I listened today to this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=405&min=400&orderby=titleA&show=20]Sermon
I listened today to this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=405&min=400&orderby=titleA&show=20]Sermon
Ok, I just read Paul West's post on confronting ministers. I just want everyone to know that I'm not attacking his ministry, just seeking clarification on his views. I'm also seeking clarification on the doctrine that miracles have ceased. What's the basis of that? I reread my post and don't think it appears condemning, but I just wanted to be sure everyone understands that is not what I'm doing.
Hi,
I understand what you are saying and recently I have been led to some sermons that did not fit a fuller understanding of life under the New Covenant. However, like you, I have been led to other teaching by the same person that was deep and profound. In the thread about Samson, the question is raised as to why he is included in the Hall of Faith heros. I would answer that it is the same reason. By faith Samson was able to kill the lion, by faith he slew the men in response to pledge he made, by faith he was able to catch foxes that he used to destroy the fields of the Phillistines, by faith he had the strength to tear the gate and it's posts fr the city and carry them miles away, by faith he slew a thousand men with the jaw bone of an ass and by faith he was able to push down the pillars of the temple that killed the nobles and more people than he had done his entire life. In Hebrews we are warned of wicked unbelief that prevented the Jews from entering the Promise Land. However, before they came to that crossroad, they did have faith enough to follow Moses out into the desert and receive the Law and even made an outh to follow all of it and for the Lord to be their only god. What we see in those who do not know or are unable to teach all of the Gospel are people who may be stuck in sin or fear thar prevents them from holding to and living the full Gospel and thus being unwilling or unable to honestly share it. I know I personally am aware of Scripture that is not yet yeilded to because of sin or unbelief in my life and yet the Lord has used me encourage and build up others in ways that I could be a living example.
So when you come to a teacher that has blessed you before but now you have discovered falls short of the fuller life, do not dismiss them offhand because God may use them in the future to bless you and build you up for His own glory.
Peace
hoohoou check out John Macarthur if you want to learn more about the position that promotes cessation of the gifts and etc. He is a firm proponent of that doctrine and can probably articulate that position most thoroughly.
Here's his [url=http://www.gty.org/blog]blog[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=TnVj53uZVjkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=john+macarthur&lr=&cd=12#v=onepage&q=&f=false]book.
He deals with these thing rather frequently and does write with a polemic style. If you're heart is sensitive be advised, he is adamant about cessationism and is not afraid to say it and why.
Giggles,
Why would you advise someone to an off site false teaching that is clearly in opposition to the teachings of the New Covenant?
chapel,
in response to the OP:
That whole line of thinking just seems false. Can anyone shed some light on this?
I suppose I could try to recap a man like Macarthur and his position, but he's much better suited. As for his views, while I don't agree, SI does host some of his material here, so posting a link to the man's site is within reason.
From the SI FAQ:
Q. Some speakers on sermonindex vary in their doctrinal stance?
Answer. Because of the nature of this website and the amount of material available here, the views are those of the original speaker or author. Because of the diversity of viewpoints on some issues, there probably isnt a single individual anywhere who would subscribe to all of the views on all of the topics presented here, and we dont either. However, the material is still valuable and worth study. Someone has compared listening to an abundance of preachers to catchng and eating fish. If one eats a lot of fish, one must pick out a bone now and then, but the fish is still good.
Hope that shows my heart. Just trying to help someone find what they are looking for.
Gigles,
Please forgive my haste in questioning your response to
hoohoou. I just now saw this in their post.
I'm also seeking clarification on the doctrine that miracles have ceased. What's the basis of that?
Again, please forgive my mistake.
lee
I listened today to this Sermon by J. Vernon McGee. I've listened to him on the radio many times and enjoyed his teaching so I wasn't prepared for this. Someone correct my if I'm wrong, but he doesn't believe in miracles today? I haven't listened to part 2 and will tomorrow, but he seemed pretty clear that apostleship, healings and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles. This isn't a new doctrine to me, but I always thought those who espoused this view were outside of mainstream thought. Mr. McGee is highly respected. I mean Jesus even said that the saving of one's soul was a greater miracle than healing. We know people get saved. Is this line of thinking not so "out there" as I thought it was? I have to admit I'm not sure if I'll listen to any more of his sermons. I'm not sure I would trust anything he had to say. That whole line of thinking just seems false. Can anyone shed some light on this?
I'm not sure I would take your disagreement to that point. There's actually quite a few very good teachers both past and present who hold the same position, though if you grew up Pentecostal/Charismatic like I did then you've probably not been exposed to much of it. As far as reasoning, the main appeal is that the extraordinary gifts (as opposed to the more ordinary such as the teaching and serving) were meant for a specific time and place. The apostolic times were the most important cross-section in history, and the Bible describes the miracles done as being so great that people were left in fear of God. And this served to propel the Gospel forward and bring evidence of this revelation of God through Christ. It's not necessarily heretical, and may be in part a sound way of perceiving it. The truth is too, we don't see miracles today like what happened back then. We could either infer that God has set them aside for a time, or we're doing something very wrong.
