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question about tithing and fellowship with the ungodly

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

i had a few questions. I myself have wondered about tithing, i myself is in debt and only makes a small amount of money, i have my wife, should i still give what i can. I have a very godly friend who does not go to any particular church because of the lack of the spirit and other reasons but he has told me that he believes we should still believes in tithing and he tells me it is biblical, he also has told me that the Lord has always supplied him in everyway even though at first it was hard to tithe for him with his wife pressuring him and just the doubts at first, but he went ahead and still did it and the Lord has supplied him with all his needs. He also say that their should be our regular tithe in which goes to the spreading of the gospel either for ministries or missionaries or a local church and then their is a free will offering which you give out of your own will. What is your opinion on this in also relating to the 50 things that make you a pharisee. Also my other question was when do we draw the line as christians in being around ungodly people, i saw the one that spoke on being around unbelievers like Jesus, i agree that greeting them and being generous and helping them with their needs is great thing to do but do you think that we can sit at tables with people who openly mock God and who just speak about things that our so sinful, i have found myself having to separate, when an ungodly moving was being watched at my wifes parents house this past week, i went upstairs and separated completely, is not this go according to psalm 1 and other scriptures? This is all relating to what i read in what Greg posted, i would like it clarified to me if that be possible.

H
Heydave Jan 5, 2010

Hi bible4life.

I know a lot of believers think tithing is right, but I believe it is not 'law' for the New Covenant believer. No where do you see tithing for believers in the NT. It is now giving with a thankful and joyful heart. It seems strange to me that the only OT law people want to keep in the church is tithing. Could it be because it pays the salary of the 'proffesional' clergy!
Those who hold to tithing try and convince us that it was pre-law using Hebrews 7:9-10 about Melchizedek, but this is not there to teach us tithing, but about Jesus' preisthood being greater than the Levitical.

We should be giving freely (not under compulsion) to those in need and missions as the Lord puts it on our heart. If we do not have much money, we should make it our first aim to do all we can to provide for our families and not be a burden on others and then as we get more to bless others with our surplus.

Regarding mixing with unbelievers, we need wisdom. I think Zac Poonen's point is that we should not seperate ourselves in a superior way thinking we are 'holier than thou'. But the bible clearly teaches us:

Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
Psalm 1:1

God Bless you.

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

Good answer, Bible4life! I agree.

Those who want to hold to the OT law of the tithe must also keep the rest of the law. We can not pick and choose.

Either the LAW was fulfilled in Christ, or it wasn't. It was not partially fulfilled.

Krispy

R
rookie Jan 5, 2010

Either the LAW was fulfilled in Christ, or it wasn't. It was not partially fulfilled.

Paul writes this concerning the law.

......................................................
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
.......................................................

The law of God is holy and just. What must be clear is that through the leading of the Spirit we who obey will fulfill the law of God. If we disobey the Spirit, we are still in bondage to the law of sin and death. The law of God is given so that we all know that we fall short of the glory of God. It is by the power of Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to circumsize our hearts in order that we might fulfill the law of God.

..........................................................
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
.........................................................

Christ will not lead us in the power of the Holy Spirit to disregard what God has set forth in the Law and the Prophets. Tithing is a precept which God established. If you search carefully you will find that tithe is meant for the feeding of those who care for the flock, orphans, widows, and those who are in need. The tithe is also used to finance the feasts amongst the fellowship.

In Christ
Jeff

H
Heydave Jan 5, 2010

The law of God is holy and just. What must be clear is that through the leading of the Spirit we who obey will fulfill the law of God. If we disobey the Spirit, we are still in bondage to the law of sin and death. The law of God is given so that we all know that we fall short of the glory of God. It is by the power of Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to circumsize our hearts in order that we might fulfill the law of God.

So which other laws that God gave to Israel are you going to keep?
Tithing is a precept which God established.

Absolutely it is a PRINCIPLE. So keep the priciple, which is to give out of a cherful heart motivated by love. Love FULFILS the law. But do not tithe because you think it is a law!

Do we keep the feasts? No. Why? Because they are fulfilled in Christ. He is our passover etc.

With love.

R
rookie Jan 5, 2010

Absolutely it is a PRINCIPLE.

