Are YOU Holy? | SermonIndex

sermonindex Dec 18, 2009

This is a loaded question I know, but we are always talking about Holiness and there are posters who preach that we ought to be holy and we certainly should be, but I would like to know if you consider yourself to be Holy?

I don't consider myself to be holy, not by a long shot, and without holiness no man shall see the LORD.

Now please don't answer this way, "I am in Christ and that makes me holy". We can all say that, but I am asking You, do you consider yourself to be holy?

With your yes and or no answer, please give your reasons why?

Thank you

sermonindex Dec 18, 2009

DeepThinker wrote:
This is a loaded question I know, but we are always talking about Holiness and there are posters who preach that we ought to be holy and we certainly should be, but I would like to know if you consider yourself to be Holy?
I don't consider myself to be holy, not by a long shot, and without holiness no man shall see the LORD.
Now please don't answer this way, "I am in Christ and that makes me holy". We can all say that, but I am asking You, do you consider yourself to be holy?
With your yes and or no answer, please give your reasons why?
Thank you

Well since you don't consider yourself "holy" and without "holiness" know one shall see the Lord...well now your in a pickle. Cuz if thats true and you drop dead right now from something then you don't get to see the Lord cuz you weren't "holy".

I respond I am in Christ and so that makes me Holy. Just like the thief on the cross was made suddenly holy to then be with Christ in paradise.

Oh how quickly the transaction can be made!

sermonindex Dec 18, 2009

Cuz if thats true and you drop dead right now from something then you don't get to see the Lord cuz you weren't "holy".

Ah, but I didn't say I wasn't holy, I just said that "I don't consider myself to be holy, not by a long shot". Many brethren don't see themselves to have died with Christ because of their problems with the flesh, however, we are dead regardless if we see it or not.

This is not about me, the question is do you consider yourself to be holy?

Thank you for your answer.

L

Leo_Grace Dec 18, 2009

It would be difficult to respond without first saying that I KNOW I am holy in the sight of God by my faith in Christ. Having said that, I KNOW I am still a sinful man despite all my best efforts to try and please God in everything that I do, so I would not lay claim to the title of "Holy". It is God who places that title on me by the blood of Christ.

M

MaryJane Dec 18, 2009

Greetings Deepthinker

I think the best way that I can answer this is to say that I do not consider myself(maryjane) to be Holy. I do however know that Jesus who is in me is Holy and since the Father loves the Son and when the Father looks and me He sees the Son in me, I feel confidant by the cover of Jesus that I am Holy in Christ Jesus!

God Bless
mj

sermonindex Dec 18, 2009

Leo and Mary Jane, what a sweeping flow of rain that passed through your posts.

sermonindex Dec 18, 2009

DeepThinker wrote:
Cuz if thats true and you drop dead right now from something then you don't get to see the Lord cuz you weren't "holy".
Ah, but I didn't say I wasn't holy, I just said that "I don't consider myself to be holy, not by a long shot". Many brethren don't see themselves to have died with Christ because of their problems with the flesh, however, we are dead regardless if we see it or not.
This is not about me, the question is do you consider yourself to be holy?
Thank you for your answer.

I know...I'm just messin with you.

I am of course "positionaly" Holy by the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus. I have been born again, so therefore I am a partacker of His work that has made me holy in Him.

Now, "practicaly" holy? Well to a degree yes. I am holy, set apart for Him in many areas. However there are areas where I am not where I believe I should be according to the scriptures.
I do desire to be practicaly holier each day.

D.J. Kennedy once said that some are "holier" than others. I believe this is biblical.

T

trxx Dec 19, 2009

thingsabove wrote

"D.J. Kennedy once said that some are "holier" than others. I believe this is biblical."

We often look at ourselves and consider our "holiness" or lack of. If we were to ascribe to ourselves, say on the usual scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being holy and 1 being a poor wretched man/woman deserving only of God's fiercest wrath, how might we scale our holiness?
The problem that I see is that we would even ascribe a scale to holiness. We either are holy or we are not holy. I do not believe that there are degrees of holiness. We are holy because it is a gift of God. We are not holy in and of ourselves plain and simple. We all deserve God's wrath but because of His great grace we are offered that which we cannot attain, holiness. Neither will we, in and of ourselves, get holier. We simply cannot, we will not. We may shed some of our sinful "shackles" but we will not be any holier than what we are now.
All this to say again that I believe that there are no degrees of holiness. We are holy or we are not holy.

