I was reading Oswald Chambers this morning and was wondering what you thought about this statement.
"God’s perfect will is unchangeable...God’s permissive will is the testing He uses to reveal His true sons and daughters."
What happens if I chose his permissive will on purpose...what exactly does that mean for me? Is this a salvation issue?
Can you post the quote's larger context? Maybe the whole section?
With care in Christ...
The way I've heard it described (John Piper's sermon 'The 2 Wills of God' (?) is excellent) is that God's perfect will is the same as his 'decrees' in that they will come to pass. No one's 'will' will get in the way, nothing on earth will stop God's decrees from coming to pass (Is 46:10; Dan 4:35 etc). His passive will refers to his commandments that he puts forward that includes the law, but that he knows will be disobeyed or obeyed by man.
It is similar to a Father in his household who passively wills for his children to be obedient and on occasion decrees that they will do so, or decrees a scenario that he decides will happen, according to his ability and will to make it happen.
Piper's message explains this seeming dichotomy far better than I can here.
It is similar to a Father in his household who passively wills for his children to be obedient and on occasion decrees that they will do so, or decrees a scenario that he decides will happen, according to his ability and will to make it happen.
Always make a distinction between God’s perfect will and His permissive will, which He uses to accomplish His divine purpose for our lives. God’s perfect will is unchangeable. It is with His permissive will, or the various things that He allows into our lives, that we must wrestle before Him. It is our reaction to these things allowed by His permissive will that enables us to come to the point of seeing His perfect will for us. "We know that all things work together for good to those who love God . . ." ( Romans 8:28 )— to those who remain true to God’s perfect will— His calling in Christ Jesus. God’s permissive will is the testing He uses to reveal His true sons and daughters. We should not be spineless and automatically say, "Yes, it is the Lord’s will."
-Oswald Chambers
Gotcha. I guess I'm used to hearing the words "decreetive" and "revealed" will of God. The decreetive will being what God has determined to happen throughout history, and the "revealed" will being his commandments, similar to the John Piper explanation.
This is actually an important distinction to make. The Scripture tells us to search out and obey the revealed will of God, but actually commands us to leave the decreetive will up to Him (Deut 29:29). This is important when determining "God's will for my life."
There is a extensive book on this topic titled "Decision Making and the Will of God".
With care in Christ...
The "Permissive Will" comes from this verse.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and [b]acceptable
I heard this teaching from the false prophet Kenneth E. Hagin some years ago.
He was successful in changing the word "Acceptable" to mean "Permissible" in that many have accepted what he said including me.
I don't subscribe to that way of thinking anymore.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Permissive Will". If anything, the closest would be to say that "My grace is sufficient for thee".
I don't believe there is such a thing as a "Permissive Will". If anything, the closest would be to say that "My grace is sufficient for thee".
I agree.
Seems to me that when we look at the WORD and work to categorize what would fall under God's permissive will, and what is his perfect/absolute will one will be be working to justify some disobedient act. Sounds to me like a dangerous mindset.
My thoughts..
ginnyrose
I posted this on another thread a while back, but I'll post it again. A very interesting article on the subject can be found here: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/are-there-two-wills-in-god/
He gives numerous Scriptural examples to support his claims.
After reading this question and pondering it a bit more I thought that perhaps I should come back and share more..
One can really get all tangled up when one works to discern whether this or that act is God's will or his permissive will.
Sin is sin. God allows it and its consequences to occur. This is a no-brainer to those of us who study the Scriptures. But was this act God's will? Is sin God's will? No. It must always be repented of.
However, suppose you get pregnant and are single, is this child's existence God's will? To determine this will lead you into a mine field fraught with danger and its consequence of extreme anger - by someone. I have had single, pregnant clients justify their sin because they got pregnant: this pregnancy is God's will! if it would not be they would not be pregnant!
How do you handle this?
What if you are the illegitimate child? what would you think? are you any less important to God?
Seems to me it is in our best interests - and others' - to simply leave some things be. We can't change it, we cannot change history. We are here and it is up to us to repent of [i]our
Blessings,
ginnyrose
My Mother wasn't legally married by the state. Her Sister and my Mother had the same man, living under one roof. What Dad did was certainly a sin. But he was of that mindset that he couldn't just leave my Mother in the hands of another man or to leave her to be alone to raise her children, he was too possessive. It's really hard to explain, but in order for me to be in existence, this sin had to take place. I know that sounds awful, but I don't know how to explain it. There is no justification for his actions, only mercy. It's like in order for Solomon to be king he had to come through David and Bathsheba. It was a sin yes, but God took that mess and made something good come out of it.
Ginny, I have to completely agree with you, there are just somethings that we simply don't have an answer for. However if it's sin, we must repent of it and see what God will do with that situation.Seems to me it is in our best interests - and others' - to simply leave some things be. We can't change it, we cannot change history. We are here and it is up to us to repent of our sin and let God take care of other peoples'.