I would not say that it is "a principle" but more accurately a precept according to Scripture. If you read Dueteronomy 14 and 15 one will find God's financial system. Look closely to where God declares the tithe should be spent. The tithe is to spent for specific purposes. In the NT, if you search the Scripture, one will find that we are still to tithe for these specific purposes.

So keep the priciple, which is to give out of a cherful heart motivated by love. Love FULFILS the law. But do not tithe because you think it is a law!

The church at Penetcost shared because of what the Spirit of God accomplished in their hearts. Many today will look to that generation and say that their economic system failed. But of course we know differently.

In Christ
Jeff

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

If the NT believer was to tithe... the NT would not absolutely silent on it. The only place where tithing is mentioned in the NT was during Jesus' ministry BEFORE He died and rose again. The Law was not fulfilled yet.

Once He accomplished His work of redemption... there is never again a mention of tithing, along with many other things. Things we would never consider to be commands for us now. But some want to hold onto tithing.

We have not tithed in almost 10 years. We give... joyfully. Sometimes we give 10%... sometimes less... sometimes more. Depends on what the Holy Spirit tells us to do.

And tithe keepers always say that they have never heard testimonies from those who do not "tithe" about God blessing. Thats a lie... I can not begin to tell you of all the amazing ways God has provided for my family financially. Especially in this last year, God has increased my faith 100 fold.

So take all this "will a man rob God?" and "God will get His 10% one way or another" junk about tithing and put it where it belongs. It's men misusing scripture to manipulate other people.

It hasn't proven to be the case in my life... and the lives of many others.

It's called freedom! Freedom from trying to do things out of compulsion, and freedom to listen and do what the Holy Spirit wants.

:-)

Krispy

H
Heydave Jan 5, 2010

I'm with Krispy on this one.

rookie wrote:

In the NT, if you search the Scripture, one will find that we are still to tithe for these specific purposes.

Where is this in the NT applying to believers post pentecost?

The church at Penetcost shared because of what the Spirit of God accomplished in their hearts. Many today will look to that generation and say that their economic system failed. But of course we know differently.

I don't understand what you are saying here??

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

if we don't tithe how will the gospel be spread through, only when our hearts free willingly do it. I think that placing our faith that God will take care of us even when things get hard is better to do. I would say that Christ said the law was established when he came, that all those old testament laws and commands would be written our heart after being born again, that we would want to perform them and we should. I heard christians tell me that it is o.k to have tatoos today because we our no longer under the law, where does it say that the new testament writers throughout the law and obeying, but no it was established in their inward beings to obey it in love. You our not saved by works or the law but it is not something that is done away with, you can't just break it now because we our in grace, we should want to follow God.

A
augustin1972 Jan 5, 2010

Just as paying the tithe was emphasised under the old covenant, presenting our bodies to God is what is emphasised in the new covenant. Tithing was meant to be a type, just like the Passover lamb and the Sabbath day. The lamb was a type of Christ, and the Sabbath was a type of the inward rest that Christ gives us. These Old Testament rituals were all shadows of what was finally fulfilled in Christ (as Colossians 2:16,17 makes crystal clear).

Concerning tithing, God had said, "The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to put God first in your lives" (Deut.14:23-Living Bible). Under the old covenant, they offered their tithes to prove that God was first in their lives. In the new covenant, we present our bodies to God and thus prove that He is first in our lives.

What does it mean to offer our bodies? It means giving our eyes to God so that we never use them for ourselves again. Is that easier or is it easier to give 10% of your income to God? You know that it is far easier to give 10% of our income each month to God than to keep our eyes pure each day of that month. That is why preachers teach tithing more than keeping our eyes pure. Many pastors are lovers of money and they want their congregation to tithe so that they can become rich from those tithes. Since there is no justification at all for tithing in the new covenant, they use this verse in Malachi to frighten ignorant believers into paying their tithes every month.

Then how much money should we to give for God's work? Only what we can give cheerfully – for God does not love those who give money under pressure, or who give in order to get something from Him (See 2 Cor.9:8). First give your body to the Lord and then give whatever money you want to give cheerfully, but never as an obligation and certainly not out of fear. I hope this understanding of God's Word liberates you from false teaching.

Reference:http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/word_for_the_week.php?display=12_01&year=08

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

if we don't tithe how will the gospel be spread through, only when our hearts free willingly do it.

