How Sovereign is God in Redemption?

Fact: We are commanded to preach the gospel to all nations.

Salvation is a gift, and not only salvation, but the composite parts are also a gift. For we are told faith is a gift in Ephesians 1.

Question: How much ought we to rely on the sovereignty of God in the preaching of the gospel?

Example: You go out and preach the gospel, there is no move of God... Do you give up on that group of people and move on to a new group? Or do you stay until God saves? Or is it a case by case situational thing?

I firmly believe 100% in the sovereignty of God in the work of salvation in a persons life, but I also believe 100% in our responsibility to share salvation. I think the confusion comes when we misunderstand the parable of the sower. We are told to cast the seed, we are not told to make the DNA of the seed to replicate through mitosis, nor are we commanded to develop chloroplasts in the leaves of the seed as it grows and produces chlorophyll. Neither are we to be the light that causes this chlorophyll to generate the food necessary for the plant to live. We do two things, plant seeds and water seeds. For us, the trust must be absolute that God is going to do all the work. Being born again is the analogy Jesus used to explain the new life, when my child was born I marveled at her new life, but I was also keenly aware of how little I had to do with how she became a human being.

I think often times today, people turn the parable of the sower upside down, and inside out. Instead of casting a seed that we should inherently trust God to bring to life, we cast fruit plucked from a tree that already grew, or we cut off a branch from a tree, and cast that into the ground. What I mean by this is that we offer people the "Fruit" or benefits of Christianity, and in so doing we have danced around the burning bush. We share the peripheral issues but have not cast the seed. For the Gospel is the power of GOD unto salvation. We must trust entirely and preach entirely the true and simple gospel.

I often pray that God would help me to know the gospel better and better all the time for it is so easy to think that I am sharing the gospel and casting a seed, when really I have cast something else altogether.

I can no more manipulate a seed into life than I can raise someone from the dead. This is a family business that the trinity has perfected, and I think they have a monopoly on it.

Your responsibility to any group of people is to cast the seed, you may reap thirty fold, fifty fold or maybe even a hundred fold, but I tell you for sure, if you are walking in the Spirit, and your preaching is a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, and the Spirit bears witness to your life in that you are not living in sin and quenching the Spirit in so doing, there is a good chance that you will be watering and casting seed when you share the gospel. Let God do the mitosis, and photosynthesis, turn carbon dioxide to oxygen. Only he brings people into the new birth through the power of the Spirit.

There was a book that J.I. Packer wrote called "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God," that explained the balance between these two dynamics very well. I was not re-hashing what he wrote, but it is a book I would recommend on the topic. And you do not have to be reformed to understand and agree with his points at all. It is only a short 125 pager and he deals well with the balance.

I think you need to take each group or individual on a case by case, lead by the Spirit basis. Paul eventually washed his hands of the Jews, but he preached to them first always, Philip was whisked away from the Eunich, Paul was forbidden to preach in Asia. The Spirit leads, and I think we need to trust him with great faith to lead us in the sharing of the Gospel. Which starts every morning by taking advantage of His new mercies and walking in His Spirit.

Sorry for the long reply...kindof.

Who preaches to groups? I always thought that if God called you, He would bring the ones He wanted to you.

Even though the disciples and Paul moved around preaching the gospel, those who came to hear them were moved on by God.

If we have that seed of faith, how can we give up on a "group of people" if God is the one who moved them to hear you?

Anyway, as to your last statement: "[i] You go out and preach the gospel, there is no move of God... [/i]"

Have you asked God this question? I'm sure He'd be happy to tell anyone why He didn't move or couldn't move among the people!

God bless you!

God has given me the privilege to preach to a group of youth.

Not a 'George Whitefield' calling in the ministry, but an immense responsibility nonetheless.

I want to be sure that I am being faithful in proclaiming the Word of God; that I am not preaching my own opinions / thoughts, contrasted to the proper exposition of the Word anointed by the Spirit.

My question comes in the form that I know quite a bit about the kids to whom I preach, and there has yet to be any recognizable sign of true conversion.

I end up weeping over them every week, primarily in recognition of my own helplessness in turning them to God, and seeing their blindness and deadness to the Gospel.

Preaching is such utter dependence upon God, for Him to move souls into His kingdom for His own glory...

So I am at odds with myself. Am I wanting to see these kids come to God for humanism's sake, because I don't want them going to hell?

Or am I more zealous for the glory of God, even if they must go to hell to display the glory of God to a fuller extent?

Is it wrong to want people saved, even if it were to go against the future revelation of the glory of God in eternity?

Anguish,

Your group is like my group, except my group is inmates! The trouble that we have is that 99% of them believe that they are saved because of one prayer they prayed when they were young and personally, I think that makes it twice as difficult to reach someone because while you’re talking, they think you CAN'T be talking to them since they are saved, sanctified and heaven bound!!

Anguish wrote, “[i]Preaching is such utter dependence upon God, for Him to move souls into His kingdom for His own glory...[/i]”

In another thread Miccah shared wonderfully with you what walking in the Spirit was, truly this is where it comes in handy to know what walking in the Spirit is - it is total dependence upon God!!

Anguish wrote, “[i]So I am at odds with myself. Am I wanting to see these kids come to God for humanism's sake, because I don't want them going to hell[/i]?”

