Kerry pushes 'GLBT' bumper stickers

Anyway, its too late for this country, 9/11 was just the beginning. Too many of our children have been burned in the fire. Judgement will fall. Our country will lose this war. How do you know it is too late? Is this something God has shown you? Has the legal limit on sin been met? If so, what do we do? Do we stop praying for revival and awakening?You said "judgment will fall". What type of judgment? A final judgment? Do you believe that a remedial judgment has already fallen on America?

and then nobody paid attention on Febuary 1, 2003 when we woke up and saw one of our nations proudest technological achievements just splayed and sprayed against the blue sky in a fiery display, the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. When I was called on the phone and told to turn on CNN, and I saw that awful awful picture, my first thought, God has spoken. For a month before every had been talking and praying, is this coming war just? and now it seemed to me that the Lord Almighty spoke, and quite clearly. When I asked other believers if they thought this disaster was divine rebuke, NOBODY agreed with me.That is quite a reach, ever considered the family's of those aboard that disaster? Would you be willing to repeat this to them? Not trying to be provocative but this is surely speculation at best and unnecessary in the least.Perhaps a different perspective. Setting aside all the political banter for a moment, this is well worth a listen:http://www.truthforlife.org//MP3DArchive.php(Public Prayer: Its Importance and Scope 1 Timothy 2: 1-8 )Part A [Sep. 10 2004] Part B [Sep. 13 2004]Related thread:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3051&forum=48&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=1

If Bush is a true Christian, then so was I three years ago when I was claiming I was; going to church 3 times per week and sending my kids to christian school. the fact was- that I was not, I was a lukewarm, backslidden person who was holding onto my own rights and not fully surrendered to the Lord. On the outside, I looked spiritual and good- I mean, look, i was doing all the right things to SHOW I was a christian. Yet, I have to guarantee that if I had died three years ago, I wouldn't be in heaven. I had one foot in the WORLD and one foot in heaven. hmmmm, who else might have one foot in the WORLD and one foot in heaven??All these things we claim to say about ourselves and others that make us christians- like "why" were we saved?(for God's glory, because He is worthy), have we surrendered all? have we died to self and sin? don't these apply to presidents as well?Just because books claim something and a man claims something doesn't make it so. I cannot tell you the feeling I have about the deception that is going on here.How can it be that we listen to Wilkerson and Ravenhill and Tozer and then we let the standards slide for one man?If Bush is a true Christian, then the Purpose Driven Life and Seeker sensative churches are all fine and dandy too- because they are running the same kind of deception. That mediocrity of our faith is good enough. I know so many neighbors who act like Bush is next to Jesus. They all go to church 3 times per week, have Bush signs in their yard, claim they're "christian", quote how "good' the president is and follow his example by accepting all faiths as "good". Yet, they are the same ones who are getting divorced, watching football everytime it's on, drinking their beer in front of their kids and promoting american "PRIDE"-as well as all types of other PRIDE. It STINKS.Bush has been president for the last four years and look at the state of the church- why because he stands for the typical christian in this country. Everyone thinks things are all fine and dandy because we have a "christian" president. Let's be happy and relax and SLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!We don't need to be sleeping. I don't care if Kerry gets in- maybe SOMEONE WILL WAKE UP. Maybe people will get on their knees and pray that revival comes to america. Doesn't anyone see that the way things are right now, that america will stay asleep???? Patriotism is idolatry in this country. I think the enemy is very happy that the country is continuing to sleep, especially the "christians". That's where he wants them.How can we be in disagreement with the rest of the 'in name only' christians in this country about how to enter the kingdom of heaven- yet we agree about the president? This doesn't make any sense.It truly makes me want to leave this country and go where there is persecution so that I may be among true believers who are sold out for Christ alone. It won't be long before it's here anyway. While we're sleeping, they will come.I am not saying that we shouldn't pray for our leaders. I pray that Bush will wake up and serve the living God like He deserves to be served. With no compromise. May the Lord's will be done in his life.In Him, Chaninedit: by the way, when I was a 'in name only' christian, running my own life; I was also a typical conservative republican who listened and believed all the hype. I had all the stickers and was on all the mailing lists and invited to all benefits and campaign dinners (local);as soon as the Lord woke me up from my sleep and I surrendered to the Lord, I saw through all of it. I had been one of them and they were all just like I was.