You don't think He can accomplish His will without us giving Him a hand?

... and I don't believe in tithing. BUT I do believe completely in giving. You missed my point.

But this whole idea that if we don't give a tithe (to the so-called "storehouse" aka church denomination) that God can not accomplish His will... that we hog-tie God... is humanistic at best, arrogant at worst.

God will accomplish His will. He allows us to participate in it.

In the church today... we want to accomplish our will. We allow God to participate in it.

God is not broke. He owns it all. And most churches do not spend the money they bring in on spreading the gospel. They use it to pay mammoth mortgage debts, build gyms, pay salaried pastors etc. The amount of money actually going to feed the poor, help elderly keep their heat on, support single moms, reach out with the gospel to the community and send missionaries to other parts of the world is but a miniscule fraction of most church budgets.

The money I give goes directly to help the poor, the hungry, the destitute and missions directly. After much prayer 10 years ago thats what the Holy Spirited instructed my sweet wife and I to do. And there is nothing in scripture that shows that we are in contradictions with the teachings of Jesus or the Apostles.

Krispy

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AbideinHim Jan 5, 2010

It is amazing to me how many churches there are that preach grace and practice law.

Mike

D
dab Jan 5, 2010

Whose money (or for that matter, time, resources, etc.) is it anyway? We tithe at our house, not because of Law, but because of Love. But let's certainly not stop at the tenth part - should not every cent belong to the Lord, and dispensed in ways to bring Him glory! As a pastor who receives no salary (we have employment through which the Lord provides for our physical needs), and who tithes - I never preach on tithing. You can get whole groups of people who might give 10% of income, and NEVER yield their hearts (legalism). On the other hand, the heart that is yielded to Christ seeks to give Him ALL!

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

Exactly...

Krispy

S
savannah Jan 5, 2010

The Lie of Tithing

Matt.23:23,24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint, and anise, and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ye ought to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides! which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Here we have the only occasion in the New Testament where Our Lord tells anyone to pay tithes. Those who teach that Christians must pay tithes refer to this verse as the proof that Our Lord Jesus Christ established the continuance of the Mosaic Law of Tithing for His Church. These modern TITHE-TEACHERS then go on to define TITHING for their congregations: 10% of everything you get.

These TITHE-TEACHERS are liars. The following facts will be established in this article.

The Mosaic Law of Tithing was never 10% of everything you get.

The Temple (now considered to be the church-house) did not receive all of the tithes that were given by the Israelites.

Tithing was neither commanded nor observed in the early church.

Tithing as a covenant of prosperity is effective only for those who seek to be justified by the Law.

Those who demand 10% of everything you get, are identified with the Scribes and the Pharisees, who were the historic enemies of Christ.

THE MOSAIC LAW OF TITHING WAS NEVER 10% OF EVERYTHING YOU GET

Deut.14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

The ancient Israelite calculated and paid his tithes only once per year, after the harvest. During the year, he bought and sold, exchanged his labour for other men's goods, and his goods for other men's labours; on none of this income did he pay any tithes. All year long, he and his family ate of the increase of the land and of the livestock. What he consumed in the course of the year was not recorded and added to his total harvest for the purpose of calculating his tithes. If he went fishing and caught ten fish in the middle of the year, he ate them all; he didn't save one of them to the end of the year in order to pay tithes on his fish. If he received some gold or silver in an inheritance, he was not required to pay tithes on his inheritance. It is simply ludicrous to propose that the Israelites were required to keep careful records of everything they got during the year, in order to make sure that they paid exactly ten percent of "everything they got" as a tithe.

The Israelite was not commanded to tithe on everything he obtained and used throughout the year, but only on his increase at the end of the year. The same thing is true with a business in that a certain amount of the income is consumed in maintaining the operation. It is notable how the modern tithe teachers expect the ordinary working man to fork over 10% of his every paycheck before his bills or his taxes are paid.