I would qualify this issue with cessationism (and this is a general statement not specifically pointed at anyone's comments), I wouldn't take this stance on the miraculous gifts as non-belief in the work of the Spirit. There are some who although they don't believe the extraordinary gifts are still in use, still leave the power of their preaching at the mercy of the Holy Spirit. Spurgeon never held an altar call for example, because He believed that the Spirit would convict for salvation (and He did), and he's had words given to him by God. Jonathan Edwards believed that the extraordinary gifts had ceased, appealing to their purpose having been complete (at least for the time), but He wouldn't deny the work of the Spirit in the Great Awakening or the incredible response to his dryly-read sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." These men did see manifestations of the Spirit.
I think too that they would have an openness to seeing miracles again. Edwards noted in one of his works (link below) that the use of miracles even in Old Testament history was quite scattered, and so it's no surprise if the case is the same today. But still I get the hint from him that he would be open to seeing them again, but the occasion just hasn't risen yet.
I myself, I'm not sure where I stand.
I'd keep listening to Mr. McGee. And in part, he may actually be right. It may not be the whole story, but he may be seeing something that others don't. Let's not exceed what is written, but let's neither quench the Spirit.
Giggles, I understood what you were trying to do. Even if you didn't agree with MacArthur, I understood that you were simply passing on information.
If one eats a lot of fish, one must pick out a bone now and then, but the fish is still good.
I also understand what is trying to be said by the above quote, but I will have a hard time trusting the discernment and wisdom of the 2 mentioned on this thread. I will look past most disagreements in theology and doctrine if both sides can point to verses that support their idea, for example, tongues and initial evidence. All sides are supported by scriptural ideas but there seems to be a lack of specific verses saying very specific things in support of either side.
On the other hand cessationists seem to have to draw from multiple scriptures to form one idea. The other side can simply point to one verse, or more, such as James 5:14-15. Cessationists seem to use smoke and mirrors to tell you that what you're reading is not really what you're reading. It would seem that without them your average lay person would have no hope of deciphering scripture. John 14:26 says that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. There is also a verse, which I can't find, that says that the Word is written plainly. It's right there for us. The Holy Spirit will guide us if we are studying in submission to His authority.
I certainly don't doubt their sincerity or salvation, I just think this is a little different than two sides going to a handful of verses to form an idea and then coming to a different conclusion. The fact that I can go to one verse to win the argument makes me leery of almost anything they have to say. That and the fact of experience.
Thanks for understanding hoohoou.
I think a big verse cited for gift cessation is found in 1 Cor. 13:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I'm not sure what the trigger point is, but the imperfect prophecy (symbolizing all gifts) has passed away.
I believe post-millennials also say the gifts were for the 'last days' via Acts 2. According to this position, the last days ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and we are now in the 'new times.'
though if you grew up Pentecostal/Charismatic like I did then you've probably not been exposed to much of it.
Yeah, that's me. I discovered the teaching a few months ago and did some reading on it, though certainly not any serious study. The fact I grew up as you stated is most likely why it seems so "out there", because the idea is, in the circles I grew up in. That's not to say we are right, that was just the thinking.
t's not necessarily heretical, and may be in part a sound way of perceiving it.
I think we were writing at the same time because I tried to say that in my last post. I don't think they are heretical. I will just have a hard time learning from them. I don't know that I could trust them.
Again, I just think this teaching takes way too much liberty with interpretation when I can find the opposite argument in one specific verse. My biggest complaint about Mr. McGee is his interpretation of 1 Corinthians chapter 13. He basically used the entire chapter as a rebuke to tongues. He even said that verse 11 is saying that speaking in tongues is like talking baby talk and we should grow up and stop it. Well, if you're going to use that logic then we should disregard all prophesy and stop giving another cent to the poor and needy and not allow ourselves to be martyred. And Jesus was wrong when he said if we have faith the size of a mustard seed we can cast mountains into the sea.
The interpretation they use just seems very selective to me.
Very good thoughts on the subject though and it will give me something to pray and think about.
In my Bible study this past week we studied signs and wonders, and who they applied to in Bible Times. This is the outline of the Bible Study that might shed some light on this subject (BTW- i am a Baptist)
1.Signs & Wonders
A.\tThe Jews, as a nation, began with signs
i.\tAbraham- circumcision (Rom. 4:11)
ii.\tMoses
1.Confirming God’s direction: (Exo. 4:1-9, 9,
17,28, 30)
2. Confirming God’s leadership (Exo 13:9)
3. Confirming God’s worship/Sabbath (Ex 31:13, 17)
4.Signs is one way God chose Israel (Deu. 4:34;
6:22).