Brother Mike,allow me to pose a question, would I be right in assuming that you believe that this war in Iraq is just?What my opinion is of whether or not the war in Iraq is just or not has nothing to do with making a dangerous statement like that. For one, how can you back it up?Doesn't this just lend itself to all kinds of pronouncements? What about the tragedy in Russia recently? Or Sudan? Or the Hurricanes?...Are all these judgements?There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Luk 13:1-5

I have awaken in the middle of the night now and my heart is very heavy about this subject. Brothers and sisters, please pray about this subject. please allow the Lord to reveal the truth to us and do not follow the ways or teachings of men. the Lord is gracious and slow to anger but He does warn. i think Bro. Wilkerson would be the first to agree that all these things are warnings and time is running out. America is much worse than sodom and gomorrah and it is stinking rotten as it sits here in smug pride saying we are 'the best'. once again I am reminded of Ezekiel 16. The Lord has made it clear to me as well as david Wilkerson and many other people who grieve for the sins of this country that we are, as a country, idolatrous, adulterous, rich- thinking we have need of nothing. we are sitting here in our righteous religion as a nation who is supposed to be Christian- and we are a foul thing in the sight of our Lord. it is the religious, the church which stinks to high heaven- not just the wordly , the sinners. it's the church. His own people.oh, when will we see past the kingdoms of this world. when will we look with spiritual eyes at the condition of america. look at the disgust of the rich and prideful church- of which Bush is a part of. I am homesick for God. i want so badly for him to just come down reveal all that is not of Him so that no one can be blinded any more. so that the enemie's schemes may be revealed. think, think. who would be the antichrist (if there is one man who is the antichrist) will he come as a liberal democrat who is all for abortion and homosexuality and the obvious crimes? of course not- that would be way too obvious. everyone expects that. remember it will decieve even the elect. just as most of christendom is deceived about the rapture of the church and the narrow road to salvation- which both allow the church to go on sleeping in comfort. I am not saying that Bush is the antichrist but what he represents just may be. Oh, I have never felt so strong in my spirit about getting this point across to people. i don't care if people think I am nuts. this is one area that the Lord has shown me warning after warning that we must be AWAKE. we must not follow the crowd here. who do you think will be persecuted when the time comes? those who appose the normal way of christianity, the kind that crosses over, the Schuller type church, the govt ok'd christianity.oh, I have no words that I can say to get this all across. only anguish. brothers and sisters please pray that we know the truth. in our homes and our hearts we must be prepared, we must prepare our children to walk the narrow road against all whatever may come against this narrow path of faith we follow. we must teach them the difference between this worlds accepted view of christianity and true christianity - the kind that brings persecution.I have walked the road of conservative republican "christian"s in this country. i walked it and was an idolater, an adulterer all the while. when the Lord required meto surrender over everything to Him, along went my citizenship and my allegiance to anything but Him. as I gave up those rights, He just ripped off the blinders on my eyes to those things which are not of Him. we have to be willing to give up the right to be right. to let go of what we have held dear for so long. Though I always preach love- and you all know me, I cannot and must not be quiet about this. if I go to my grave, I will still be warning about the dangers of the govt and the christianity that it cloaks itself in. it is a cover up. there is a reason for it all and it is to deceive. and it is working. why would all the lukewarm church be going along with it if it wasnt working?we must choose now who we will serve; God's ways or man's. if we don't choose now, then when it is time to choose, it maybe too late. Oh, Lord let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I cannot wait until the day that He returns so that all that is hidden in darkness will be exposed. so that all that is not of Him will not stand. Oh, Jesus come and lead us in Your ways of humbleness. reveal your truth to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. All we want is for you to be glorified. devastate us until we are clinging to you for dear life.In Him, Chanin

