Rom 6:1

Romans 6:1

What kind of gospel do you have to teach to have this kind of response?

Would Finney have received the same response as Paul? Spurgeon?

(We all know it's the wrong assumption and not what Paul taught, but an interesting response to Paul's gospel. Would you get the same objection as Paul did?)

Do the Ezekiel and Isaiah verses you quoted pertain to backsliding Israel or unbelievers hearing the gospel for the first time?

Also, explain 'lawless gospel' and how the saving gospel contains the law?

I found a number of commentators found even this question repulsive, but others believe Paul himself put it forward to answer the foremost and pre eminent question that would arise from a gospel of grace instead of law (old covenant), as this is the first question Paul fields concerning his doctrine of the gospel (aside from a passive one in Romans 4. Also noteworthy is that this question is penned exactly the same as the one in Romans 9 that is a legitamite question that Paul answers)

Douglas Moo's commentary on Romans is noteworthy (found online re Romans 6. I think he works with D A Carson)

If you look carefully at what proceeded this statement in the letter to the Romans, you find Paul teaching very strongly on the grace of God. He makes the point over and over again that works cannot earn us relationship with or right standing in God's eyes. In fact, he teaches the message of the grace of God so strongly that he has to balance it lest he be misunderstood. Ignore chapter divisions. They were placed so that we can easily find our way around. They were placed where someone thought it logical to place them. Read chapter five and into chapter 6 without paying attention to them. Paul says, its all by grace, not by works. It is a free gift, not earned....What shall we say then (referring to everything he has just taught), shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Since it is the grace of God and not our adherence to law, can we just keep sinning and trust in grace? God forbid! It is by grace, but when we are born again we die to sin and are made alive unto Christ. We have been transformed. No longer is there in us the desire to continue in sin. How can a dead man continue living his old life?

So it is a gospel of the "almost too good to be true" news of God's grace shed abroad to us that would elicit a response that invokes this kind of statement.

If we really teach the grace of God for salvation the way Paul did, instead of the dead religious adherence to laws, rites, and form, we would need to respond to the same question that Paul responded to.

If we really teach the grace of God for salvation the way Paul did, instead of the dead religious adherence to laws, rites, and form, we would need to respond to the same question that Paul responded to.

You nailed it brother. :-)

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If we really teach the grace of God for salvation the way Paul did, instead of the dead religious adherence to laws, rites, and form, we would need to respond to the same question that Paul responded to.

I think that's an excellent reply. No one questions that the allusion made by the question is dead wrong, but the fact that Paul's gospel illicits such a question speaks volumes about how Paul went about it and the doctrine he taught.

The statement 'lawless gospel' would have been a great compliment to Paul.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

By "lawless Gospel" I meant the false Gospel that says you don't need to forsake your sins to be saved. It is true that no amount of obedience can ever earn salvation. The idea that we can be justified by works of the law is a false Gospel. But likewise, the idea that we don't need to give up our sins (repent) in order to be forgiven is also a false Gospel. We are not saved by our obedience, but we must change our mind about living a disobedient life in order to be saved. The Gospel that the prophets preached, John the Baptist preached, Jesus Christ preached, the Apostles preached, all included repentance. A lawless Gospel says that you can be saved while continuing in your sins. God promises wrath for those who continue in their sins. God promises mercy to those who give up their sins. Justification by grace through faith means that we are undeservingly forgiven by an obedient working faith. We are not justified by dead faith, but by true faith. True faith purifies the heart, sanctifies us, works by love, overcomes the world, and obeys God.

Brother, I don't think anyone would argue that repentance is not necessary for salvation. Scripture makes that very clear.

The term "lawless gospel" means that we are saved outside of the law. i.e., it is not in keeping the law that we become right with God, it is in receiving the sacrifice of Christ for atonement for our sins.

We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace, through faith. It is God's grace by which we obtain salvation. Faith is the vehicle through which we receive His grace. It is our positive response to trust in and receive what God has already provided. For by grace are we saved through faith...

By "lawless Gospel" I meant the false Gospel that says you don't need to forsake your sins to be saved.

Is forsaking your sins what saves you? Or what Christ did on the cross that saves you?

By reading the rest of chpt 6, I see Paul exhorting the church to put sins behind them because of their position in Christ, not to get saved in the first place.

I agree they go together, but there is most definitey an order, and justification comes before sanctification. One is the reason for the other.

Those that confuse this will never hear the response that Paul did.

The Gospel that the prophets preached, John the Baptist preached, Jesus Christ preached, the Apostles preached, all included repentance

Soo, the "good news" declared by them all was that man had to forsake his sin in order to be saved?

"7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, [b]preached the gospel[/b] beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." Galatians 3

You are trying to make the Gospel into a new law. Which none of the people you mentioned ever did!

Here is the Gospel-

"1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of [b]the gospel[/b] I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures..." 1 Corinthians 15

The Arminian,

God will not extend His mercy unless the conditions of atonement, repentance, and faith are first met. God cannot wisely set aside our penalty (forgiveness) unless there is an atonement (a substitute for penalty) a change of mind about sinning (repentance) and an obedient trust (faith). It would be unsafe for God to simply forgive man. Therefore these conditions must be met first. God cannot simply forgive those who remain in their sins, who continue in their disobedience. Just as God has good reasons for requiring the atonement, and He cannot forgive without an atonement, so also God has good reasons for requiring repentance, and He cannot forgive without man's repentance.

[i]Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isa 40:13-14 "Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?"[/i]

I think you presume too much about your knowledge of God. That is a dangerous thing, and you should carefully consider your ways.

I think you are misunderstanding this verse. In context it is talking about the wicked forsaking his way and the unrighteous man forsaking his thoughts "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways".

This verse doesn't mean that we can't understand God, or that we can't know His mind, or that we can't see His reasoning.

Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I think you are misunderstanding this verse. In context it is talking about the wicked forsaking his way and the unrighteous man forsaking his thoughts "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways". In other words, God's ways are not wicked, God's thoughts are not unrighteous. That is what this verse is saying. "Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts... for my thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways ar enot my ways..."

This verse doesn't mean that we can't understand God, or that we can't know His mind, or that we can't see His reasoning. It is to twist the meaning of that verse and take it out of context to use it that way.

Actually I believe you're both mistaken.
Look at the context. This is one of the most mis-quoted verses in the bible.

In this passage, God implores the backslider to come back to Him, He says...

Is 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

What God is saying is this: Forsake your wicked ways and return unto me, and I will have mercy and grant you an abundant pardon. WHY? HOW CAN WE KNOW GOD WILL RECEIVE US BACK?

"BECAUSE MY WAYS AREN'T YOUR WAYS..."

Mankind don't naturally lean towards 'free grace'. We aren't like God.

Since seeing this passage in it's correct light, it's become to me one of the most encouraging verses in the bible. God is telling us, "I'm not like you. I'll readily show mercy and an abundant pardon if you only come back."

We aren't nearly as gracious. We want our 'pound of flesh'. Not so with God.

To twist this passage to show God angrily demanding righteousness before taking us to Himself is the most gross error.

God is not like us. His thoughts are not ours. His ways are higher. Much higher.

He will show mercy. He will pardon abundantly.

Paul understood this grace well. That's why he had to answer the question in Romans 6:1.

Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.