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Demon Possesion from the Prophetic Movement / Todd Bentley / IHOP / etc. -Kundalani spirits

sermonindex Jan 20, 2010

REPLIES to "KUNDALINI WARNING"

5 replies/ comments are below:

"D" writes:
I went to Lakeland 3 times. I was so drawn to go there. I really
thought it was of God... I had so many supernatural experiences -
to seeing a mystical Jesus with a third eye, angels talking to me,
visions, being transported. I had one experience with my daughter
being in the room and her experiencing it too. I was roaring like a
lion, had gold dust and many other experiences. The worst thing
that happened to me is that it got sexual. This false Jesus was
approaching me sexually and I fell into it. I still to this day do
not understand how I could have been so decieved. I have been
a Christian since the age of 16. I am 49 now... I fell right in... hook,
line and sinker. When I came home that last viist I became aware
it was demonic, and I was surrounded and covered with demons
literally, it was so horrible, all that I went through, you cannot
imagine... I was seeing demons and being touched sexually and
tormentingly constantly.. it has been 1 1/2 years and I am still
battling these demonic spirits. I cry out to the Lord everyday for
total deliverance. It has been horrible. I have renounced and
repented, but still fighting. How do we get free of this?

SHERIE writes:
I can testify that I was infested with this foul eastern spirit, the
kundalini. I was in a movement from 1992 - 2000 which had close
links with the Toronto movement. From 2000 - 2006 I joined a
church with links to Bill Johnson.
I was desperate for God to move in my life and change situations
and heal hurts and was very open to ministry - I had many in this
movement touch my forehead and experienced the manifestations
you describe - drunkenness, laughing and crying, shaking. I got
dreams and visions and just before I left the structure (church) I
had a vivid dream of a huge python that came through the back
door and attached itself to my car, and also to rooms in my home.
I was very disturbed and sought the Lord for an answer.

It took about 6 months before I was delivered, but God brought a
couple over my path who God had trained and had victory over
spiritual entities. Every time I was in their presence, I would get
very anxious, and they would calmly pray for me and I could feel
darkness leaving and my sanity restored. It was only after 6 months
of these episodes, I was again in their presence and sensed a fight
ensue in the Spirit. I was very anxious and fearful and could feel
a huge snake in my spine - I was rigid and very uncomfortable - It
felt as if this thing wanted to throttle me and rob me of my life. I
called out to God and they quietly prayed - then I asked the Lady
to pull this serpent out of my head - it felt as if it could exit near
the top of my crown. She continued to pray and I got the word
"kundalini " in my spirit and just commanded this thing by its
name to go in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. I pled the blood
as it was very frightening, and it left. I felt like a washed out rag,
but I was free!

That was the last lime I had deliverance and my spiritual eyes have
since opened and God has done a mighty work in me outside of
the structure... Afterwards they were amazed and asked me what
strange term I had used and where it came from - I had no idea
except that it was God who gave me knowledge in that situation.
Thank you for the info that has made everything clear to me!I Now
have confirmation from where I was infected! May many of your
readers heed the call of God to "come out and sever yourselves"
from Babylon and its lies and deception and foul spirits, while
there is time...

LUCY writes:
David Wilkerson also mentioned the kundalini spirit, and I
researched it in late October, after having attended the Fredericks-
burg (Virginia) Prayer Furnace at which Che Ahn ministered.
There, I saw many of the manifestations you mention: hopping
and jumping during "worship", falling backward at Che Ahn's touch,
extreme jerkiness in several cases. Very uncomfortable with this,
I came home and watched (my first time ever) videos of Todd
Bentley. Needless to say, I was appalled...