Neilgin1,Sorry, you are still wrong. Your non-answer is an answer. Forgive the assumption, but there is no way, as a Spirit-filled, born-again, Bible believing Christian, that you can say that this war is just. Willing to forgive the assumption but what you did and are doing is setting up a straw-man to knock back down again.I purposefully ignored the question earlier because I could see where you were going with this and I might add you never answered my question in regards to whether you would be willing to repeat this earlier pronouncement of judgment to the the family's of those who suffered in that tragedy.Another danger is to assume that you have people all figured out because they might bring a consideration before you. I know it's easier to categorize and stick people into neat little boxes than to honestly consider that our own opinions might very well be wrong, mine included. But it is still judging with wrong judgment.But to clarify and give my own worthless opinion on this war and politics in general...First off want to redirect something here. This thread is getting off track not only in scope but in topic, will post at the end the intention of this category, that in essence is in prayer. The topic at hand, that of Mr. Kerry's campaign joining ranks with those who wish to promote their homosexual agenda has been lost in the verbiage and similarly your comment "...but there is no way, as a Spirit-filled, born-again, Bible believing Christian, that you can say that this war is just." is odd in that for one, no one ever said this, it is an extrapolation of your assumptions and two this in itself is a false statement. Can you really judge someones heart by an opinion?Have had my fill of all the political rhetoric in times past just as well and frankly see all this wrangling over half-truths, loose facts, bi-partisan, agenda wielding, never ending debates over how 'they' are going to fix the problems...I don't ascribe to 'party' doctrine or any of the sloganeering, nor to the mindset of what a modern day 'Christian' is 'supposed' to believe about a candidate or a specific position as they might have us all corralled into.My 'opinion' on whether or not this is a 'just' war? Honestly, I don't know. Nor did I feel compelled to have to give some reasoning as to why I should have to answer that question. It is obvious that there is a lot of questions and lot of problems with the reasoning going in, but I don't think either side has all the facts and as usual in these things both sides are talking past each other without considering honestly all that is entailed. Not going to get bogged down in all this and I am not a moderate or liberal or conservative in the sense of the new definitions of those words.Were the principles collide with Gods word I am against it and where they agree I am for it.And a note on our sitting President. He is not a preacher nor is he teaching Christian doctrine so to pass judgment on his walk with the Lord I believe is equally dangerous, whether pro or con.Let us keep in mind that there is a congress, legislature, Judges and a whole system of government that comes into play. To pray for our leaders is not a cop-out nor should it be a tag-on to our opinions, it should be an essential if we really want to see any real change in this world that we live in.We can easily get caught up in emotional issues of the day and forget that this world is built on lies. This coincided with my thoughts this morning: Living By The TruthLastly, let us not forget that we are not the only country on this planet, there are leaders in nations of other people even our brethren that frequent this site who need our prayers.Here is an excerpt of the scope of this forum heading (Intercession and Current Events):"Praying for and interacting regarding current trends and events, for men in authority and their hearts and influence."Please consider reading the full posting.GUIDELINE: Praying for current trends and events

The priestly, first-priority-prayer - 1 Tim 2 - to be engaged in as a fundamental sign of a man born-again and submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ does not consider political positions in terms of being right or wrong, right or left, political correctness or its antipode demonstrated by various candidates aspiring to presidency.Our sole duty, a duty marked by a Cross large enough to be shunned by most people in our very modern churches, is to pray FOR the leadership for the sake of establishing a setting in which godliness receives recognition.Our very negligence in interceding FOR the leadership is one of the brightest sign signalling our, the Church’s, unwillingness to become a testimony in a dying world.If our praying is inspired and directed by party preferences, even by what is good and better from certain human and humanistic perspective, it is not to be heard in Heaven simply because our “good” is not good enough.Lars W.