Tithes were only calculated and paid once per year in the Hebrew nation. All year long the farmer ate of the produce of his land, and used that produce to run the business of his farm. At the end of the harvest, tithes were calculated. The rich farmer who employed 20 herdsmen and 20 field hands did not get to take any more "deductions" than the poor farmer who had no employees. The yearly tithe was a simple calculation against the increase of the field at harvest time and the total herd of livestock on hand. This calculation did not include certain capital expenditures which effectually reduced the amount of the tithe. For example: a farmer has 70 sheep, and 30 sheep are born during the year, so he now has 100 sheep: but he needs an ox to plow his fields, so he trades 30 sheep for one ox. At the end of the year, he only pays tithes on 70 sheep, and he gets to keep his ox. The tithe of the livestock was always calculated against the total herd on hand, but only once per year, and there was an exception made for the poor: If a man started off with 10 sheep; 3 sheep were born in the course of the year, and he ate 4 adult sheep, he now has only nine sheep. If he still had only nine sheep at the end of the year, he was not required to give one of those sheep to the Lord as a tithe, even though he ate 4 sheep (Lev.27:32). The Mosaic law of tithing was never 10% of everything you get.

THE TEMPLE (now considered to be the church-house) DID NOT RECEIVE ALL OF THE TITHES THAT WERE GIVEN BY THE ISRAELITES.

Num.18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a TENTH part of the tithe. 28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes which ye receive of the children of Israel, and ye shall give thereof the Lord's heave offering unto Aaron the priest.

As a matter of fact, the priests of the Temple did not receive any tithes directly from the people at all. Only the Levites were entitled to receive tithes, and they paid a tithe of the tithe to the priests. Thus, the priests and the temple only received ONE TENTH of the tithes! The bulk of the support of the priests and the Temple came from the other offerings that were commanded under the law.

Deut.14:23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

Who is eating the tithe? Not the Levite, not the priest! In Israel, every family was expected to make it to Jerusalem once per year to visit the Temple. Some of their tithes were used to defray the expenses of the trip and may have been used to make the other offerings that were commanded separately under the Law. They were eating and drinking from their own tithes! This is further confirmed in the verses that follow:

Deut.14:24-26 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee;
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

The tithes were used to finance the family pilgrimage to Jerusalem once per year. Not only were they not paying tithes on "everything they got", but they were consuming some of the tithes themselves!

Deut.14:27-29 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shall lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat, and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Tithing in ancient Israel was income tax. Whatever they consumed in the course of the year did not have to be included in the calculation, and once every three years the ENTIRE tithe was given to the local Levites and the poor people in their own town. The Levites functioned as magistrates and school teachers in the villages in which they resided, so the tithe of the third year was given for the support of the local judiciary, and the funding of health, education, and welfare.

Only once every three years does it say that the ENTIRE tithe was given away, and in that case, NONE OF IT was brought to the Temple: but to the Levites and the poor people in their own towns. This is reiterated in Deut. 26:12 and Amos 4:4. It is very difficult to come up with an exact set of figures on who got how much of the tithes in the end; but one thing is sure: the Temple in Jerusalem was not collecting 10% of the total income of the people, and at least 1/3 of the tithes were given to support education and poor people in their own community. How anyone with an honest mind can take the Mosaic Law of Tithing and come up with, "10 cents out of every dollar that passes through your hands belongs to the local church", eludes me.

The doctrine of tithing, as it is taught and received by many Christians today, is a LIE: it is a fabrication by clergymen, a holdover from Romanism. It cannot be found in, or defended from the Law of Moses. Many have ignored and misrepresented the Bible, and lied to you about this.

TITHING WAS NEITHER COMMANDED NOR OBSERVED IN THE EARLY CHURCH

2Cor.9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The epistles are full of discussions about giving for the support of evangelists(sent ones or apostles)ers,orphans,true widows, and the poor: but no where do any of the Apostles ask for tithes or remind anyone to pay tithes. And, how can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity if he is obeying a LAW of tithing? How can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity, if he is convinced that he will be cursed with poverty if he fails to pay those tithes? Certainly, if the Apostle Paul thought he was authorized and obliged to demand tithes, he would have brought it up in 1 Corinthians chapter nine, where he asserts that he has a right to receive financial support! Why doesn't Paul remind them that they are obliged to pay those tithes, and that he has a right to receive those tithes?

As to the only time the New Testament records Our Lord telling anyone to pay tithes; if this was understood as a command to the Church,how come it is never reaffirmed by any of the Apostles?

Jesus, in Matthew 23:34, is addressing the Pharisees, not His own disciples, and He calls the concern about tithing a gnat. And yet, to the tithe collectors of Apostate Christendom, the gnat IS the camel.

