MUST HEAR: The Tightrope Walker!! - Calvinism vs. Arminianism by Keith Daniel

This message is very good, this message brother Keith Daniel brings forth have been somehow my burden for a long time. May God merge his church into one in HIM without any division due to our favorite doctrines.

Take time to listen to this i urge my brethren and sisters in the Lord.

This is a much needed word, thanks for posting it.

Are there any other sermons available from Mr. Daniel's recent tour of America?

In Christ,

Ron

How desperately we need men like this; men who will stand in the gap between Calvinism and Arminianism and proclaim the full counsel of God from both sides [i]without[/i] establishing categorical allegiances of either.

I believe God is raising up more and more brethren of this understanding, brethren who can't be [i]placed[/i], brethren who are ready to love and fellowship with all Christians, but cannot exclusively align theologically with any one "ism"; brethren who can preach both sides free from the stigma and the pet theological intimidations of other aligned brethren.

I haven't listened to the message yet but you are right Paul. God has been grooming, raising and teaching me exactly as you are speaking in your previous post and I am sure there are many others He is bringing up with the same heart and understand. I have been speaking and preaching about this often over the past year or so.

God bless,

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org

I believe God is raising up more and more brethren of this understanding, brethren who can't be placed, brethren who are ready to love and fellowship with all Christians, but cannot exclusively align theologically with any one "ism"; brethren who can preach both sides free from the stigma and the pet theological intimidations of other aligned brethren.

This sense of aligning brings to mind an image that I read of recently. If someone standing on the ground takes a wire and aligns it perfectly with an overhead electrical wire - brings it into perfect parallel - the electricity in the overhead wire will run through the wire of the person standing on the ground. Somehow I do not think the same thing will happen if you align that wire with a fencepost.

I have downloaded this, but yet to listen to it. However from the comments made I would agree that this understanding is of vital importance for the church. I am glad there are many here on SI who take this view of not taking a party spirit line of following 'mere men'.

I think this applies not only to Cal/Arm, but also to KJV only, petecostal/baptist.. et al.

We can hold to our different views on these things as we all must have, but to stand throwing stones at those who differ, saying your not a true Christian unless you believe what I believe on all points of contention.....well I wonder who made you judge and jury of all the saints!

I think this applies not only to Cal/Arm, but also to KJV only, petecostal/baptist.. et al.

Amen, I totally agree.

We can hold to our different views on these things as we all must have, but to stand throwing stones at those who differ, saying your not a true Christian unless you believe what I believe on all points of contention.....

Amen again.

It is one thing to discuss ideas and express thoughts on theological matters, but when someone declares the other to be " not saved" it really bothers me.

There are those that line up to the left, to the right, and the middle of every issue.

They can all be equally dogmatic.

I like what Paul Washer said, "Calvinism is not the primary issue."

Salvation is.

The Cal/Arm debate caused me great grief when I saw that brothers contesting each others salvation. This is Satan's wedge to divide the elect on both sides of the spectrum. This wedge is more cruel than then nails that pierced our Lords hand and feet. We should not be unaware of his wiles. As for myself election and free will are not in contradiction neither are works and grace.

As for myself election and free will are not in contradiction neither are works and grace.

I had the privelege of hearing this message in person at the Maranatha Baptist Family Camp and was so very grateful for it. I asked Brother Keith afterwards if it was going to be posted on
SI because of the great need for this message to be heard and he replied in his inimitable way, "I believe so, I think they are recording all of these to be posted..."
May God take the message and the spirit of the message around the world so that our war will be with the real enemy of our souls, rather than with one another.

Clint

My I clear this Calv. / Arm. big deal up.

First open your mine up to who and what GOD can do and does knows as to when you was going to be born 6000 years ago and know every thought / choice that you will have or make your whole life. To the Arminianist he knows every choice you will ever make in your life. So You make a choice but it happen 6000 years ago and is already set in stone aleady. GOD knows everything you will do and as to a choice, that is a none event and a done deal. So Arminianist your making NO choices at all at todays time.