Well.A few things come to mind:- We must take care that we are obeying God in our attitude/behavior/etc. towards president Bush (and senator Kerry, and the guy that cut us off in traffic, and our pastor, and Saddam Hussein, and the rest of them). Whether we consider him a friend or an enemy, we'd better love him as we love ourselves. That might include giving rebukes that would make John the Baptist raise his eyebrows.- The question of whether this war is just or based on lies is somewhat moot if one is merely attempting to discern whether president Bush is a 'real' (i.e. "going to heaven") Christian. He's given us plenty more warning signs that are far clearer than the accusations that he's lied about the war. Check out http://www.bushrevealed.com/Douglas Wilson posted an article 09/11/2004 on this topic, and I think it to be quite worth reading:Wishing I Could Vote for BushThere are quite a few reasons, actually. But none of them push me over the line. After eight years of Clinton, it has been comparatively pleasant to have a government staffed with grown-ups. Add to that the fact that Jean-Francois Kerry is, in countless ways, insufferable. N'est pas? Couple this with the fact that Bush is predictable -- he appears to me to be driven by principle, even when I differ with those principles. Bush's approach to the problem of terrorism seems to me to have been admirable in many ways. Some might point to the apparent quagmire in Iraq as a counter-example, but we have to remember that our choice was not between a quagmire in Iraq and no quagmire in Irag. The choice was between American soldiers dying abroad or civilians dying here. I believe we have had three years of freedom from terrorism domestically because of Bush's response.Another reason for considering support for Bush is that a Republican president brings with him at least the possibility of decent Supreme Court appointees, while a Democratic president provides us with a guarantee of horrendous Supreme Court appointees. This argument is not as compelling as it might be because the Republican record is spotty at best. After twenty years of abortion, Roe v. Wade was upheld by the Supreme Court, and the Court that upheld that grotesque decision was made up of Republican appointees, 7 to 2.Probably the best argument that Christians have offered for supporting Bush is that we need to learn how to advance our agenda incrementally. We ought not to be sectarian in our politics. We have to be patient. We have to pay our dues. Bush in office provides us with more opportunities for good than Kerry in office does, and so we have to take what we can get. Since it is almost certain that either Bush or Kerry will be the next president, why should Christians not rally behind the one that is least objectionable?The problem is idolatry. George Bush is not a proposed law, or a referendum. He is man who has a responsibility to worship God through Jesus Christ. And this he does, as a baptized and confessing Christian. He is like Solomon, and is a covenant member. But, also like Solomon, he is doing something else. George Bush, in a disciplined and principled way, has supported and advanced syncretistic idolatry. He was central in that abominable National Cathedral worship service after 9-11. The National Cathedral really has become a National Pantheon. He had the Islamic holy month of Ramadan honored in the White House. He paid religious honor at a Shinto shrine in Japan.Incrementalism makes good sense when we are talking about proposed legislation. Passing a law that outlaws partial birth abortion is not compromised just because the law does not obtain everything we are after. One step at a time. Laws or bills or measures almost require incrementalism by definition. But men, when they need to repent in fundamental ways, must not do so incrementally.Take again the example of a reforming king, like Hezekiah or Josiah. They did what they could, and the Scriptures praise them as godly kings, even if they did not succeed in removing all the high places. If there were idolatrous places of worship in Israel, incrementalism in removing them could make good practical sense. But say that the king in question was personally worshipping in all these pagan temples. Incrementalism in backing out of such idolatry is incoherent. Confronted with ten forms of idolatrous worship, a godly king in ancient Israel might not have tackled them all at once. But if he was participating in all ten, repentance would look like simple repentance, and he would walk away from all ten, all at once. He would not detach himself from idolatry incrementally. Nathan the prophet would not have arrived at court to urge him to "taper off."So the central problem is that our national evangelical leaders who support Bush show no signs of any willingness to confront the central problem here, which is that of syncretistic idolatry. In fact, all the indicators are that our evangelical leaders are complicit in this sin, or have accomodated themselves to it in some fashion. Who is the evangelical leader, who has the president's ear, who has confronted him about this? And a private confrontation doesn't count -- these are high profile public sins, and the confrontation needs to be as public as the sin.Further, this illustrates that incrementalism is a two-way street. Who is more likely to get politically-involved Christians to participate in idolatrous worship services? Bush or Kerry? Who is more likely to get Christians to timidly occupy their assigned corner in the National Pantheon? Bush or Kerry? Who is more likely to get conservative Christians to go along with some generic "people of faith" approach? Bush or Kerry? Given the zeal with which many Christians support Bush (despite such glaringly obvious problems) I think we already have our answer. Incrementalism doesn't work if you sell your soul along the way.In conclusion, I readily admit that this is all very easy for me to say. I live in Idaho, which is about as likely to go for Kerry as it is to go for Nadir (no, not a spelling mistake). Further, I am beginning to suspect that Bush will not only win, but that he will win in a blow-out. I am not at all convinced that the election will be a squeaker like last time. But if I lived in a swing state, and if I knew the election was going to be close, the pressure would be on me good, and I confess it. There would be beads of sweat on my forehead. I cannot abide Mr. Kerry, and his running mate, Mr. Happy Bottom, is little better. Couple this with the fact that I really like George Bush. In fact I like him so much that it really distresses me that among our national Christian leaders, there has been no one willing to play the role of a faithful prophet and friend. George Bush is a layman, and he could always excuse himself by pointing to all the evangelical leaders, like Billy Graham, who follow this same approach. Who will tell the president to stop including the idols, and in doing so, make it a fundamental issue? Billy Graham? Jerry Falwell? World magazine? Again, the problem is the Church, and the fact that the position I am arguing is controversial shows that their incrementalism is working far better than ours is.