B.\tThe Old Testament Jews lived by signs
i.\tGod’s word was a sign (Deu. 11:18)
ii.\tStones of remembrance (Jos. 4:6)
iii.Test for God’s direction (1 Sam. 10:7)
iv.\t The Virgin Birth was a sign (Isa. 7:14)
C.\tThe Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ
i.\tMat. 12:38-40
1.Jesus had already given them dozens of signs:
a.\tMat 4:23-24, 8:4, 9:6-8, etc.
b.\tThe resurrection was the final sign
ii.\tMat 16:1-4
1. They could not read the signs of the times
D.\tThe Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles
i.\t(1 Cor. 1:22; John. 4:48).
ii.\tGentiles seek “wisdom”
E.\tThe Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).
i.\tThose who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
Does this help?
Berry
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I've heard that mainly preached and taught as being when Christ returns. I don't know though. This is something I'm going to have to really pray about and study on. And as far as the post-millennial's... I had to look to see how you spelled it. Not quite there in my studies. Give me about 20 years at my rate and we can have a good talk:)
ignore this
Thank you for your well worded response Anastasis. You expounded what I meant to convey originally. I actually did not grow up in churchs where the gifts were sought or used other than teaching and administrative ones. Occassionally, one might hear of someone being healed after hundreds or even thousands of people prayed for them but this is rare. Lip service is given to the Holy Spirit in these churchs but faith that He remains the same yesterday, today and forever and the command to seek after the Gifts of the Spirit is never taught, in part, because it is believed that they have ceased. Honestly after sitting in these churchs for years and years I am unable to recall ever learning anything from any particular sermon. Currently I am part of a Plymouth Brethern Assembly and this is one place where there is a mixture of those who do and do not believe in the cessasion of gifts who teach. When the one who believes God teachs, I am edified every time. His teaching has power and authority though he teaches gently. The others, though they are wonderful older brothers do no more than cite various commentaries and provide superficial explanations of the text. Again these people are wonderful, kind and generous people and in fact, though they do not believe in the Gifts of the Spirit they have a culture of faith to send and finance missionaries. I have a few aunts, uncles and cousins that are serving in missions with them and they have seen God provide for them without needing to raise support to do so. There is also the custom of having a Spirit led Breaking of Bread service where any brother in the assembly is allowed to share thoughts on Scripture, a song or prayer. This can be very edifying and I have seen many times how God has used it to prepare those for what will be discussed in the Sunday school classes or later in the sermon. I have said all this to say that they have only entered into a few areas of what is available to them by faith. In the next breath, I can look at myself and see how I have not entered into all the fullness of life in faith. There are areas where I think and know something to be true but have yet to see it realized. In the same manner, by faith some teachers here have understood certain passages and sections of Scripture but because unbelief, whether willfully or ignorantly, have not entered into the realm of the Gifts and their implications in Scripture and life.
One last note, I have often prayed and asked God why we do not see the Gifts of the Spirit here in America very often but elsewhere around the world where people take the Word of God as the Word of God and see Him work. The response has been that there is very little faith here.
Peace
Those who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
I'm not seeking a sign as proof of Christ and His Word. Jesus healed the lame man to prove to the Pharisees that He had the power to forgive sins, and he called the forgiveness of sins the greater miracle (Mark 2:9-10). I have the Holy Spirit bearing witness within me that my sins are forgiven. I know that Jesus did a miracle in my life, just ask my wife. That is all the sign I need. My point is not that I need a sign but that there is nowhere in the Bible that says specifically that miracles ended. But James 5:14-15 says that we can ask the Lord to heal us and he will. Someone earlier said that the reason that the Lord doesn't do miracles is that we're doing something wrong. We are doing a lot wrong, but in this instance we are putting our faith in man and not in God. Instead of searching our souls about why we don't see these things some people have reinterpreted scripture or gone to 19 verses to formulate a theory on it. God says that if we pray in faith that the Lord will raise up him who is sick.
So that this doesn't deteriorate into an argument let me say this. If anything I'm saying is coming across as terse or unloving please know that it is not my intent. I do feel strongly about it, but do not want to cause hurt feelings. These threads are only beneficial if the arguments are presented with the love of Christ and the end goal is learning something. We are dealing with brothers and sisters. I appreciate the verses given by Berry4Christ and I'd like to go through them and see what they are saying.
Totally forgiven chapel! God bless!!