L

Lysa Dec 19, 2009

trxx wrote:
thingsabove wrote
"D.J. Kennedy once said that some are "holier" than others. I believe this is biblical."
We often look at ourselves and consider our "holiness" or lack of. If we were to ascribe to ourselves, say on the usual scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being holy and 1 being a poor wretched man/woman deserving only of God's fiercest wrath, how might we scale our holiness?
The problem that I see is that we would even ascribe a scale to holiness. We either are holy or we are not holy. I do not believe that there are degrees of holiness. We are holy because it is a gift of God. We are not holy in and of ourselves plain and simple. We all deserve God's wrath but because of His great grace we are offered that which we cannot attain, holiness. Neither will we, in and of ourselves, get holier. We simply cannot, we will not. We may shed some of our sinful "shackles" but we will not be any holier than what we are now.
All this to say again that I believe that there are no degrees of holiness. We are holy or we are not holy.

Christ's life, death, and resurrection has done many things for us that the old covenant could not do, except help us be obedient.

I cannot put words into his mouth, but DJ Kennedy might have meant that there are some more "obedient" than others.

Would you agree that there are degrees of obedience and some might be more obedient then others?

sermonindex Dec 19, 2009

lysa, ..Well I really didn't want to get to deep into this. However, yes I belive that Kenned y was reffering to people being more "santified" because of growing in obedience.

Trxx said dosen't believe can be more or less holy. This is also similar to viewing all sin as equal. I believe that there is are levels of sin. just as I believe that there are levels of holiness or sanctification.

However having said all that. Any christian who beleives either way I beleive is blessed if we seek to love and obey Jesus.

sermonindex Dec 19, 2009

"D.J. Kennedy once said that some are "holier" than others. I believe this is biblical."

I know what James Kennedy is saying. Not sure if it can be true for people, but is true of places.

The Temple was a holy place, but beyond the veil it was called the "Most Holy".

I do agree with you that there are degrees of sins and degrees of relationships. Daniel was called, "Greatly Beloved" by God. What a wonderful salutation from God to give to a human being, what a privilege.

Just adding some thoughts to the pot.

sermonindex Dec 19, 2009

No, I don't think I'm holy. I don't know why but I just don't think I am. Maybe it's because of my sin?

T

trxx Dec 19, 2009

Lysa said, "Would you agree that there are degrees of obedience and some might be more obedient then others?"

I agree wholeheartedly with this. This is often what we mean when we speak of holiness.
But I believe that it is important that we know where our holiness comes from. Our holiness comes not from our actions. Our holiness comes as a gift. However good we might attain to we will never be holy apart from grace.
We know that God must dwell in the Holy Place. The believer is indwelt by the Deity. If we sin, must He then leave and return when we repent? I'm afraid that He would of necessity dwell outside of me more that within if I was holy according to my deeds. I don't even realize all of my sins. Rather, because He has given me His holiness (righteousness) as a gift, I am always holy, and He inhabits me always.
I am not sure of all of the implications and even to write this out helps me to explore and understand what He has been teaching me of late. Just the thought that there are no degrees of holiness is new to me within the past few weeks. Previous to that I learned of where my holiness comes from. I struggled with how He might inhabit me if I was yet sinful in any way. I believe that I am beginning to better understand.
Yes, there are times that I am more obedient than others but I am no more or less holy because my holiness comes not from within (my own deeds) but without (the gift of God). He's given me much more than forgiveness, He has given me His life and His righteousness.

D

dohzman Dec 19, 2009

Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "(21) What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

L

Leo_Grace Dec 19, 2009

dohzman wrote:
Act 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "(21) What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

This has to do with old testament prohibitions (dealing with gentiles, unclean food, etc.) that were recast by Jesus' teachings. I don't think it applies to the question in this thread, for there are many passages in the Bible that warn us to be humble and to not forget what we are without God's grace.

sermonindex Dec 19, 2009

The word holiness in the OT is almost always ...
ko-desh meaning.......ko'-desh
From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

Given the context of the OT scriptures that employs this word, its almost always a sacred place or thing, or a sanctuary. In Fact in Psalm 77:13 we say the word sactuary used instead of holiness. Also in Eze 28:22 we see a slightly different usage in kaw-dash, meaning to be purified. Which leads to the NT word in the Greek for Holiness of which there are a few ....
hos-ee-ot-ace, has-ee-o-soo-nay. If one could find a common theme it would be purifier, sacredness and state.

If holiness is a state, or a place or a purifying force, if sacredness is a key word in definition, then what can all that mean?

Act 3:12 And seeing this, Peter answered the people, Men, Israelites, why do you marvel at this? Or why do you stare at us, as though we had made this man to walk by our own power or holiness?