Heb.7:1 For this Melchisidec, King of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;. . . 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

In Genesis chapter 14, Abraham goes out to rescue his nephew Lot, who along with many others has been kidnapped. The kidnappers had ransacked the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot lived, and were on their way back to their own cities. Abraham took 318 servants with him,and rescued Lot's family. He also took from the kidnappers all the loot they had obtained during their raids. After restoring the personal property of the residents of Sodom, he gave 10% of the loot to Melchisidec. This time, and this time only, are we ever told that Abraham pays tithes to anyone. There is no mention that he went home to round up 10% of the goods he had there. We are nowhere told that Abraham ever paid tithes on any of his income again.
The purpose of Hebrews chapter 7 is not to establish a law of tithing, but to show how Jesus Christ was foreshadowed in symbols and figures throughout the Old Testament.

The antiquity of a practice does not make it a law for The Church, for circumcision also pre-dates The Law of Moses (John 7:22, Gal.5:2).

Have you given up everything for Christ?

Is all you have His?

Is your life and lifestyle a living example of such?

TITHING AS A COVENANT OF PROSPERITY IS EFFECTIVE ONLY FOR THOSE WHO SEEK TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW.

Luke.17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The doctrine of tithing as it is taught in Apostate Christendom today teaches the promises of prosperity from the Old testament. The most popular verse that is used to substantiate the doctrine of tithing for prosperity is Malachi 3:10.

Mal.3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

This verse says that if you will faithfully pay your tithes that you will be prospered. The problem is, you are not allowed to pick and choose which Old Testament laws that you want to recieve and which you want to ignore. The same promises are attached to the other laws as well (Deut.12:28, 28:1- 6, Lev. 26:3-6).

As soon as you bind yourself to any promise that is connected with obedience to the Law, you have entered the covenant of the Law.

James.2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Yet these tithe teachers think to teach that you can ignore the whole law except to obey in one point! Tithing was part of the civil code that governed the nation of Israel. Only the Levites were allowed to collect the tithes. Tithing is not a part of the Ten Commandments, is no where commanded to The Church, and was neither taught nor practiced in Christendom until the the latter part of the 6th century.

Tithing is a part of God's covenant with the Jews only.

Jer.31:31,32 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...

Jesus said, The Law and the prophets were until John (Luke 16:16). In other words the covenant of The Law, as it was affirmed by the prophets, was ended at the appearing of John the Baptist.

Gal.5:3 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I know that tithe teachers and tithe payers will not SAY that they are justified by the law, and will insist that their faith is in Christ. However, the Apostle Paul has it that any attempt to be justified in any one point by the law is to fall from grace. Circumcision is the subject in Galatians chapter 5, but circumcision is only a part of that ONE LAW. The tithe payer attempts to justify himself in this one respect: that he has given to God "His cut", and so is justified by obedience to the law in this one matter. It's no different than those who insisted on being circumcised! They were not insisting on a wholesale return to the entire law of Moses; just this one point. The Apostle Paul says:

Gal.5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
And so it is with the tithe payer who justifies his actions on the basis of the Old Covenant. He has FALLEN FROM GRACE.

Hear this again:

Gal.3:19 For as many as are of the works of the law, are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You simply cannot sneak into the Old Testament and think to jerk one rule out of it to take advantage of. You are under the curse if you do, and you better perfectly perform the rest of the law as well, or you will end up cursed. This is no small matter to God.

Listen to the Apostle Paul:

Phil.3:8,9 Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but loss, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Whatever it is that you count as your righteousness, is that from which you take your confidence towards God. If you feel like you have settled the money question with God by paying tithes, you have come under the curse: you have your own righteousness. The true and obedient disciple of Our Lord Jesus Christ is careful to not let his left hand know what his right hand doeth in matters of giving. He also knows that except a man forsake ALL that he hath, he CANNOT be Christ's disciple (Luke 14:33). He is not in any way entitled to the selfish and personal use of the rest of his money just because he paid God His "cut".

In Luke 17:10,our Lord has dispelled any illusions that we may have about God owing us something because we did what we thought was our duty in some small and singular matter. Any notion that God owes us prosperity in exchange for tithing is utterly repudiated by one statement from the Apostle Paul:

Rom.11:35 Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

This statement not only condemns tithing for prosperity, but every other doctrine of "give to me and God will give to you" that the false prophets of Apostate Christendom love to propound.

