Post trib rapture and the sheep/goat judgment

I have been pondering some of the arguments out there for pre and post trib rapture events. I am personally not convinced one way or another on this issue just yet, I haven't really done any detailed study on this isssue.Having said that, perhaps a post trib adherent can help me clarify an apparent problem I have encountered in my limited studies on this topic. What I have heard from the post trib camp is that the rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to begin the millenial reign. All saints are caught up in the air with Him and then immediately return to earth with Him. Now Matthew 25 tells us that when Jesus makes this return after the tribulation the first thing he does is oversee the sheep and goat judgment. My question is, who are the sheep and where do they come from? If we accept this post trib rapture event then it seems they can't be saints because all the saints were caught up with Jesus as he returned. Perhaps I am missing something here, can someone help clarify this for me?In Christ,Ron

I don't have any answers but I have given this some thought and think it's an excellent question. I hope someone will be able to give us some insight here.

Here's one possibility........(not my own I hasten to add)....the sheep and goats are the nations (unregenerate) who are designated sheep or goats by the way they have treated the Jews (the brothers of Jesus) during the Great Tribulation. The sheep are welcomed into the Millennium, and the goats aren't. Just a thought - I'm not sure about that one myself so DON'T SHOUT AT ME!!!!! PLEASE!!!! :-P

First of all, it's a red herring to assume that the Great Tribulation will be seven years. You will be hard pressed to find good Scriptural exegesis for that. (Hint: it comes from a misinterpretation of Daniel 8.)Secondly, the "sheep" would have been rewarded for their treatment of the "brothers" of Jesus; any reading of either Matthew or John would show that the term "brothers" is a term specifically used to denote disciples of Jesus. Hope that helps. It is clear that "brothers" of Jesus are only those who do his will, so only his disciples can fit this category. It clearly does not refer to the Jews, but to Christians.

I personally stay away from eschatology (study of endtime prophecies and events in the bible) simply because... there are 10,000 different scriptures that can be interpreted and misinterpreted, and 10,000 different doctrines regarding the endtime, and every single person that spends long hours on their doctrine thinks they are right! I personally do not think our salvation depends on it, there are more useful studies. Plus I find that (at least within myself at one time) many of the people that study, do it just to find out how long they have left to have fun on the earth or what not. I personally am very wary of doctrines named by words that to not appear in the bible. Call me crazy (and this is a subject for another forum), but I don't believe in "trinity", for it's not in the bible. Neither is "rapture" which means of course, "catching away". There is such a *HUGE* deal made about the rapture, and the word itself isn't found in the bible, although descriptions of different events that are found in the bible are called "the rapture". Does this mean that I don't believe in the rapture? I am undecided, and honestly don't care too much. Whatever happens will happen, and what I believe will happen won't change that. As far as the "sheep and goat" thing, I had always believed that the sheep were regarded as the just believers, and the goats were the unjust nonbelievers. This was just another way of describing the main judgements in Revelation. Those whom I fellowship with are, for the most part, pre-tribulation, and so this arguement may not apply (does it?). And for the post trib camp, there is a thought that there may be some saints, "tribulation saints" that will be alive throughout the tribulation, poor souls. Maybe they might be the sheep then? I don't think that nations will be judged as "which nations helped and which nations did not" help the jews. Our judgement depends on our relationship with God and what we do, rather than what nation we belong to :-pEither way, whatever way, I don't really care all that much. But I thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the mix. And for the record, although "tribulation" is in the bible, that also may have an exaggerated role in our minds in the endtime. Maybe 7 years, maybe not. Tribulation is just a word that means "tough times" to me, and Jesus HAS said "in that tribulation", which to me means there may be more than one "tough time". Go figure ;-)God bless :)-JW

So which of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit isn't God then?

As I said... that's another topic under the "scriptural debates" forum. But since you asked, I will turn around and ask you where in the Bible it meantions specifically "God the Son" or "God the Holy Ghost". Nowhere, it only says "God the Father". And it states repeatedly that "There is ONE God" as well as saying "God is ONE". If you really want, send me a private message or post again on the "Trinity" or "Hebrew Grammar" forums. I'm not in this forum to debate that.Thanks,JW

I don't want to debate it either........YOU brought it up!If you're not in this forum to debate that perhaps you shouldn't provoke such debate by your "throw away" comments.You cannot lump the Divinity of Jesus with the Rapture as equally debatable issues. They just don't sit together.The building won't stand without the Cornerstone in it's correct place.The Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is a fundamental Christian doctrine.Who but God can forgive sins?Who but God can convict of sin?You are gravely mistaken.