Calvinist With GOD knowing every move you will make 6000 years ago, he does not need to make any changes at all and already knows who is going and who is not going. If GOD already knows who is saved and who is evil , what changes would he want to make for he has who he wanted in the beginning 6,000 years ago. With everything he wanted set in stone ALEADY what changes would he want to make. 6,000 years ago all the changes he would want to make happen then and there is no need for any change or sellection now. With everything set in stone 6,000 years ago what would make him feel the need to change anything now. If you said he was pickey and wanted to play around with people and test people 6000 years later after he has made a decision how thing will be. It might show he unstable in what he would make the world to be and back up on decissions he already made. Also you have made the way you will go already and he has no need to change anything. He is just watching it all play out.

It's GOD's World and the Calvinist and the Arminist are subjects for people to discuss at this late hour and nothing else.

turtle4aire wrote:
My I clear this Calv. / Arm. big deal up.

First open your mine up to who and what GOD can do and does knows as to when you was going to be born 6000 years ago and know every thought / choice that you will have or make your whole life. To the Arminianist he knows every choice you will ever make in your life. So You make a choice but it happen 6000 years ago and is already set in stone aleady. GOD knows everything you will do and as to a choice, that is a none event and a done deal. So Arminianist your making NO choices at all at todays time.

Calvinist With GOD knowing every move you will make 6000 years ago, he does not need to make any changes at all and already knows who is going and who is not going. If GOD already knows who is saved and who is evil , what changes would he want to make for he has who he wanted in the beginning 6,000 years ago. With everything he wanted set in stone ALEADY what changes would he want to make. 6,000 years ago all the changes he would want to make happen then and there is no need for any change or sellection now. With everything set in stone 6,000 years ago what would make him feel the need to change anything now. If you said he was pickey and wanted to play around with people and test people 6000 years later after he has made a decision how thing will be. It might show he unstable in what he would make the world to be and back up on decissions he already made. Also you have made the way you will go already and he has no need to change anything. He is just watching it all play out.

It's GOD's World and the Calvinist and the Arminist are subjects for people to discuss at this late hour and nothing else.

This to me sound awful close to hypercalvinism. I agree God foreknew every choice man would ever make. But on the other hand, if God "ordained" every choice, that would make God the author of evil. If man does not chose to sin but rather as you say it is set in stone 6000 years ago every sin, action or thought man does.

Like Keith points out in the sermon there need to be balance with Gods word, the thing is the more you lean towards one side without balancing yourself out with Gods word the more you will slide over to the side you are leaning against, maybe you spend great length and time explain away certain scriptures that seemingly looks that they contradict your view. But instead of looking to our view as maybe flawed or not complete we often chose to explain away the other passages that dont line up.

Myself see the grand truths in both Gods sovereignty and almighty power displayed all through scripture. But i also see there is great responsibility from mans view.

As Spurgeon said:

[i]"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."[/i]

Great Spurgeon quote brother Christian. As you well know, it is one of my favorites. :-)

I just read this on the Anchored in Truth website:

"You see, we think because God is sovereign we just kind of coast along and God builds His kingdom. Oh, no. He says three times, diligence, diligence, moral excellence, manly energy, get after it.(II Peter 1:5) Why? Because God’s sovereignty includes man’s responsibility. Don’t ever forget that. There’s a wicked, abhorrent teaching that’s called hyper-Calvinism. It goes too far. It takes God’s sovereignty into fatalism. And you must guard yourself from that and run from that and fight against that. We are responsible to diligently seek our God and serve our God." - Jeff Noblit

bible4life wrote:
Personally i think 5poin calvinism is misunderstood, it is not that really well we our defending calvinsm but that calvinism is that tulip is what scripture reveals. I do agree that we should not be holding them up as something above Christ or the word but i think it is basically saying this is what the scripture reveals and through the tulip we show that. I personally think most of it is biblical, but i disagree with anyone who think man in is evil state will ever choose God in his own free will, he never will, thats why calvinsm has the beautiful biblical teaching of regeneration, where God gives us a new heart and his spirit to respond to him out of our free will, not making us robots us most seem to interpret it, but you will not choose God unless your heart is changed by God. Please understand this is not to cause a debate but i see cavinism misunderstood, possibly because people put it before Christ himself then i know its wrong, but i personally see it as a revealing of what scripture already teaches. You have your own beliefs we just don't put isms behind it, you see you all have your own doctrine just not with a name.

I do agree there are much misunderstandings, but i hope you reckon many calvinists misunderstand arminians as well :-) . I have seen Arminians make wrong assumptions against calvinist and i have seen calvinist make wrong assumptions about arminians. The thing is if we now prefer a more reformed view or arminian it is easy that anything slightly left or right of us becomes "hyper".