Listen again to the Apostle Paul:

1Tim.6:7-10 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich, fall into temptation, and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil; which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jesus is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which was established on BETTER promises (Heb.8:6); but the Law of Moses promises long life, good health, prosperity, and power over all enemies to those who will obey it (Deut.28:1-13)

The promises of The New Testament include most of these things, but they are offered as a reward for FAITH, and THEY INCLUDE ETERNAL LIFE. The righteousness that imbues one with eternal life is of a different quality than that which was obtainable through some relative performance of The Law of Moses. Those who take their security from some relative performance of The Law of Moses have fallen from grace.

Listen to what the Lord says about King Saul:

1Sam.8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

And why is it that these people were willing to put up with all of King Saul's abuses?

1Sam.8:7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee (Samuel), but they have rejected Me (God) that I should not reign over them.

They will put up with their King Saul, and pay him his 10%, because it's easier to do that, then it is to grapple with these words of Jesus Christ: Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me (Luke 18:22).

Luke 18:11,12 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself: God, I thank Thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican:
I fast twice in the week, I GIVE TITHES OF ALL THAT I POSSESS.

S
savannah Jan 5, 2010

Godly Companions

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." Psalm 119:63

In the above verse we have a description of God's people according to the course of their lives and conduct. They are a people marked by two things: fear and submission, the latter being the fruit of the former. Regenerated souls obey God conscientiously out of reverence to His majesty and goodness, and from a due regard of His will as made known in His Word. The same description is given of them in Acts 10:35, "In every nation he who fears God and works righteousness is accepted with Him." It is a filial fear which is awed by God's greatness, and is careful not to offend Him, which is constrained by His love and is anxious to please Him. Such are the only ones fit to be a Christian's "companions."

A "companion" is, properly speaking, one whom I choose to walk and converse with in a way of friendship. Inasmuch as the companions we select is an optional matter, it is largely true that a person may be known by the company he or she keeps; hence the old adage, "Birds of a feather flock together." Scripture asks the searching question, "Can two walk together but except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3). A Christian, before his conversion, was controlled by the Prince of darkness and walked according to the course of this world (Ephesians 2:2,3), and therefore did he seek and enjoy the company of worldlings. But when he was born again the new nature within him prompted new tastes and desires—and so he seeks a new company, delighting only in the saints of God. Alas, that we do not always continue as we began.

The Christian is to have good will toward all with whom he comes in contact, desiring and seeking their best interests (Galatians 6:10). But he is not to be yoked to (2 Corinthians 6:14) nor have any fellowship with (Ephesians 5:11) those who are unbelievers, nor is he to delight in or have delight toward those who despise his Master. "Should you help the ungodly, and love those who hate the Lord?" (2 Chronicles 19:2).

Would you knowingly take a viper into your bosom? "The wicked is an abomination unto the righteous" (Proverbs 29:26).

So said David, "Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies." (Psalm 139:21, 22). That holy man could not be confederate with such. Evil company is to be sedulously avoided by the Christian, lest he become defiled by them. "He who walks with wise men shall be wise; but a companion of fools shall be destroyed" (Proverbs 13:20). Nor is it only the openly lawless and criminal who are to be shunned—but even, yes especially, those professing to be Christians yet who do not live the life of Christians. It is this latter class particularly against which the real child of God needs to be most on his guard: namely, those who say one thing and do another; those whose talk is pious—but whose walk differs little or nothing from the ungodly. The Word of God is plain and positive on this point: "Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them!" (2 Timothy 3:5). This is not merely good advice—but a Divine command which we disregard at our peril.

In selecting your "companions" let not a pleasing personality deceive you. The Devil himself often poses as "an angel of light," and sometimes his wolfish agents disguise themselves in "sheep's clothing" (Matthew 7:15). Be most careful in seeing to it that what draws you toward and makes you desire the companionship of Christian friends—is their love and likeness to Christ—and not their love and likeness to you. Shun as you would a deadly plague—those who are not awed by the fear of God, that is, a trembling lest they offend Him. Let not the Devil persuade you that you are too well established in the faith to be injured by intimacy with worldly "Christians"! Rather "follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22).