In and of ourselves we can do nothing. Its only as we walk in the presence of God that anything can be achieved, by the power of His Holy Spirit who brings us into communion with Him.

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Act 3:20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you,
Act 3:21 whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began.

Only as we walk in the presence of the Lord can we move in the kind of faith that was here demonstrated. As we walk in His presence, then Holiness is a "state, a place a thing." " Where was the prophet purified by fire? In the throne-room of God, in the presence of God. We are purified by the blood of Jesus, we are made righteous in His sight, we are justified because of Him and this also includes our sanctification. Its not our holiness that counts, it His. Our efforts to come into that place, that sanctuary, that temple, that holy of Holy's all failed miserably. We had no access into the Holy of Holy's but the Lord reconciled us to the Father and made us to sit down in heavenly places.

We are constantly told to "come to me." Jesus says to His church "I stand at the door and knock." Now we have to get up and answer the knocking and open the door if we are to walk more intimately with Him.

If anyone wants to try and establish their own holiness, their own righteousness as a means to being more intimate with the Lord, then that is a fools errend. It has been established for us.

So, after all that, I guess the answer to the question is no, I am not Holy but He is and its His that counts not mine and I have access to this, glory to God. My access comes by looking unto Jesus, the author and the finisher of my faith. In order to deal with my sin I have to lift up my eyes and look unto Him, not look at my sin. With a humble and a contrite heart the saint can come before the Lord. No longer to cry out "Oh wretched man that I am," but to hea these beautiful words....."Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." If you are "in," Christ Jesus and He in you, there is no more condemnation. To walk in the Spirit (and remember we took the Scripture from Acts 3, they had just been endued with power from on high) is to walk in His Holiness.........Frank

J

jimp Dec 19, 2009

hi, i am most certainly holy...as the ground was holy...holiness is the presence of God...Helives within me.jimp

sermonindex Dec 19, 2009

Hi all,

I am holy because I have agreed with God's call on my life, to be set apart unto Him. I was/am redeemed (bought back from Satan and sin) by His blood and sacrifice (death), and He is now restoring my soul.

trxx said

The problem that I see is that we would even ascribe a scale to holiness. We either are holy or we are not holy. ~~[b]~~I do not believe that there are degrees of holiness.[/b]

I agree that theoretically, there are no degrees of holiness, if - as the vessels in the temple - it is a state of set-apartness unto God. But, there is no doubt that those who make a conscious effort to walk in the Spirit (as Frank said), and to walk in the light as He is in the light (as John said 1:1:7), that the blood of Jesus Christ continuously cleanse us from all sin, ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~may[/b][/i] - in the sight of man, or amongst ourselves - appear to others, to be 'more' holy. I would suggest that this perception is an effect of the 'holier' person being focused (gazing) on the Lord, and being changed from one degree of glory to the next. (2 Cor 3:18)

Oswald Chambers has something to say about the way it feels to us, to be faced many times a day, with ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~choosing[/i][/b] to be faithful to God's call to be set apart unto Him.

~~[b]~~CONTINUOUS CONVERSION [/b]

~~[i]~~"Except ye be converted, and become as little children. . . ." Matthew 18:3[/i]

These words of Our Lord are true of our initial conversion, but we have to be continuously converted all the days of our lives, continually to turn to God as children. If we trust to our wits instead of to God, we produce consequences for which God will hold us responsible. Immediately our bodies are brought into new conditions by the providence of God, we have to see that our natural life obeys the dictates of the Spirit of God. Because we have done it once is no proof that we shall do it again. The relation of the natural to the spiritual is one of continuous conversion, and it is the one thing we object to. In every setting in which we are put, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered, but we have to "put on the new man." God holds us responsible every time we refuse to convert ourselves, our reason for refusing is wilful obstinacy. Our natural life must not rule, God must rule in us.

The hindrance in our spiritual life is that we will not be continually converted, there are wadges of obstinacy where our pride spits at the throne of God and says - I won't. We deify independence and wilfulness and call them by the wrong name. What God looks on as obstinate weakness, we call strength. There are whole tracts of our lives which have not yet been brought into subjection, and it can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.

~~[i]~~from My Utmost for His Highest ~ December 28th[/i]

trxx said

We are holy because it is a gift of God. We are not holy in and of ourselves plain and simple.

I am not sure we can hold on to our holiness, or even perceive it. According to Oswald Chambers, the moment we think we are anything, we have lost it by that very act of attributing it to ourselves. (eg humble)

Therefore, with regard to my first sentence in this post, I declare myself 'holy' by faith - by the same faith by which I believe I am justified right this moment as I write; by the faith of the Son of God, who purchased me for His own possession.

