a nurse who had gone through her own abortion and since repented and the other was my sister. The nurse was very kind and she shared with me how painful and difficult it was for her to live with the fact that she had taken her own child's life. She talked about the sadness that she struggled with each time she looked at one of her children that she now had, she wondered about the one she killed. She simply asked me to consider the things she shared with me and to remember that one day I would stand before the Lord. My sister talked with me about Jesus and shared with me about how precious this little person inside me was to Him.She talked with me about how the Lord knows us even before we are born and reminded me of how He died for me and for the baby I was now carrying. She made it very clear that I was carrying a child that the Lord had given me and that I was responsible for this child. She asked me to consider long and hard if I could really live with myself if I went through with the abortion. Needless to say I was confused, and scared. One morning I woke up really sick(morning sickness) and I found myself just sitting there with dry heaves over and over again. It was the worst, but as I was sitting there the funny thing happened, I began talking to my baby. I began cradling my stomach and just talking to her. In that moment I knew I could never take her life so I made the decision to have her.

Ginnyrose you also talked about giving the child up for adoption as options for these young moms, I can tell you that it is such a heart breaking decision. I know you know this from working with these young women. I do believe those who choose to do so are very courageous. However for me it was not an option, by the time I was 4 months along I had already given my heart to this little person inside me and I could not bare the thought of parting from her. Of course I was not saved back then and I see things differently now. I realize that many of my actions were selfish ones, but if I am honest knowing what I know today I still do not think I could have given her up for adoption.It just is not who I am and as you said the maternal feelings we are given by God take over. My boyfriend(now husband of 25 years) came along in the end and together we struggled to raise our little girl. It was not the way the Lord would have had things for us, we were young and immature, for along time neither of us was walking with the Lord and I can see many attitudes of the heart that my daughter struggles with because of that. As I said there are consequences.

I know that in today's world having children before marriage is almost a trendy thing to do. There are no consequences for either the young girls or boys in these situations. I also realize that there are many young girls who romanticize the idea of having child. However for me I do not believe that because a mom is proud of her child, or shows her off automatically means that she has no remorse for her sin.(of course this is if we are talking about Christians) I love my daughter very deeply, but still some 26 years later, I know that I sinned against my Lord, I was guilty of fornication and at times although I know I am forgiven it still weighs heavy on my heart, my sin crucified Him.

Perhaps the answer lies with us, the church. As the church we need to be sharing with these young women at a very early age, to love Jesus. Teach them that there is joy in waiting for marriage and doing things Gods way. Teach the young men to respect their sisters in Christ and admonish them to never put themselves or their sisters in a situation where either might stumble. We need to come up along side these young ones and be their covering, share with them and care for them daily that lust, and fornication is sin and that sin crucified the Lord. Most importantly teach them that they are not animals that have to give into some kind of so called mating instinct, God created us above that. We have choices and we can choose to follow Him instead of giving into the flesh. If the leaders in the church teach, have them do so with these young men and women in mind. Let it be known that there is no condemnation for those who walk in the Lord, but at the same time the sin of fornication is one that grieves the Lord very much and that there are painful consequences for all involved. Entire families are affected not just themselves. Teach and set the standard that young unmarried people are expected to wait and be chaste regardless of what the world tells them. Jesus is their standard not the world. Share with them that if they have committed the sin of fornication and sought forgiveness in the Lord, that they are forgiven but at the same time they are to stop the sinful behavior and flee from it. Perhaps the older sisters in the church could come together with some of these young moms and share with them the importance of submitting their lives unto the Lord and living in such a way that bears fruit to this. Let them know its ok to love their children and be proud of them but also share with them that while God does love them, having this child before marriage was not His heart for them. It was sin and there for the action is not something to be proud of or boastful about. Perhaps we could give these moms a opportunity to share with other young girls, that its not easy caring for a child alone, the two am teething struggles, the ear infections, the constant need of being cared for. There is a reason that God planned for children to come after a couple is married, so they can help and support one another. The brothers in the church could share with the young men as well how God views of man who abandons his child, teach them to understand that their are consequences for giving into the flesh and they to are responsible. If the entire body of believer came together to help raise these children along side of the mothers daily involving themselves in their lives it would make a huge difference.

Of course this is just some of my heart on this and I know many others see things that I may not. I do understand your heart on this matter, and I know your love for these young women and their children is genuine. You are right fornication is sin though and it must be shared as such by the body with those who profess His name. To do less would not honor Jesus.