"Do not be deceived: Bad company corrupts good character" (1 Corinthians 15:33). Evil companionships "corrupt." All evil is contagious, and association with evildoers, whether they are "church members" or 'open infidels', has a defiling and debasing effect upon the true child of God. Mark well how the Holy Spirit has prefaced His warning: "Do not be deceived." Evidently there is a real danger of God's people imagining that they can play with fire without getting burned. Not so! God has not promised to protect us when we fly in the face of his danger signals. Observe too the next verse which is inseparably connected with the one to which we have directed attention.

"Awake to righteousness and sin not: for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame" (1 Corinthians 15:34). The word "awake" signifies to arouse as from a torpor or state of lethargy. It is a call to shake off the delusive spell that a Christian may company with Christless companions without being contaminated by them. "And sin not" in this respect. To cultivate friendship with religious worldlings Is SIN, for such "have not the knowledge of God". That is, they have no experimental acquaintance with Him, His fear is not on them, His authority has no weight with them. "I speak this to your shame." The child of God ought to be abashed and filled with confusion that he needs such a word as this.

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." Such are the only "companions" worth having, the only ones who will give you any encouragement to continue pressing forward along the "Narrow Way." It is not those who merely pretend to "believe" God's precepts, or profess to "stand for" them—but those who actually "keep" them. But where are such to be found these days? Ah, where indeed! They are but "few" in number (Matthew 7:14) one here and one there. Yes, so very "few" are they that we are constrained to cry, "Help, O Lord, for the godly are fast disappearing! The faithful have vanished from the earth!" (Psalm 12:1).

It is indeed solemn to read the words that immediately follow the last quoted scripture and find how aptly they apply to and how accurately they describe the multitude of godless professing "Christians" all around us: "they speak vanity everyone with his neighbor, with flattering lips, with a double heart do they speak" (v. 2). Note three things about them:

First, they "speak vanity" or "emptiness." Their words are like bubbles, there is nothing edifying about them. It cannot be otherwise for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matthew 12:34). Their poor hearts are empty (Matthew 12:44). So their speech is empty too.

Second, they have "flattering lips," which is the reason why they are so popular with the ungodly. They will seek to puff you up with a sense of your own importance, and pretend to admire the "much light" you have.

Third. they have a "double heart." They are vainly seeking to serve two masters: (cf. 2 Kings 17:32, 33).

"I am a companion to all who fear You—to all who follow Your precepts." There is a very real sense in which this is true even where there is no outward contact with such. Faithfulness to God, obedience to His Word, keeping His precepts, companying only with those who do so, turning away from everybody else—has always involved a lonely path. It was thus with Enoch (Jude 14). It was thus with Abraham (Isaiah 51:2). It was thus with Paul (2 Timothy 1:5).

It is the same today. Every city in the land is filled with "churches," —but where are those who give plain evidence that they are living in this world as "strangers and pilgrims" and as such abstaining "from fleshly lusts which war against the soul"? (1 Peter 2:11) But thank God, though the path of faithfulness to Him is a lonely one, it brings me into spiritual fellowship with those who have gone before. We are to walk by faith and not by sight—and faith perceives that walking with Christ "outside the camp" (Hebrews 13:13) necessarily brings into communion with "all" His redeemed, be they on earth or be they in heaven. Thus the apostle John in his lonely exile on Patmos referred to himself as "your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9). Yes, Christian reader, for a little while it means companionship "in tribulation," but, praise God it will not mean enduring the throes of the swiftly-approaching portion of Christless professors left behind when Christ comes for His own! ( 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). For a little while it means companionship in "the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ," soon it will be in the kingdom and glory of Christ. May Divine mercy so enable us to live now that in that Day we shall receive His "Well done! Good and faithful servant!" (A.W.P.)

H
Heydave Jan 5, 2010

Savannah,

Great exegesis on the law of tithing! Thanks for the detailed explanation of what tithing really is.

The point about circumcision is good. The tithe teachers always point to the fact that tithing pre-dates the law, but so does circumcision, but I don't hear them say we should all get circumcised!

G
Giggles Jan 5, 2010

bible4life, first I think an important consideration which no one mentioned (only because it is not the point of the thread)is that your friend isn't committed to a fellowship of believers. Not the first person, we want to take advice from.