SARAH writes:
I'm just about in tears over all of this...
May and I watched the very first nights of the recent "outpouring
of the Holy Spirit" on the IHOP webstream and boy, did that turn
sour fast. Aside from the singing on the first night, everything was
just messed up. AHH! It's breaking my heart! How many people
do we know and love in KC?!
I've watched my beloved siblings laugh uncontrollably, jerk as
though sick, stumble and speak as though drunk, and "sing in
tongues" in complete chaos and without interpretation. I've raised
the issue among friends of being "drunk in the Spirit" and even
though I prove over and over that God is for self-control, which they
agree with, they continue to act like drunken fools! (See Titus 1:8
and 2:2; 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 which compared in the NKJV and
NIV relates self-control with being sober, pointing to the fact that
the Holy Spirit is not one who takes delight in being drunk at all,
but in being sober-minded - fruit of the Spirit, what? Drunkenness
is the complete opposite of being filled with the Holy Spirit! For
sober-mindedness is a filling of Him!; 1 Peter 1:13, 4:7, and 5:8 ...

BRENDA writes:
A very dear friend of mine who has been my prayer partner for
years were lured into the enemy's web of deception about many
of the ministries and manifestations that you spoke about. After
reading and listening to your web broadcasts we had a powerful
prayer session repenting, renouncing, and commanding any spirit
that we had picked up from these false prophets/doctrines of
demons, etc. to go from us in Jesus' name. We broke all kinds
of things off of us. Most of it was deep repentance and renouncing -
thank you for exposing the enemy and his tactics and all the
deception that the church body has fallen deeply into...

ANDREW STROM: Yes - if you have had "hands laid" or done
"soaking prayer" under any of these kinds of ministries, it is very
important to RENOUNCE (from the very depths of your being in
Jesus' name) and also COMMAND OUT these 'kundalini' spirits
or any other "anointing" that you have received. Remember, you
must VIOLENTLY EXPEL these things in the name of JESUS.
Be FREE in His mighty name!

I truly wonder what God is going to do to those ministries who
have been spreading this alien spirit right through the Body of
Christ. Truly, Judgment must begin "at the house of God."

Blessings to all,

Andrew Strom.

W
wayneman Jan 20, 2010

Well, this certainly helps answer my question as to whether these manifestations are psychological or demonic. The tragedy is that this deception is not like the health and wealth gospel, which appeals to the covetous and the worldly; it is a deception aimed at honest believers seeking the fullness of the Spirit. We cannot emphasize enough the need to try the spirits. 1 John 4:1

sermonindex Jan 20, 2010

Written below was part of a sermon given by Carter Conlon at Time Square Church on the first Sunday after the 9-11 attacks. This was given during the time when Andrew Strom was, at that time, involved in the prophetic movement from 2000-2006. I thank God that Andrew has come out of the movement and is spearheading a truthful discernment. But there were warnings then, warnings of the coming judgment upon the church. Todd Bentley and the Lakeland movement wasn't even around when this warning was given. God is speaking, and has spoken, through men like Carter Conlon and Andrew. And the things that were warned of then are coming to fruition. We would be wise to hear these warnings, apply what was spoken to what we now see, and take heed. We need to spread the word. Had these poor souls described here with their testimony of the Lakeland experience, been enlightened to the warnings of men like Conlon before Lakeland, they possibly could have been spared the bondage of the enemy. I thank God these souls have been delivered. And I thank God for the warnings ahead of time. Take heed.


"Beloved, several years ago a particular gospel landed on the southern shores of the United States. You might say that the American church was invaded…..gospel of laughter of jokes. A gospel of foolishness. I remember seeing this just a few weeks (ago) perhaps after all this began and I looked and it and I said to my wife: 'well at least it takes absolutely no discernment to see what this lunacy is.' And then much to my shock it swept almost the whole Western world great quarters of the charismatic, pentecostal movement. I remember crying out to God: 'God how could it be, how could it be…how could this thing happen to your church?'. You see folks we have forgotten something. Here we are in New York and the Twin Towers have come down and the Pentegon has been attacked and rightfully we can say the walls are down. And the justice of God is touching a nation that has rejected truth but we forget that judgment begins in the House of God. The arrival of this gospel was the JUDGMENT OF GOD on a slumbering church. A church that wanted prosperity, and security, that wanted no cross, no word, no repentance, no cutting of the sword, no living water. They wanted to feel good and so God…as you see in the Old Testament (Baal) ….spore (?) a spirit of drunkenness on what called itself the church of Jesus Christ. It was the JUDGMENT OF GOD. It began in the church."---- Carter Conlon 2001