Saints, we can all argue till the cows come home about whether the war in Iraq is just, or unjust, just as we can all be judgmental as to whether President Bush is a man of God or not ... i personally think that President Bush is saved because the Word says that no man can claim Christ as His Savior unless by the power of the Holy Spirit, and i've heard him do so on a couple of occasions ... If you all knew some of the mistakes i've made in my past, and some of the still stupid things i do even at present (having to beg for forgiveness from Christ), you might judge me unsaved too ... But i digress ... Bottom line is this, we all may speculate about God's will at present, and His will for the future, but if it's past events were talking about i think we can all agree that apparently it was God's will ... So it was God's will that Bush 43 be President, or it would not have happened ... And it's apparent that it's God's will that we're at war in Iraq, for if not we wouldn't be there ... This is something that our Lord said to me a few weeks ago after listening to Daniel, when He caused me to post ...IS IT OF CHANCE ... OR IS IT OF GOD?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3148&forum=35&0He said to me, "My people see my hand in the history of the past, and in My promise of their future, but they never see me in their present" ... i suggest that it's a very difficult thing to see just where God is going with His plan in a present situation, and to surmise the future, without His special revelation to someone is more than impossible, but all past transpirations are the will of God ... Some folk say that God has two wills ... One permissive (He lets Things happen) ... And one Sovereign (He makes things happen) ... i've subsequently, after listening to the prophets have come to this conclusion, "Whether He let, or makes things happen, He's sovereign" ... That's the lesson of Daniel to King Nebudchanezzer, and that's the lesson to us ... God is in control of ALL! ... President Bush being in power, and this war in Iraq, even tho we might not understand it, serves God's purpose, or it just simply wouldn't be ...i personally am voting for President Bush because he at least spouts the name of Jesus, and has dared to tell the press that he confers with God in prayer concerning the things of this nation, and all else, including his reasons for this war, i leave between he and our Lord ... i'm voting for Bush because he seems a lot closer to what i believe as a Christian, than John Kerry, and if i'm wrong, and am questioned by God of my decision when He opens my book, then i can honestly say to Him, "Lord i did what i thought was best as a Christian American voter for the country you placed me in" ... i can tell you saints that while we're all preoccupied with our discussions, arguements, beliefs and disbeliefs, God's will is being done in us, by us, with us, for us, to us, and in spite of us, whether we agree with His methods, or the people He choses to use, saved and unsaved ... i'm voting for Bush, and if it's the Lord's will he'll be president for four more years ... If Kerry gets in, then that too would be the Lord's will ... All i know is that He lifts up, and He takes down, from the highest, to the least of us ... And no matter who rules America, or any other nation, super power or bananna republic, it's our God manipulating all to His advantage, to the coming and establishment of His kingdom on earth ...He makes Himself very clear who's in control of the so called "matters of men" in Daniel ... Amen