P.S. My Mother was forced.
So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
The man heard God's voice...and Jesus says that His sheep hear his voice. So the man chose to excercise his free will and marry who he wanted. I'm sure there's consequences but is this a salvation issue?
Please don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to come against the Lord... I really want his will for my life but when it involves the heart.man oh man it's hard. Read the last verse in this proverb.
Proverbs 30:21
18 "There are three things that are too amazing for me,
four that I do not understand:
19 the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with a maiden.
Welcome to Hell! :-PSo what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B.
Greetings Silo
You wrote:So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
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I believe the Christian would be in rebellion to the Lord and I would ask if they are walking in willful disobedience do they really love the Lord. Its tells us in the Bible that "if you love me you will obey me" I think if the Christian married girl A instead of the one the Lord was clearly telling him to marry then he is in willful disobedience and shows that he does not love the Lord. Of course there still is forgiveness for sin if it is truely repented of but there will be consequence for the action still.
You asked if it is a salvation issue? I would say that if this Christian is willfully in rebellion to God then there is the real possibility that they are not truly saved. One who is truly living for Jesus will bare fruit to such, they will still struggle with sin, but when convicted of the sin, they are broken and repent before God. At least this has been my understanding of this kind of thing.
God Bless
mj
A quick story...
A number of years ago, my best friend passed away at the age of 30. He had many friends as he was probably the most well liked christian man I've ever met.
A couple days before his funeral, I was working in my paint booth when God's voice came to me and said, 'Call Lloyd'. The only Lloyd I knew I had met about 7 years prior when my friend had introduced me to him, and I didn't know where he worked or what his last name was.
I walked out of the booth up to my desk and asked God where he worked. God gave me the name of a heavy equipment dealer in town so I called and asked if there was a 'Lloyd' that worked there. She said 'hold please'.
Lloyd answered and I asked if he knew a man named, ______? He said 'Yes I do'.
I told him about the accident and when the funeral was. He shared that he and my friend had been planning on starting a business together and he couldn't understand why my friend wasn't getting back to him.
Lloyd was able to attend the funeral that he otherwise would've missed.
God showed me that day that we are like children before him. When I ask my children to get ready because we're leaving sometimes they ask 'Where?, Why? etc. and I'll tell them 'just get ready'. It is a joy when my children just respond in obedience and get ready to go without all the questions.
That's how it is with God. We are on a 'need to know' basis sometimes (actually a lot of times) and we should listen and trust.
God knows far more than we do. It's for our own good and the good of who knows who else?
I would say that if this Christian is willfully in rebellion to God then there is the real possibility that they are not truly saved
But just the fact that this man knows the voice of God tells me that He is saved because Jesus said MY sheep know my voice.
I'm not making excuses but I'm just wondering what happens when a man wants to marry the wrong woman so bad?? Maybe he's not there with the Lord yet on that level.
So what if your a Christian and God tells you to marry GIRL A but you disobey and marry GIRL B. Then the man intentionally marries the wrong woman and disobeyed GOD...on purpose. Let's say 6 months of God telling him No and he still does what He wants.
You know that the woman you married was God's plan because she said, "yes". Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "perfect one", and sadly that is a worldly concept that somehow has crept into the church.
I don't recall any Scriptures that say that there is ONE special person for every person and that if they can just find that person, all is well. Marriage is a means of sanctification, not of ease. It is also one of the most blessed callings a man and woman can enjoy.
Scripture is clear that we should marry a believer, and that's about it. But of course common sense tells us that we should find someone who has a similar call in life etc.
Lastly, marrying the "wrong" person is not a salvation issue at all! The ONLY salvation issue is what you do with Christ and His work on the Cross.
Greetings Silo
You wrote:But just the fact that this man knows the voice of God tells me that He is saved because Jesus said MY sheep know my voice.
___
I guess my only thought to you is this, if this Christian knows the voice of God and considers himself saved, then why did he choose to willfully disobey God? The Bible tells us that "If you love me you will obey me." Does this Christian not love the Lord? If he has been ignoring the Lord for six months and walking in rebellion to God will for his life then he is in sin and how can he be walking with God and walking in sin at the same time??
The Bible also tells us to submit our lives unto the Lord? Is your friend doing that? Is he submitting his life unto the Lord or is he being Lord of his own life? Who is making the decisions, is he submitting and obeying the Lord in all things, or is he chooses for himself what he wants in his flesh?
These are the things I would be asking him? If he willfully continues in this sin then you should take other brothers with you and share with him. If he truly believes that God has spoken to him to marry girl A and he marries another then that is rebellion and sin. the Bible does also clearly tell us how we must deal with those who profess to be a believer and walk in sin with out repenting..
God Bless
mj
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