Run for Your Life
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1724&commentView=itemComments

sermonindex Jan 20, 2010

This is the link to Todd's newest "restored" ministry, watch the video, the ministry is called "fresh fire", and Todd sits in front of the logo, and i GOT TO ADMIT, i laughed, (and i beg forgiveness) but look at what the new logo does behind his head......either these folks dont have a DIRECTOR, or a cameraman who can SEE, but i would have to say the devil is having a field day with this poor deluded man, God have mercy on his soul....prayer is our weapon and His balm.

[url=http://www.freshfireusa.com/]Todd Bentley (look at the top of his head)[/url]

i feel like writing Todd a letter...maybe.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Jan 20, 2010

Hi Neil...

[url=http://www.freshfireusa.com/]Todd Bentley (look at the top of his head)[/url]

Yeah, it made me laugh too. Those flames look a lot like horns, don't they?

:-P

sermonindex Jan 20, 2010

Yeah, it made me laugh too. Those flames look a lot like horns, don't they?

yes!!.....and i laughed at just.......just the whatever it is behind this awful terrible no good witness...or is it the enemy seizing this man?.....and then i felt terrible for laughing COZ ITS no laughing matter......i mean what is going on these days?!?

sometimes i understand the desire to be monastic..live in the desolate places, focus on Jesus...but we must trudge up Mars Hill....right?

xo

D
DBen Jan 21, 2010

God have mercy on his soul....prayer is our weapon and His balm

Bless you brother.

J
JesusLoves Jan 21, 2010

It is after a long long long time that i was able to read some articles here. This was the first post that I read and it brought great sorrow …

The verse that came to memory was 'Love does not rejoice in the wrong. Love bears all things –hopes all things …'

The prodigal story told by our savior Jesus Christ speaks about a son within the family who left home to ……. The story reminded me that our God is still waiting – if the heart of God is weeping for one child to come back who are we to laugh at Todd Bentley.

I was looking at Todd Bentley's upcoming events to see who could be speaking for his events. I see that he himself is the main speaker for all events. Will it not be a great day of rejoicing
if we would be burdened to pray
for a soul deceived by Satan to be delivered –
for this soul to realize the error of his ways
and repent-
that his eyes be opened to see a holy God…
that fresh fire –holy fire from heaven would consume everything unholy.

I am thankful to SI for having this forum where we are made aware of these things. Yes, post like this prompts us to watch and pray all the more--- at the same time encourages us not to be like the world- impatient-unkind -arrogant-rude but that we be full of love-mercy-patience-goodness-kindness...
"Lord help us to be on our face praying till we see satans grip broken. We need your grace to pray-to be burdened for lost souls. Help me heavenly father-help me-help us. In Jesus name amen."

sermonindex Jan 21, 2010

how right you are:

. Will it not be a great day of rejoicing
if we would be burdened to pray
for a soul deceived by Satan to be delivered –
for this soul to realize the error of his ways
and repent-
that his eyes be opened to see a holy God…
that fresh fire –holy fire from heaven would consume everything unholy.

amen.

i felt so convicted that i searched for the "pure" and found a 17 page 'interview' with Evan Roberts, under the posting "Enough Laughing"...i do believe you will be blessed in reading it.

in Jesus love, neil

G
Goldminer Jan 21, 2010

Thank you Jesusloves for sharing. As members of the body of Christ we need to weep between the porch and the altar for those we believer to be in error or bound by the enemy. We also need to be very careful because there may be issues in our own hearts that grieve God just as much. What about greed, lusting with our eyes, gossiping, revealing secrets that we are intrusted with, taking a brother to court, watching ungodly programs, ignoring those in need? The list is endless. We need to clean up our own backyards before we can clearly fix everybody else.