As for tithing, I think it is important for believers to practice. There is almost a false dichotomy set up between following commands of the Law and expecting to be justified by your adherence to it. One can do one without doing the other. For example, this logic:

And, how can it be said that a man is not giving of necessity if he is obeying a LAW of tithing?

This makes no sense. What commands of God would a Christian follow then? Which commands of the New Testament do we follow? Only the ones we cheerfully desire too? Of course not. Remember when Christ went through the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5 and saying it was about the heart? He never nullifed the requirements but only took them a step farther. He was saying if your spirit is in order, you will fufill the letter and more. Of necessity? No, because it's your genuine desire as a new creation in Christ.

I'm sure all would say that Christians should give, and if a Christian didn't they were in the wrong. Why? Either because A)They are not following a command (whether an Old Testament or a New Testament one that seemingly takes the Old Testament one's legalistic place in a more noble, grace-filled way) or B)They weren't acting as new creations (falling into the myth of carnal Christianity where anything goes).

An interesting note is the Didache, while not considered inspired but nevertheless highly respected as an accurate historical document, shows that the early Church did practice tithing.

Personally, I think it is also a good precept to practice it teaches us to have that New Testament lifestyle of giving. Because if anything, under the New Covenant we are to give more.

'"He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none. And he who has food, let him do likewise" (Luke 3:11). That's 50% not 10%.

Zacchaeus stood and said, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor" (Luke 19:8). Again 50%.

Jesus said to the rich young man, "If you would be perfect, go sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me" (Matthew 19:21). That's 100%.

"So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33). Again 100%.

"A man said to him, 'I will follow you wherever you go.' And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head'" (Luke 9:57f.).

"All who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need" (Acts 2:44f.).

"There was not a needy person among them for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet" (Acts 4:34f.).

"In a severe test of affliction their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of liberality on their part. For they gave according to their means . . . and beyond their means" (2 Corinthians 8:2, 3).

The best way that I know how to capture the spirit of the New Testament generosity is simply to say: the issue is not, How much must I give? but, How much dare I keep? Not: Shall I tithe? But: How much of the money that I hold in trust for Christ can I take for my private use? The financial issue in the church today is not tithing, but exorbitance of life-style. The question is not can I afford to tithe, but can I justify the life-style that consumes 90% of my income? And behind that is the question: Do I love to use God's money to spread justice and mercy and spiritual hope in the world, or do I prefer to embezzle his money to purchase more and more personal comfort?'

The above in quotes excerpted from a John Piper message.

So do we tithe as though under the Law? No we begin with tithing as under grace that we may learn to give like the New Testament teaches.

*Edited for spelling and added content because no posts were made*

sermonindex Jan 5, 2010

Nice post Giggles.
Giving is good.

L
Lysa Jan 5, 2010

Giggles quotes John Piper:
The financial issue in the church today is not tithing, but exorbitance of life-style.

I hope he meant this for the churches as well as the people. Church leadership and I are both guilty of living WAY above our means and we both going to start feeling the brunt of it. God have mercy.

I liked most of what you quoted John Piper as saying except for the guilt trips and emotionalism which Jesus never stooped to by the way!

Every man according as he purposed in his heart, [i]so let him give[/i]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: [b]for God loves a cheerful giver.[/b]
2 Cor 9:7

Paul didn't say God loves a "cheerful tither;" no, he said a cheerful giver. Please don’t take me wrong and if you have been paying tithes for years, I’m not saying you will not be blessed, you will! God blessed me. If you choose to keep doing that, I’m not trying to convince anyone to not pay tithes; at least you are giving to something.

My point is that the Law of the Old Testament never addresses the condition of a man’s heart or his attitude toward anything even giving. It was based on pure obedience whether you agreed with it or not. Not to pay a tenth according to cheerfulness!

Jesus brought the New Covenant to us and it goes beyond mindless obedience to our motives (1 Cor 10.6), our intent (Heb 4.12), and our thoughts (2 Cor 10.15). The O.T. is “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Jesus comes along and tells them that to even LOOK upon a woman lustfully is as the sin of adultery. He cuts to the chase!

I give, just not to an institutional church, even though this is the New Covenant, I believe that not giving is NOT an option!

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