Humanism doesn’t want anyone going to heaven! If you have this desire, it is God-given, believe it!

Anguish wrote, “[i]Or am I more zealous for the glory of God, even if they must go to hell to display the glory of God to a fuller extent[/i]?”

How would anyone going to hell be “for His glory?” I hope I won’t offend you by asking where in the bible are the verses to support the statement that you made?

[i]For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them[/i]. Luke 9:56

Anguish wrote, “[i]Is it wrong to want people saved, even if it were to go against the future revelation of the glory of God in eternity[/i]?”

Where are you getting this stuff?! I thought you said you were not of any denomination because this reeks of denominational belief! I hope I didn’t offend but where are the scriptures in the bible to support this statement as well?

Anguish, all each one of us can do is “feed His sheep” and trust that His word will not return void! 1 Timothy 2.3-4, 5-6

I hope this helped a little bit... prayer will help you understand a lot too! PS: Don't forget to listen to that sermon!!

God bless you Anguish!

Greetings Lysa

The trouble that we have is that 99% of them believe that they are saved because of one prayer they prayed when they were young and personally, I think that makes it twice as difficult to reach someone because while you’re talking, they think you CAN'T be talking to them since they are saved, sanctified and heaven bound!!

I have had the same troubles with trying to share with family and friends. They to think because of a prayer said at one time that they are fine. With some it would almost be better if they had no previous knowledge or understanding of Jesus because at least then there would not be this hurdle of deception to get over concerning a one time prayer.

God Bless
mj

I used to think that it was a handicap that I did not grow up in the church, but now I am beginning to see that in some ways it was a blessing.

This morning I was reading Matthew 12:

"(30) He that is not with me is against me; and [i]he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/i] (31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (33) [i]Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.[/i] (34) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (35) [i]A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.[/i] (36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (emphasis mine)

The enemy has built many strongholds amongst the people. It can be seen here that seed has been sown to either good or evil. There is not any neutral ground. God is sovereign in all things but this clearly says that we will be the product of that which we have been exposed to and that we will produce more of the same. It also says that it is by our words that we will be justified or condemned.

The trouble that we have is that 99% of them believe that they are saved because of one prayer they prayed when they were young and personally, I think that makes it twice as difficult to reach someone because while you’re talking, they think you CAN'T be talking to them since they are saved, sanctified and heaven bound!!

I have had the same troubles with trying to share with family and friends. They to think because of a prayer said at one time that they are fine. With some it would almost be better if they had no previous knowledge or understanding of Jesus because at least then there would not be this hurdle of deception to get over concerning a one time prayer.

“If I had my way, I would declare a moratorium on public preaching of ‘the plan of salvation’ in America for one to two years. Then I would call on everyone who has use of the airways and the pulpits to preach the holiness of God, the righteousness of God and the law of God, until sinners would cry out, ‘What must we do to be saved?’ Then I would take them off in a corner and whisper the gospel to them. Such drastic action is needed because we have gospel-hardened a generation of sinners by telling them how to be saved before they have any understanding why they need to be saved.”

-Paris Reidhead, Getting Evangelicals Saved

2 Timothy 4:3-5 (NKJV) 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Hmm.. in response to Lysa...

Ephesians 1...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

I do not adhere to any particular denomination, not to be confused with doctrine.

I believe in the doctrine of election. With the doctrine of election comes the doctrine of reprobation. If God chooses some, then He passes by others.

This all ties into the Limited Atonement... not to be used primarily for exclusion of hearers of the gospel, rather as assurance for those who believe.

If God really is sovereign in salvation, and sinners must be saved by the power of God, and salvation is a gift from God, to undeserving sinners... then this means salvation is through grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is not bestowed upon us because we use our free will in a manner in which we save ourselves by placing faith in Christ, for faith is also a gift from God.

I am not sure if you can follow my line of reason... but in summation it's this: God is sovereign, God chose those whom to save before the world was created, (See Revelation 17:8) meaning He chose to pass over others, or not to save them. God does everything for His own glory in Christ Jesus. Thus, even the passing over of unbelievers is for the glory of God; for it shall display the holiness and righteousness of God in judgment upon their sins in the eternal lake of fire.

Hell exists because creation spit in the face of God. The resulting judgment is the wrath of God to be spent out in eternity upon sinners for their great crime. Jesus was able to extinguish the wrath of God, because He is God. Sinners cannot extinguish the wrath of God, thus hell is eternal.

Well, that explains a lot but you should know that I don’t adhere to any denomination or any doctrine!

And it explains why you’re agonizing over wanting to preach to those young people and yet afraid they’ve not been chosen for heaven.

God bless you!

Ecclesiastes 1:18

18 For in much wisdom is much vexation,
and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.

I wish I could be as other believers who do not stress over finer points of doctrine...

But my mind simply cannot function in that manner.

I remember Ravi Zacharias talking about his mother, and how she asked him why he thought of such things (philosophical questions regarding God); and that those questions never entered her mind.

These questions that arise often discourage me from reading more of / into the Word; simply because I know that I will have more questions than answers after each reading session. And if enough time passes I fall into passivity, telling myself that I will never understand everything about God, so relax and stop trying so hard.