God Bless you sister
maryjane

Miccah wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:

I would agree with ginnyrose here. In cases where the child is born of the parent's sin, it would indeed be better for that child to be raised in a loving Christian home where that type of sin would no longer be propagated. It is reasonable to expect that a child raised by a sinful mother would tend to think that such behavior is OK, and so sinfulness in society gains ground.

No room for Grace I take it? How about Mercy? The Lord stats that He has known us before we were in our mothers womb.

On the flip side. What if you have sworn, or taken the Lord's name in vain? What if you have ever stolen something? Should we then take the child out of that home because of those sins? Wouldn't it make sense to do this as well?

If we would do this, who would our children live with? Surely it could not be my home, because I have sinned before I was a believer, and I have sinned after I was a believer.

What should we do with my 4 children now, for their father is a sinner and sins?

Dear Christiaan,

Please don't misconstrue the intention here. Of course there must be room for love in all that transpires. The idea here is that the desire to express such Christian love as been so overemphasized as to overshadow and, in modern times, obliterate the need to also identify sin for what it is and condemn it.

Humanism says the child should never be separated from its mother -- that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In fact, there was the OT practice of dedicating a child to God such that he lived away from his parents in the temple. Rather than think of this as cruelly removing the child from its mother, look at it instead as distancing the child from sin and bringing him closer to God.

There would be every reason to restore the child to the parent, or to bring the sinful parent into the broader foster family, if repentance and separation from sin is apparent in the parent's life.

Your argument, loving though it may be, is exactly what the humanists use to defend sinfulness.

Thank you for your gracious reply. I pray that I can convey my thoughts on this matter in a brotherly way that edifies rather then breaks down.

Leo_Grace wrote:

Humanism says the child should never be separated from its mother -- that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In fact, there was the OT practice of dedicating a child to God such that he lived away from his parents in the temple. Rather than think of this as cruelly removing the child from its mother, look at it instead as distancing the child from sin and bringing him closer to God.

Those examples you are talking about have nothing to do with out of wedlock birth's. The only example that may hold some weight (that I can think off hand) is David's example with Bathsheba, where is the child died because of their sin.

Brother, do you have children? If so, have you sinned against the Lord in [u]any[/u] form of sin after having this child? Should the weight of your sin allow for the removal of this child from your care? Most importantly... [i]is removing a child from its family God's will?[/i]

There would be every reason to restore the child to the parent, or to bring the sinful parent into the broader foster family, if repentance and separation from sin is apparent in the parent's life.

Apparent to whom? Me? You? The Elders? [i]Whose Elders decide, the fathers or the mothers?[/i]

Your argument, loving though it may be, is exactly what the humanists use to defend sinfulness.

Brother... come now. Just because we disagree is not a reason to lump me or my thoughts in with humanists and say that I am defending sin. What I am saying is to allow for mercy and grace to work in the sinners life.

In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, [u]which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?[/u] All have sinned.

Brother, we all will be judged in the same way that we judge others. I agree that this issue needs to be addressed and addressed hard, but taking people's children away because we disagree with how and by whom they where concieved, is exactly what Germany did in the 40's.

Regardless, I appreciate your heart felt concern on this issue. Out of wedlock child birth affects us all Love ya bro! :-)

Regardless, I appreciate your heart felt concern on this issue. Out of wedlock child birth affects us all Love ya bro!

Miccah,

How would you suggest that Ephesians 5:3 become a reality in your brotherhood if it is beset by unwed moms? Did you not notice the scripture says that it should not ONCE be named among you?

Mercy? it has and is being applied but the problem is worsening...

I suggested adoption since that appears to be the best solution - as a rule. Scriptures use the term to symbolize our acceptance into the family of God.

What say, Miccah?

ginnyrose

MaryJane,

God bless you, my dear. I know this was a hard post for you to write.

I am so glad you have experienced the mercy and grace of God in your life.

Your husband must have been a man, even if he gave into sin: he took responcibility for his actions and provided for you and his child. Too many dads leave the mother set, forcing her to make it on her own.

When I was a teen we were told that if people are promiscuous the probability is that they will then get involved in adultery after they marry. They also said that if a couple fornicates that marriage will likely end up in divorce. Interestingly, the stats will proved this as well. Not only that, chastity programs will teach it as well.