(BTW, our Pastor believes that the Word of God needs to be rightly divided)
What follows are more of my notes from our Bible Study this past week:
The Apostles were the ones that had the gifts of healing, and operated in the power of signs and wonders, and during the first half of the book of Acts went out to the Jews (not the Gentiles). What was the requirement to be an apostle? Acts chapter 1 tells us that it had to be one who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus Christ: “21. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22. Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Also, another thing to consider is that at the beginning of Paul’s minsitry he had tremendous powers of healing. However, later on, at the end of his ministry, just before he went to Rome to eventually die, he could not heal himself, or others as he had previously been able to do, by the power of God--- Paul could not heal Trophimus (2 Tim. 4:20). Instead of healing Timothy, Paul gave him medical advice (1 Tim. 5:23).
My pastor teaches that in regards to healing today (a sign & wonder), that power has been transferred from the Apostles (who were all Jews) to the elders (The Bible uses Elder, Presbyter, Overseer, Bishop, Shepherd, Pastor interchangeably and they all refer to a single office in the church) of the Church: “14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”)
John 7:24 tells us to judge righteous judments. We should judge according to the Word of God because that is what we will be judged by. We are also to opeate in our strength by the power of the Holy Spirit and operate in our weaknesses by the mercy of the Holy Spirit.
Not sure if this helps, or not, but i wanted to share this with you.
Berry
Quote:
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Those who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
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I'm not seeking a sign as proof of Christ and His Word. Jesus healed the lame man to prove to the Pharisees that He had the power to forgive sins, and he called the forgiveness of sins the greater miracle (Mark 2:9-10). I have the Holy Spirit bearing witness within me that my sins are forgiven. I know that Jesus did a miracle in my life, just ask my wife. That is all the sign I need. My point is not that I need a sign but that there is nowhere in the Bible that says specifically that miracles ended. But James 5:14-15 says that we can ask the Lord to heal us and he will. Someone earlier said that the reason that the Lord doesn't do miracles is that we're doing something wrong. We are doing a lot wrong, but in this instance we are putting our faith in man and not in God. Instead of searching our souls about why we don't see these things some people have reinterpreted scripture or gone to 19 verses to formulate a theory on it. God says that if we pray in faith that the Lord will raise up him who is sick.
So that this doesn't deteriorate into an argument let me say this. If anything I'm saying is coming across as terse or unloving please know that it is not my intent. I do feel strongly about it, but do not want to cause hurt feelings. These threads are only beneficial if the arguments are presented with the love of Christ and the end goal is learning something. We are dealing with brothers and sisters. I appreciate the verses given by Berry4Christ and I'd like to go through them and see what they are saying.
Hey Anastasis
Since we are new creations in Christ,transformed,metamorphosis has taken place. We who were mere maggots are now beautiful butterflies. We are the greatest of all signs and wonders! Any study on this subject must build on this truth and reality.
ruf
According to Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, citing Joel 2:28-32, the apostle declared that the entire age would be a prophetic age, an age of the Spirit. This was a great hope of the prophets (especially Isaiah), and they tied the outpouring of the Spirit to being part of the Messianic task. People have embraced cessationist positions regarding the gifts simply because they have little to no understanding of the hope of the prophets, or the purpose of the outpouring of the Spirit, and the giving of the gifts that accompanied Christ in His ascension ministry.
According to Ephesians 4:11-17, and 1 Corinthians 12-14, the purpose for which the gifts have been given are so that the church of Jesus Christ might grow up into Him who is the head, to attain corporate maturity, stature, and unity. The gifts were not given for the limited purposes often stated by cessationist preachers. They were not given merely to validate the initial preaching of the gospel, nor to produce the writings of the New Testament. Of course, they have served these purposes. But nowhere in all of Scripture do you find any remote assertion that they existed for these purposes alone.
Indeed, to assert the cessation of some or all of the gifts of the Spirit is to assert that we are to accomplish the ministry of the Church in our own human power and strength. 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows how dependent you and I are upon these gifts to become the people of God we must become. I need apostles, prophets, teachers, tongues, etc., to operate in the Church. Likewise, you need them as well. Otherwise, you will never become what God would have you become, nor would the rest of the body of Christ.
Does this view diminish the sufficiency of Scripture for teaching and rebuke? Hardly. For these same Scriptures which are sufficient teach these very things. These very Scriptures teach that these gifts of the Holy Spirit have been given to compliment the ministry of the Word of God. Signs and wonders are needed just as much today, if not more so, than they were 2,000 years ago. We are in just as much need, if not more so, for the gifts of the Spirit to be in operation today. No, not so that we might chase signs and wonders as often is done in charismatica, but rather, so that you and I might speak a living word from heaven into the life of another person, and declare to them the mind of Christ at that moment.
The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. One cannot divide the testimony of Jesus from the prophetic Spirit which makes an utterance of that testimony possible. If Jesus still has a testimony to offer, then He cannot do that today apart from the prophetic Spirit of God. This age, from cover to cover, is to be a prophetic age, so that the eternal purposes of God might be accomplished through the Church, and the testimony He wishes to share concerning His Son might be shared with all nations.
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