Was this a gift? Yes, in the sense that He chose to offer Himself for me, and I have received His offer with all its implications.

But, I think there is a danger in referring to 'holiness' as a gift, as if it is something I now hold to myself, as I would a parcel. (I think the same thing applies to the spiritual gifts. They should more be seen as outworkings of His life through the believer (graces of that life), than ~~[i]~~possessions[/i] in the 'ownership' of the believer.)

Iow, I do not 'own' my holiness. It is entirely that ~~[u]~~I am owned by God[/u], which 'makes' me 'holy'. How I co-operate with God in this, is what others see of 'holiness' in me.

And of course, God sees my heart the whole time, and whether I am objecting to the meaning (outworking against my flesh and its desire to sin) of His call simply to love Him more than anything else.

~~[i]~~Jesus calls us over the tumult
Of our life’s wild, restless, sea;
Day by day His sweet voice soundeth,
Saying, “Christian, follow Me!”

As of old Saint Andrew heard it
By the Galilean lake,
Turned from home and toil and kindred,
Leaving all for Jesus’ sake.

Jesus calls us from the worship
Of the vain world’s golden store,
From each idol that would keep us,
Saying, “Christian, love Me more!”

In our joys and in our sorrows,
Days of toil and hours of ease,
Still He calls, in cares and pleasures,
“Christian, love Me more than these!”

Jesus calls us! By Thy mercies,
Savior may we hear Thy call,
Give our hearts to Thine obedience,
Serve and love Thee best of all.

Cecil Alexander

Tunes: [/i]~~[url=http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/MP3-ComeRejoice-StAndrew-PipeLC-128-CAM.mp3]~~St Andrew (Thorne) [/url], ~~[url=http://members.toast.net/puritan/Hymns/AlleluiaLowe.mid]~~Allelujiah[/url]

(With the second tune, there is a fifth line to each verse: ~~[i]~~Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Amen![/i] May this be our singlehearted prayer.)

EDIT: This old thread which has helped inform my understanding, is short, and I think you'll also find it enlightening - ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9249&forum=34&18]~~Insant Sanctification[/url].

S

scotsbaker Dec 19, 2009

Jesus is, and in the measure that I allow Him to change me by His Spirit, His holiness will be mine.

See http://www.holiness.org.uk/ for many resources items on holiness.

T

trxx Dec 19, 2009

Alive-to-God wrote, "But, I think there is a danger in referring to 'holiness' as a gift, as if it is something I now hold to myself, as I would a parcel."

I think I agree with the thought behind what you say. I use the word gift because Scripture tells us that our righteousness is a gift.
Romans 5:15-17 "But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."
The important part of this for me lately has been to realize where our holiness comes from. Its not that I didn't know it but but that it has become much more profound in my life. It is a gift because it is given to me. Is it something that I own and may do with it as I please? Its given to me, its mine but its not mine if that is possible lest I mistreat it. But I don't know how far I might take that analogy either.

"I am not sure we can hold on to our holiness, or even perceive it. According to Oswald Chambers, the moment we think we are anything, we have lost it by that very act of attributing it to ourselves. (eg humble)" It sounds like Oswald is is saying much the same thing. Its important always to remember that our holiness comes never from ourselves but always through the merit of Jesus Christ.

On a bit of a side note, through looking at all of this lately I discovered what to me is related but exciting enough that it stands alone. Isaiah 62:11-12 says, "Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth, Say to the daughter of Zion, "Lo, your salvation comes; Behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him. And they will call them, "The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD"; And you will be called, "Sought out, a city not forsaken (NASB)." What I found most intriguing and exciting is that wherever we see the Old Testament word "salvation" it is the word "Yeshua." So the name of our Lord and Saviour is the same as the Hebrew word for salvation. In this particular verse I love to pronounce "Yeshua" for "salvation." It fits perfectly. He is our salvation (our righteousness or holiness).

But I would question the implications of "Jesus is, and in the measure that I allow Him to change me by His Spirit, His holiness will be mine." I may not rightly understand what scotsbaker is trying to illustrate but the whole point is that holiness is not given in measures but is complete in itself, in the gift of righteousness. He does not give me more holiness because I am more obedient. Holiness is complete or not at all. We either have received it or we are unregenerated. I will be no more holy tomorrow than I am today. I may in fact be more or less obedient but I am no less/more holy. That would suggest that holiness depends on me. It does not.