I hate to get ugly, but this thread is for debate about the endtime/post-trib/pre-trib/whatever subject, *NOT* about the a statement I made in passing about false teachings of the catholic church which was started in the 300's and passed down to the "daughter works" in protestantism spawned by Rome.Jesus is indeed God... INSIDE the Flesh. God never died. The image of the invisible God, the manifestation of God, the flesh of God, died. God himself never did. That's what Jesus is. The son of God. He was "God with us". God inside us. God walking around inside of a human. Because Jesus was, in fact, completely Human, with the spirit of God instead of a human spirit.Please if you want to continue this, private message me. I was making a passing statement and had no intention of starting another debate on this subject outside of those already started.

mmmmmmm :-(

Having said that, perhaps a post trib adherent can help me clarify an apparent problem I have encountered in my limited studies on this topic. What I have heard from the post trib camp is that the rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to begin the millenial reign. All saints are caught up in the air with Him and then immediately return to earth with Him. I have the same problem.The debate about the rapture of the church is one that reminds me of the debate about the first time the messiah came. The O/T prophets didn't see the split between Jesus coming as the suffering servant and returning as the conquering king. Many times both would be prophesied in the same quotation. This happens many times in Isaiah.I think the same is happening with the final return of Jesus. Many are confusing the calling of the Church to the Bema seat judgement with the return of Christ to reign on earth. There are apparently two events that will happen in eschatological prophecy that wrap around the event known as the great tribulation.Here is my take on it. The Apostles and all the early Christians expected Jesus to return soon and eagerly awaited for His return. They expected and taught an earthly reign of Jesus established physically. He will reign from Israel restoring the kingdom and sit upon the throne of David. I don't see the events in A.D.70 bringing this about as amillenialists teach (especially since all early source documents say that Revalation wasn't written until around A.D.96).So here we are in modern times still waiting for Christ's return to establish his kingdom upon the earth that has already been established in the hearts of his followers. When Christ returns:1. He will return with his saints according to Jude.2. He will cast all who have the mark of the beast into hell.3. According to O/T prophecies, there will be peole who survive the tribulation without the mark(Revelation says only those with the testimony of Jesus will not take the mark so we have every reason to believe that these will be believers). 4. Also according to O/T and Revelation, these believers on the earth will be allowed to live out the rest of their mortal lives in the restored kingdom. (Isaiah says if a man dies when he's 100 during this time it will be said he died in his youth)So here is what I come think. Let's say that there is a post trib rapture, or even a mid trib rapture(happening when the two witnesses are called back to heaven). Knowing the heart of God, he is not going to leave *any* beievers behind. We will all be called. And knowing prophecy, the mark of the beast will be so extensive throught the earth, that only those who have refused it because of their belief in Christ, only believers will be without the mark. This creates a problem with post and mid tribers and with prophecy. If the rapture happens during this time, only people with the mark will be left leaving no mortals behind who can be saved.When Jesus returns, he must cast everybody into hell, leaving only those who now have put off the old nature and put on new immortal bodies. These will not be the ones according to Revelation who will fall to the devils last temptaion. Prophecies will begin to fail. The mid and post triber is under a heavy burden of proof to show that there will be people without the mark when Jesus returns. Now let's look at the pre trib rapture. Suddenly, millions of people have disappeared from the earth. I beg to differ with those who call this escapest mentality (but that's another subject) Now the world is left with absolutely no testimony of Jesus Christ (except for creation itself of course). Two witnesses appear in Jerusalem and start preaching the gospel. Under immense persecution a revival starts that coincides with the judgements that are falling on the earth. Now the Lord returns with his saints to execute judgement on the ungodly and establish his throne on the earth. There are now believers who have believed (though probably few in number). They can now inhabit the kingdom for a thousand years. There will now be a people who can be tempted when satan is released for a short while. There will be people here to build that final earthly temple....etc.Well, that's it in a nutshell (ok, it's a big nutshell) why I believe in the pre trib rapture.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Hulsey,Can you explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that "the Apostles and all the early Christians expected Jesus to return soon and eagerly waited for his return"? Also, how do you define "soon"? I am assuming by your wording that you are defining it as within the lifetime of these early Christians. How have you come to this conclusion?Secondly, when Antichrist comes, where will he set himself up?