I agree that there is much flesh in these things, but does it cause us to fast, and weep and pray or just point the finger?

God can restore anyone and we need to love every member of the body enough to seek God for them. Love looks like something. Forgiveness is required for us to recieve it.

Also it is pretty risky to assume that just because folks went into a meeting and had some of the things described that it was the leader of the meetings fault. Some folks have problems before they got there, maybe years of demonic activity and they would have had the same problem in a Baptist or Church of Christ service. I have attended meetings that made my skin crawl, but it didn't make me want to do what they were doing. I am just saying we might be blaming our own fleshly reactions on somebody when we need to check out our own hearts.

When we keep ourselves in the love of God, seeking His face, reading is word, praying, fasting, taking up our cross daily, we can be sure not demonic spirit is going to get the mastery over us. It is only when we walk straddling the fence, half heartedly that we leave doors open to the enemy.

I will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on me, because he trusteth in me. God is able to keep that which we committ unto Him against that day. We do not have to walk around afraid demons are going to jump on us if we keep ourselves in the love of God. We are more than conquerors through Him.

When we seek God to fix things and not for just Himself we are on shakey ground already. When we have doves eyes and focus only on Him nothing can get us off center. We would see Jesus. This is my beloved son, hear ye him. There is safety in the place of total surrender to His kingship.

G
ginnyrose Jan 21, 2010

and i laughed at just

It might help you if you were to look up the word "laugh" in Strong's...you may be surprised how often it occurs. What is more surprising is how often it says that God laughs at the wicked.

Here are some references:
Psalms 2:4
Psalms 37:13
Psalms 59:8
Psalms 52:6
Proverbs 1:26

ginnyrose

H
hoohoou Jan 21, 2010

it is a deception aimed at honest believers seeking the fullness of the Spirit.

That is what bothers me the most about it. Have you ever tried to tell someone what they are doing is sinful and displeasing to God when their pastor is endorsing it from the pulpit? A lot of these teachings have become commonplace in our churches. I feel it's the same as the health and wealth, and name it and claim it teachings that are out there. Churches actually have John Crowder come and speak. I attend a pentecostal church and people in these churches believe in manifestations and are taught to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This makes these sort of wolves very dangerous to young people especially at these churches. 2 Peter 2:2-3 and 2 Peter 2:18 are good examples of these people. They use the desires of the flesh, whether manifestations or money, to entice. Both are equally dangerous. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, which is why these people distort it to their own desires.

W
wayneman Jan 21, 2010

I'm as guilty as anyone of getting in silly moods and indulging in "foolish talk (and) jesting, which are not convenient." Eph. 5:4 But when we are in the right spirit, humor is a legitimate weapon in the Christian arsenal. There is no better way to disaffect people to something than getting them to laugh at it. Consider Isaiah's satire of the idolator who uses half a log to make a god and the other half to cook his dinner. Is. 44:14-16 should we scold Isaiah for joking about something serious? Granted, the Bible's use of humor is limited. But I don't see any passage of Scripture that tells us to pray for false prophets. We're not even supposed to bid them godspeed. 2 John 10

sermonindex Jan 21, 2010

oh bless the Lord, and bless you!

i was feeling WRONG for laughing, and then i felt a Godly grief, when put the ministry of Evan Roberts alongside Todd bentley.....page 48 to 65.....Ginny, wouldnt you think that todd would read of Evan's high and holy humble calling and just be pricked to the heart?