MJ, the fact that you are married to your child's dad and that you are still together and serving the LORD is very rare considering the circumstances in which you got together in marriage. Do you realize how rare and unusual your situation is? Must be the mercy and grace of God at work there...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: In my experience at CPC some of my clients will mock at my use of the tern 'fornication'. And these were not ignorant youth, but those that go to church...

ginnyrose wrote:

How would you suggest that Ephesians 5:3 become a reality in your brotherhood if it is beset by unwed moms? Did you not notice the scripture says that it should not ONCE be named among you?

Sister, if you are going to remove the child, why stop there? What is your solution for the mother and father of the child? Should they not be removed as well, based on what the scriptures say? But why stop there.?.? What about the church member that has some sort of sin in their life?

I suggested adoption since that appears to be the best solution - as a rule. Scriptures use the term to symbolize our acceptance into the family of God.

I respect your views on this topic, but I do not feel that adoption is the best solution for unwed mothers and fathers. Does this mean in [u]every[/u] case? Absolutly not. There are some cases that children should be taken away. But to simply take a child away because the mother and father are not married is similar to something that we read about in persecuted countries.

As for the Lord's adoption of us into His family is because of His mercy and grace. To parallel this scripture along side of taking children born of fornication is past a stretch.

What say, Miccah?

I say come Lord Jesus!

If at all possible, what is your answers to my questions? :-)

In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?

Brother, do you have children? If so, have you sinned against the Lord in any form of sin after having this child? Should the weight of your sin allow for the removal of this child from your care? Most importantly... is removing a child from its family God's will?

On the flip side. What if you have sworn, or taken the Lord's name in vain? What if you have ever stolen something? Should we then take the child out of that home because of those sins? Wouldn't it make sense to do this as well?

If we would do this, who would our children live with? Surely it could not be my home, because I have sinned before I was a believer, and I have sinned after I was a believer.

And this is the question that I am most interested in seeing the solution to.

What should we do with my 4 children now, for their father is a sinner and sins?

Thank you in advance and blessings!

Miccah,

In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?

Answer: This Scripture is NOT talking about sin in general, it is talking about fornication. How are you going to deal with the results of that sin in light of Ephesians 5:3? I would like to know. What has been done is only perpetrating the sin more. Immorality has lost its shame, stigma even among church people. How are you going to regain the sacredness of sex when it is being abused by casual, careless, sinful living?

The reason I floated the idea of adopting these children out is it would work to instill some holy fear in the life of girls if they knew they could not keep a child born to them out of wedlock. Miccah, illegitimacy here in the south - the Bible belt, if you please - is worse then any other part of the county. Many of these single moms are religious people. There are concerned people in those churches but are powerless to effect change. Acceptance is the rule. Miccah, I have seen girls cry when told they are pregnant but I do not ever recall seeing a girl cry because she sinned! And I worked as a counselor at a CPC for 15 years. And it goes on and on....

Now, according to Ephesians 5:3, how are you going to deal with illegitimacy? Fornication? We are not talking about lying, stealing, cheating, etc. You have never answered my question...

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:

Now, according to Ephesians 5:3, how are you going to deal with illegitimacy? Fornication? We are not talking about lying, stealing, cheating, etc. You have never answered my question...

Ok sister. I tried to answer your question to the best of my ability so I will try a different avenue.

I will answer your question, but please, you know as well as I that proof texting is not the best way to prove what our Lord commands. If you will take all of Ephesians 5, you will see that sin is talked about through the entire chapter, BUT if you wish to stick to 5:3, I will honor that. Here is my response.

[u][b]1 Corinthians 5:9-13[/b][/u]

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [u]Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world[/u], or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to [u]keep company[/u] with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. [u]Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[/u]

Put away from yourselves the evil person. I see no place in ANY scripture that talks of adopting out babies of fornicators.

Blessings sister.

Christiann,

I think you are reacting strongly to something that was not proposed at all by anyone in this thread. Ginnyrose explained this clearly: the specific sin here is fornication - willful and unrepentant practice of sexual immorality. That should answer some of those questions you posted.

As to the question regarding my family:

Yes, I have three children. My wife and I were married 19 years ago, and we did not "know" each other until after the wedding. In all those 19 years we have been faithful to each other even through the three years that we were apart due to unavoidable, involuntary circumstance.

As to the question regarding your four kids:

Are you a fornicator? If you are (but I don't think that you are), then I honestly believe that you should not be allowed to have any children (not just your kids) around you.

In Christ,
Leo