the christians heart | SermonIndex

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

You see i am reading a book right now by jerry bridges called the pursuit of holiness. Wonderful book and has taught me a lot. But i have got to a problem that i am confused by. Jerry speaks that the christians heart is still wicked or has evil intentions and you can't trust it. As many of you know i have studied a lot into the teachings of paul washer and charles leiter on regeneration and how we our given a new heart according to ezekiel 36. Would not our new hearts be good now or they interpreting salvation differently then the likes of jerry bridges and others or am i missing something here. Is it possible ezekiel 36 is talking about after we our given our perfect and glorified bodies, i am confused. Anyone can hel it would be great.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

you know i was just taking a look at justification and regeneration by Charles Leiter and i would have to agree with him on the christians heart no longer being wicked but that it is the flesh that is the real cause of our wicked ness. He takes you to those verses in jeremiah 31 and 32 and exekiel 36 and it just shows you the work of regeneration and the salvation that God works out in a man that he saves. It is crazy that 2 men can have 2 different interpretations like that. One says the heart is still wicked and the other says God has a given us a new heart. That is crazy. I truly believe that if those verses in ezekiel 36 and jeremiah our meant towards salvation through Jesus Christ i could confidently say that you cannot lose your salvation, but that is something i can't really prove.I found my own answer, i really felt the holy spirit speaking to me of the truth that Charles Leiter was saying, nothing against jery bridges because his book is great but if that is what he really believes i think it is wrong, but maybe he doesn't believe that. Again i am confusing myself.Oh well.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

It's a difficult dilema man. Since that's an Old Testament verse, it's even hard for me to understand it. Sometimes bible4life, the bible can just be hard to understand. Take what you can understand though and just keep reading.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

And Paul Washer, Charles Leiter, and Jerry Bridges are all just men. I'm sure you know that :)

They all have their own say on the matter. Just try to get along even though hearing various opinions can sometimes leave you wondering what to think and just plainly baffled. Again, they're just different men with different understandings of things.

Like I said, just keep reading the bible.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

I know it is kinda of confusing but i sense deep down within me that the those old testament verses our speaking on the new covenant with Christ. I understand they our men but the holy spirit lives inside of them to speak and interpret the truth so if the holy spirit is speaking through them, we can say God is speaking through them can't we. Do you understand what i am saying, i mean i always hear that but if the holy spirit is only their for us personally and not to speak through us to interpret scripture, exhort the brethren etc. then should we ever listen to any man or any book besides the bible.

H

hmmhmm Dec 17, 2009

I always though this made sense. Former before conversion your old man reigned in your heart, when ever the world, sin , lusts, flesh whter that came klnocking you willingly opened the door. Now scripture says if we are regenerated this man is dead, a new man is in there, but sometimes if he is not alert and on guard these can come through the door anyway, maybe he is week due to poor diet and not strong enough to hold them out.

God killed the old man on the cross, now we crucify the flesh and its desires. I can give some scriptures later but i have to run now!

God bless

A

Aussiedler Dec 17, 2009

There are many verses even in the New testament, that tell us to purify our hearts. So If our hearts are totally clean through the new birth it would make no sense to purify them any further.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. " - James 4:8

James is writing his epistles to born again christians. There are more verse, for example Hebr 10:22, who is telling us to sprinkle our hearts clean, 1. Ti1:5 tells us that the END OF THE COMMANDMENT is love out of a PURE HEART, etc

And then you have the other side, like Act 15:9, where it says, that it is GOD who PURIFIES THE HEART. There are few preachers who preach both sides of this truths - most of them tend to lean to one side.

(Actually the theology concerning the "flesh" is the same - on the one side is our flesh ARE ALREADY CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST (past) and then there are commands to mortify flesh)

This is the same as in the Old Testament: There it says in many verses (you can find them with eSword) that God will "give us a new heart" or "a clean heart", that is the part that only God can do. And then it says, that we have to "circumcise the foreskin of our heart" - That is our part. God will never do our part and it is impossible for man himself to do gods part. Only God can give a new heart. But we have to do the cirumcising, that is the denying of self, the forgiving, the humbling, the repenting.

So as we humble ourselfs and clean our hearts, God will give us more and more a pure heart.

Brethren, don't be satisfied with mere theological understanding of this topic. Proverb 4:23 speaks of the importance of the heart, and Jesus mentioned that OUT OF THE HEART PROCEEDES every thing and that the MOUTH SPEAKS out auf THE ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART.

If our mouth speaks evil things, than don't come with theology and say "but I have a clean heart". You have not. Humble yourself, repent and God will make your heart cleaner than ever before.

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

I actually emailed brother leiter about this because i was confused and this is how he responded;
John,

It has been many years since I read the book by Jerry Bridges, but as I recall, his position basically falls in to the Puritan/Reformed tradition. This tradition says that the Christian either “has” or “is” both an old man and a new man, and the old man is equated with the “old nature.” I believe the Bible teaches that the Christian is a new man with a new nature, but he still has “the flesh” to contend with.

It is important to realize that both positions recognize the fact that believers still struggle with sin. The difference has to do with: 1. Identity. Who is the Christian really, in his deepest being, his essential identity? 2. Victory. Do I have to be defeated by sin? If sin is part of my essential identity, it is still an expression of what I really want and really love. If it is a more superficial aspect of my personality (the flesh), I can “walk in the Spirit and I won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh.”

Hope this helps,

Charles Leiter

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

There are some great insights on this topic in this message featured right now:

~~[b]~~Reality in the Christian Life by Zac Poonen[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4272&commentView=itemComments

sermonindex Dec 17, 2009

hey greg thank you, i will listen to it tonight, i have heard of zac poonen but haven't heard him yet, only small portion of him before. But thank you, i really want to understand this.

T

Theophila Dec 17, 2009

Hi Brother,
I think part of the problem is an unclear understanding of the nature of man.
God's desire for us is that we be sanctified spirit,soul and body as per I Thess. 5:23.

Man is a spirit, he has a soul and he lives in a body. Our spirits were totally changed at the new birth, we are commanded to continually renew{change} our minds [part of the soul] to come in agreement with God and our bodies will be totally changed when the Lord returns.

Think of it as a man, who owns a laptop and leaves in a house. Owner [spirit], laptop [soul] and house [body].

Those who say our hearts are completely changed are right because our spirits are completely changed at the new birth. II Cor. 5:17

Those who say our hearts are not completely changed are also right because our souls are not completely changed yet. In fact, the whole of the Christian journey is that of continual transformation into the image of Christ. This is where many fail and falter because they do not realize this is where the real war is being fought.

The enemy of our souls works day and night to
1] Keep unregenerate men in their sin till they enter eternal damnation

Failing that
2]He works to keep regenerated men in a state of perpetual infancy till they are of little use to themselves or to the God they profess to love.

Our "work" is to continually be in agreement with our Teacher so He can [with our participation] work in us so our souls can mature to spiritual adulthood.

Hope this helps.