much much love in Christ, neil xo

W
wayneman Jan 21, 2010

Good word HooHoou. Pentecostal/charismatics understand that the Lord moves in strange ways, so it is not a huge leap for John Crowder or Bentley to take it a step further and say that the Lord moves in silly ways.

sermonindex Jan 21, 2010

I completely agree with what you're saying, HooHoou. However, I don't think that teaching people to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the problem. (see 1 Cor. 14:1) The problem rather is Satan's ambassadors masquerading as angels of light, and deceiving poor ignorant souls that are very sincere in desiring a touch from God. When miraculous manifestations aren't tested by the Word of God, and are embraced just because they're supernatural and the name "Jesus" is shouted over them, then it becomes dangerous. (there's many people here in Mexico named "Jesus" -the question is WHICH "Jesus", 2 Cor. 11:4). Many of the manifestations promoted in many charismatic/pentecostal churches go outside the bounds of biblical example and are therefore extra-Scriptural and based only on experience, and therefore should not be promoted. I would rather reject an experience because it's not in the Bible than to reject the Bible because it doesn't embrace my experience. But many are rejecting the plain teaching of Scripture as if it's some "old revelation" in favor of some "new revelation" that these false prophets claim to have with their "new wave" of new age babylonian spiritism masked in Christianity.

Well balanced and biblical teaching on the genuine gifts of the Spirit should be done more often in my opinion (1 Cor. 12:1). God gave the real gifts to edify the Body of Christ and to help us fulfill the Great Commission. But with that should come instruction on how to recognize the counterfeit. These "kundalini" awakening demons have no place in the Body of Christ and should be discerned and rejected immediately wherever they appear.

Every teacher and preacher of the Word of God needs to be tested by their fruit, Mat 7:15-20 -which I understand to consist primarily of two things: (1) Their character/conduct and (2) Their doctrine/teachings. If there is manifestly bad fruit in either of these two things (i.e. works of iniquity in conduct or major doctrinal errors in fundamentals) then the prophet is a false prophet. We need to test the spirits, and test the prophets, and test our experiences. This does not mean we should judge others. To judge is to pass a sentence, and that is up to God alone, except in certain occasions of church discipline (1 Cor 5:12-13). But we must test all things, 1 Thes 5:21, in order to see if they are of God, or if they are of the evil one, in order to know whether to recieve them or to reject them. And contrary to modern opinion, it is actually a spiritual virtue commended by Jesus to test, recognize and reject false teachers, Rev. 2:2. The Bereans themselves were counted noble for questioning the message of the great Apostle Paul in order to test his doctrine with Scripture, Acts 17:11. -Of course, he passed the test! True messengers of God need not fear to face trial by Scripture, for such will only vindicate and reaffirm their message!

If there's any on this message board caught up in this Toronto Blessing/Prophetic Movement type stuff, I urge you in the name of Jesus Christ, seek God, study His Word, and test all things.

sermonindex Jan 21, 2010

I can see the hearts of those here who are concerned about this and am humbled and encouraged. One thing Paul talks about though which I think is very important and to my knowledge has yet to be put forward is the powerful delusion God will send in the last days. I believe that is here today. This is why I believe many do not test the spirits in the light of Scripture. Judgment is on the church, those who want and seek signs and wonders to satisfy either unbelief or just to have a 'feeling/experience' will get what they want from false prophets.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 (New International Version)

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11FOR THIS GOD SENDS THEM A POWERFUL DELUSION so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Paul also says 'pray without ceasing' and I want to believe that many will be plucked out of this by God's mercy and the pleading of the saints for His mercy. Deception is utterly evil... it blinds, binds, and taunts truth. The only time deception enjoys truth is when it's too late. My heart sinks with the very thought of it.

We talk about the coming of Christ and the events Jesus described in Matthew that precedes His coming. We look at the tragedy in Haiti and are reminded. But if you look at this scripture it also gives a glimpse of what precedes the coming of the lawless one.... it is in accordance with all kinds of conterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders. Brethren, we must be mindful of these times in both scenarios.