So for a reformed brother meeting someone with a arminian understanding he instantly stamp him as a "grace robber" , "salvation by works" and so on. This is not necessary so in all cases. and also the other way around, myself did for a while beleieve all Calvinsim was hypercalvinism and i was frankly disgusted. now i am comforted to know "moderate" calvinists as Spurgeon and many others fight hypercalvinism with the same zeal as they do arminians ;-) .

But true humility sees and acknowledge in some areas they know not fully how it works.

For me if hypercalvinism where true, then nothing would be necessary since everything is already set in stone, no need for prayer, reading the word, helping others, giving etc. No thing you do can change anything. If the opposite is true, dont know if that is pelagius doctrine but i am sure we have some similar extreme in the other side of the spectrum. Then if that where true it seem unnecessary for God to even come out from heaven since we only need to do a lot of stuff ourselves and it really comes down to what we can do or not do.

And both i think are people who a long time ago stopped looking what scripture says and are just reading the word to find confirmation to what they already think is true.

But anyhow, I am absolutely sure i could have the sweetest fellowship both with Spurgeon , Edwards, Whitefield even tho on some points i dont agree fully, yet i recognize God was flowing through them in their time.

I just really think the issue is as Keith points out in the sermon, preach all of Gods word, preach His sovereignty, His working, His Drawing us, His keeping us. But if you do that and dont preach "make your election and calling sure" , "stand fast" , "hold fast" and all the ALL verses :-) you preaching your opinion on what scriptures are Gods word.

Lets be men and women that come clothe with Gods full amour, to only cover half our body with amour leaves us open for attacks by the enemy.

Its like you driving off to work and you forgot your pants, yourself convinced you are fully clothed.

Lets be men and women of the word of God in these last days. Whetever we have a slight reformed or arminian bent.

God bless you all

Christian

A quote from Andrew Murray,

"It is only when God's people stand as one body, one before God in the fellowship of love, one toward another in deep affection, one before the world in a love that the world can see; it is only then that they will have power to secure the blessing which they ask of God. Remember that if a vessel that ought to be one whole is cracked into many pieces, it cannot be filled. You can take a potsherd, one part of a vessel, and dip out a little water into that, but if you want the vessel full, the vessel must be whole. That is literally true of Christ's Church, and if there is one thing we must pray for still, it is this: Lord, melt us together into one by the power of the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Spirit, who at Pentecost made them all of one heart and one soul, do His blessed work among us. Praise God, we can love each other in a divine love, for "the fruit of the Spirit is love." Give yourselves up to love, and the Holy Spirit will come; receive the Spirit, and He will teach you to love more." - from his book, Absolute Surrender, Chapter 2: The Fruit Of The Spirit Is Love

Great Spurgeon quote brother Christian. I completely agree with what you were stating as well

But instead of looking to our view as maybe flawed or not complete we often chose to explain away the other passages that dont line up.

By doing what you quoted we limit our understanding of God and rather than searching His riches, we begin to define our own ideas. May God be merciful to us when we do this.

Lord bless!

David

I just really think the issue is as Keith points out in the sermon, preach all of Gods word, preach His sovereignty, His working, His Drawing us, His keeping us. But if you do that and dont preach "make your election and calling sure" , "stand fast" , "hold fast" and all the ALL verses you preaching your opinion on what scriptures are Gods word.

This is a key point, there must be balance, proper perspective and proportion.

There are many complementary truths that seem to come in "sets". For example the Bible pictures believers both here on earth with Christ in them and also seated in heavenly places in Christ. Others sets include;

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility
Divine will and man's will
Individual and corporate
Rational and mystical

These are areas where the enemy can actually use God's Word against us by securing an over-emphasis or an imbalanced understanding of God's truth, thereby closing the door to acceptance of what is of God.

In Christ,

Ron

From reading the posts and listening to some of the message, it sounds like the beef with Calvinism is hyper-Calvinisim (which is what Keith Daniel was preaching against). Calvinism itself is just what the Bible teaches. It encompasses God's will and man's response. I quote Spurgeon on the subject:

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel . . . unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the Cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called."

A good paper to read on what true Calvinism is (if you're interested) can be found here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_intro.html . This paper succinctly presents what has come to be known as "Calvinism," though it is not in any way limited or even directly connected to Calvin or his teaching.