I'm not either a post- nor a pre-trip anymore! I dont even belive in the seven years, now. They happened when jesus said they would...in that generation! I used to belive that stuff, based on all the teachers i had heard, but because of all the scriptures that dont fit in to it, like the one you mention, i had to study it for my self.I now am sure that the seven years (3.5 +3.5) was fulfilled during jesus ministry on earth, and during the 3.5 year war that nero waged against jerusalem. It never was a gap between the 69 and 70th year. Also this perfectly points out exatly what year the "the annointed" (mashia, messiah in the hebrew) would stand forth, so it is maybe the most exact prophecy about Jesus ever, and it drivesd the rabbines/jews crazy to think about. Wish i had space and time tp write about those daniel propecies some more.I found that there are far more prophecies and scriptures fulfilled in this simple view than the pre/post tribulation-view.The rapture is a "gathering of the saints" according to paul, in the only scripture that actually uses the word "rapture" (harpazo, same word used about philips transportation in acts 8). It will happen when jesus returnes to judge living and dead and rule this old world. We will be "snatched away" , not neccecarly "up", certainly not up in to heaven, cause it specifically sais "air". And it will happen when Jesus returns with all his holy (why would they come down here, just to be caught up in heaven the next moment?). No (IMHO), we will just be gathered, all the saints from all over the earth to where ever HE is (Jerusalem i guess), and the the tribunal rewarding of the saints will happen. It will be the greatest day in history after the cross.

Are u sure there will be an antichirst? The only two places he is mantioned in the bible is in Johns letter, and it talks about the SPIRIT og antichrist and that it is already here, and that therefor there was already MANY antichrists? Why wait for another? Im sure there will be plenty more of them to come, but they cant stop the work of God anyways.

"The world is not waiting for a new definition of the Gospel, but for a new demonstration of the power of the Gospel. In these days of acute political helplessness, moral lawlessness, and spiritual helplessness, where are the men not of doctrine, but of faith? No faith is required to curse the darkness or give staggering statistical evidence that the dikes are down and a tidal wave of hellish impurity has submerged this generation. Doctrine? -we have enough and to spare, while a sick, sad, sin-sodden, sex-soaked world perishes with hunger.”Revival in a boneyardWhy Revival TarriesLeonard RavenhillWaiting on Him; this is Church alive. Expecting Him to arrive in due time; this is Church functional. Allowing Him to work according to eternal purposes; this is Church spiritual.Opening hearts for Him by prayer; this is Church militant.Welcoming Him; this is Church worshipping.Preparing for His coming; this is Church maturing.Walking in this hope; this is Church eager for purity.Lars W.

There is actually no reason to belive that the apocalypse was written in ad 69 or whatever. He wrote it when cesar nero threw him to the ilse of pathmos and it was in 66 i think, also peter an paul was martyred during this time.Remember that his book was to describe "What is soon to happen". Im not saying that everthing in it is fulfilled by ad70, but a lot. Also a bunch of matt 24 is fulfilled in the same period. It just is, if we belive it or not. Many of the scriptures like "stone will not be upon stone..." etc, was literally fulfilled back then. No reason to argue about it, but some say it has a double fulfillment. That may be, but it isn't VERY clear from the bible.Hulsey wrote:Having said that, perhaps a post trib adherent can help me clarify an apparent problem I have encountered in my limited studies on this topic. What I have heard from the post trib camp is that the rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to begin the millenial reign. All saints are caught up in the air with Him and then immediately return to earth with Him. I have the same problem.The debate about the rapture of the church is one that reminds me of the debate about the first time the messiah came. The O/T prophets didn't see the split between Jesus coming as the suffering servant and returning as the conquering king. Many times both would be prophesied in the same quotation. This happens many times in Isaiah.I think the same is happening with the final return of Jesus. Many are confusing the calling of the Church to the Bema seat judgement with the return of Christ to reign on earth. There are apparently two events that will happen in eschatological prophecy that wrap around the event known as the great tribulation.Here is my take on it. The Apostles and all the early Christians expected Jesus to return soon and eagerly awaited for His return. They expected and taught an earthly reign of Jesus established physically. He will reign from Israel restoring the kingdom and sit upon the throne of David. I don't see the events in A.D.70 bringing this about as amillenialists teach (especially since all early source documents say that Revalation wasn't written until around A.D.96).So here we are in modern times still waiting for Christ's return to establish his kingdom upon the earth that has already been established in the hearts of his followers. When Christ returns:1. He will return with his saints according to Jude.2. He will cast all who have the mark of the beast into hell.3. According to O/T prophecies, there will be peole who survive the tribulation without the mark(Revelation says only those with the testimony of Jesus will not take the mark so we have every reason to believe that these will be believers). 4. Also according to O/T and Revelation, these believers on the earth will be allowed to live out the rest of their mortal lives in the restored kingdom. (Isaiah says if a man dies when he's 100 during this time it will be said he died in his youth)So here is what I come think. Let's say that there is a post trib rapture, or even a mid trib rapture(happening when the two witnesses are called back to heaven). Knowing the heart of God, he is not going to leave *any* beievers behind. We will all be called. And knowing prophecy, the mark of the beast will be so extensive throught the earth, that only those who have refused it because of their belief in Christ, only believers will be without the mark. This creates a problem with post and mid tribers and with prophecy. If the rapture happens during this time, only people with the mark will be left leaving no mortals behind who can be saved.When Jesus returns, he must cast everybody into hell, leaving only those who now have put off the old nature and put on new immortal bodies. These will not be the ones according to Revelation who will fall to the devils last temptaion. Prophecies will begin to fail. The mid and post triber is under a heavy burden of proof to show that there will be people without the mark when Jesus returns. Now let's look at the pre trib rapture. Suddenly, millions of people have disappeared from the earth. I beg to differ with those who call this escapest mentality (but that's another subject) Now the world is left with absolutely no testimony of Jesus Christ (except for creation itself of course). Two witnesses appear in Jerusalem and start preaching the gospel. Under immense persecution a revival starts that coincides with the judgements that are falling on the earth. Now the Lord returns with his saints to execute judgement on the ungodly and establish his throne on the earth. There are now believers who have believed (though probably few in number). They can now inhabit the kingdom for a thousand years. There will now be a people who can be tempted when satan is released for a short while. There will be people here to build that final earthly temple....etc.Well, that's it in a nutshell (ok, it's a big nutshell) why I believe in the pre trib rapture.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