G
Goldminer Jan 21, 2010

I believe ccrider has stated the matter carefully and lovingly. My concern was the lack of love and concern for anyone that is believed in error. Do we stamp them as rejects or love them enough to be truly broken hearted over their condition. I do not condone the stupid stuff that goes on in some circles, but I feel the word says I am to love the brethern. Well we might ask who is our brother? Only the the separation of the tares and wheat will reveal that for sure. Until then I will treat all that speak the name of Jesus, other than a cuss word, as a brother and intercede for them that they will walk in truth. We must alway err on the side of love.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


We need to test the spirits, whether they be of God, but we need to love those in error enough to truly be broken and grieving for them and crying out until their eyes are open. You might say but they never listen. You don't know the end until the end. While it is still day we can work.

Also when a brother is in error or sinning we need to go to them and tell them what is correct not just talk about them. I have done this before, even to some in leadership and have been rejected and accepted. But I have continued to pray and love the rejectors. It is not up to us to stamp them as rejects.

I must ask do you love Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, etc or not. Do you love them so much that you will not let God rest until you see them fulfill all God has for them in truth? Christ died for them and loves them. Do you spend as much time grieving and fasting and calling upon God to help them as you do discussing them? That is love if you do and I commend you.

We are all in danger of walking in error. We each need God's mercy and love. The enemy blinds even the big ones at times. Which is a good point, if we humble ourselves and make of ourselves no reputation we will not fall so easily and most likely not as far.

I say to you all love these men as Christ does. I read in the word that He is at the Father's right hand interceding for them, and us.

G
ginnyrose Jan 21, 2010

Neil, when people are deceived they got there through making wrong choices. It does not seem to matter much who says what and when regardless of facts, they will not see it or understand any other point of view. We like to think that if you would show them scripture that would refute it, they would be pricked in their heart and be compelled to repent. Not so UNLESS the Holy Spirit is still working with them. Too many times deceived folks have seared their conscience by going against better knowledge.

Consider Bentley. While he was at Lakeland 'ministering' to thousands, do you not think the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his adulterous affair? How can the guy keep on going, using Jesus' name, thinking he is doing God's work and still violate his marriage vows? And there were miracles following! Miracles do not prove the validity of any ministry. Miracles grab people's attention alright, and in some cases it does glorify God, but it is the walk of the 'miracle worker' that one must check out: is he/she living a holy lifestyle?

This is the way I understand it....

BTW, being deceived is awful. When I was a young girl I did something dreadful and after I realized how bad it was it took me years before I could forgive myself for having been so dumb and stupid. What did I do? I found a 'letter from an angel' in my deceased grandparents Bible. Included in this letter were warnings that one should make copies to distribute and woe on you if you don't. Well, what did I do? I took it to school and read it at the the devotional time!!! Sure I was young and ignorant, but it still should never have happened...But the lesson I learned is that anything like this is BOGUS and to be discarded. NOW! And do not hang on to it because there may be some good in it - a little yeast leavens the entire lump! except in this case it was all wrong....

ginnyrose

EDIT: likely the reason I was able to understand that I was deceived is because I was so young and tender. Not so with older people who seemed to have had some maturity.

H
hoohoou Jan 21, 2010

Do I love these men? I love them as Jesus loved them. He loved them enough to tell them that they were white washed tombs full of dead mens bones. These men are not in error on some point of doctrine. They are blasphemous of the Holy Spirit, they are deceitful, they are polluting the precious gospel of salvation. These people are not brothers for you will know a tree by its fruit. I understand what you are saying, Goldminer, but the word also says that if any of these cause so much as one little lamb to stumble it would be better for them at judgment for a millstone to be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. That is harsh, but what they are doing will ultimately send many to hell because they are teaching a false gospel, they haven't just erred in judgment, they lack judgment, and live a lifestyle of deceit.

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