quote:"There is actually no reason to belive that the apocalypse was written in ad 69 or whatever. He wrote it when cesar nero threw him to the ilse of pathmos"Reply: Actually there is every reason to believe in the A.D.96 dating of Revelation. The most reliable sources, one of the apostle John's disciples say that John wrote the Revelation during the reign of Dometian(I'll double check this if it's the wrong name I'll come back and edit it with the correct name. It could be Diocletion but I'm mixing the names up right now). Whichever name it is, the one the disciple names that was reigning at the time certainly wasn't Nero. And He states that it is at the end of this emporer's reign wich would put the writing of The Revelation around A.D. 96. Nero's persecution of the Christians was not an empire wide persecution, but localized to Rome after the burning of Rome in which he blamed the Christians (The Story Of Christianity; a christian history book used in many Bible Colleges) It wasn't until around A.D.100 when the Jews removed Christians from the synagogue lists that the Christian sect became an illegal religion. Judaism was considered a legal religion in the Roman empire thanks to good relations of the Herod's with Rome. Christianity was considered apart of Judaism until around A.D. 100.In Christ,Jeremy HulseyP.S. Jason,That is a good question. Give me the weekend to do some research and I'll have a reply as soon as possible.

Jason wrote:Hulsey,Can you explain to me how you have come to the conclusion that "the Apostles and all the early Christians expected Jesus to return soon and eagerly waited for his return"? Also, how do you define "soon"? I am assuming by your wording that you are defining it as within the lifetime of these early Christians. How have you come to this conclusion?Secondly, when Antichrist comes, where will he set himself up?Jason,Brother, I must say that I am not prepared to be able to give an appropriate answer. (Oh, to be back at my school and in that wonderful library) They are opinions that I have developed from the writings I have read from there. Being unable to give proper documentation, then they are only my opinions.I hope you did not think that I meant that there was some sort of prophetic spirit that was predicting the soon return of the Lord, as in their lifetime. They were left with no certain account of when our precious Lord would return, as we are left with no certain account as to the time. This, however, did not dampen the eagerness with which they awaited the King of glory. We are only given the certainty of His return; may our cry be Maranatha, even so come quickly Lord Jesus.So by soon I meant immenant(I hope I spelled that right :-D ). Where will the anti-christ be set up in power? Beats me. I know that the O/T said something about the Assyrian. I know that Daniel prophecied about Antiochus Epephenes IV. He set an image up in the Temple, this was definately a type that could have been considered the anti-type if our Lord would not have repeated the same prophecy.Your humble servant,In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey