Worried about possible WoF type teaching

I am very worried about the direction my church is going. I am seeking help and God's will - to know if I am in error, or if my church is in error.

I tried posting a sermon on here a few weeks ago, but due to forum rules, my post was deleted because I linked to an mp3. At any rate, I still have the mp3 available, but I will only be able to send it to people who Message me.

To basically give a quick overview of the message. The topic is "DNA of a Difference Maker." We've been going through a series of "Being a Difference Maker" - which essentially means, making a difference in other people's lives. That's all well and good. One of the latest sermons talked about David and Goliath. We went over several points, and this is our central verse:

Romans 8:37
"No, in all these things we are more than 'Difference Makers' [conquerors] through him who loved us."

(Yes, he really changed the words to Difference Makers, but then said, it might say 'conquerors' for you)

Key points:
1. It's in you - Each of us have the spirit of a difference maker. We can rise above the ordinary. When we understand Jesus says we are, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.
2. The DNA of a Difference Maker - David was a great difference maker.
2a. Humbly Dedicated - I am going to do what's necessary.
2b. Prepared - David was ready when he walked into that situation with Goliath. He was prepared to act and do great things for God.
2c. Great Faith - Understands and believes the word of God. Believes God will do what he said he would do.
2d. Victory is a done deal - You don't have to worry about it, Jesus said it, so it's a done deal.
2e. Speak to the Situation - David spoke to Goliath, not about Goliath. So he had victory.

In addition, in the latest sermon, he gave the following story (most transcribed word-for-word - I tried to keep the context intact):

(Welcome, and all of that - few testimonies)

I started putting into practice some of the things we've been talking about being a difference maker...

(Talks about how he has to get blood work done, and that he passed out multiple times during his last visit. He then begins to talk about his most recent visit).

As I was driving to the VA to get all this done, this is what I began to do. I began to speak to the situation. Amen. And I began to say, I do not pass out in Jesus name. That is not me. That used to be me, that's not me anymore.

And as I was going there I began to speak to my blood levels in Jesus name they are going to be normal, they're going to be perfect, all these things are not a problem, they're going to be good.

So I get there, the lady takes my blood. She was amazing, I didn't even feel it. I was looking out the window... I was quoting scripture and praying. I wasn't doing it obnoxiously, I was doing it under my breath. And usually they take about 2 viles, and for some reason they took 3. I don't know why, and I was really good; first vile, second vile. And when she popped in
a 3rd one, I thought, you've got to be kidding me. And so I began to pray in tounges at that point. (Audience chuckling). It works. And so everything was good. She slapped a cotton ball, slapped some tape on there, let me go, and I'm good to go. So I said Praise God, and it was good.

So I get my lab work back and my cholesterol was the lowest it has been in the 6 years that I've gone to the VA. So all my numbers, everything was perfect, great, good. I take my blood pressure on a regular basis, and it has been low also. I just want to tell you all that, because Speak to the Situation.

Whatever it is that's going on in your life, believe by faith it's a done deal. Speak to the situation, and watch begin to do amazing things. Because I have to be honest with you, in the 6 months since I went, I really didn't do a good job of eating and exercising. So, it was all God.

Again, I don't wish to take anything out of context - so I have original audio available to those who are willing to help. Thanks.

I believe GOD honors His Word and keeps His promises.
I believe we need to realize and understand who we
are in Christ and know our position in Him.
I also believe GOD is far greater than the circumstances
and situations we face.
That said, I don't speak to the situation; because I'm
not in charge and it is not in my hands !!
I believe GOD is working in the situation and can
use the situation to bring about His purpose and will.

Hi there

Your post resonates with me as I have concerns over this type of teaching also. Many of my friends have DVDs of WoF preachers and teachers. If I dare question them it leads to an awkward debate I usually give up on because it becomes acrimonious.

We must also be careful we don't end up judging these people. We can assess their teachings, but only God knows their heart and we mustn't misinterpret what they are saying.
If you search the forum you will find a host of threads dedicated to this topic. They may be years old now, but they contain a wealth of truth which you may find helpful.

Considering your post I would say that the sermon misses the point of Romans 8:37. The apostle is talking about believers being conquerors over sin (through Christ) and the trials that come with being a follower of Christ. The verse is not about making a difference in other people's lives. The latter is not untrue, just not the focus of this verse.

I personally find that WoF becomes cultish, like a works based religion e.g if you just believe it will happen. If you do this then this......
Really, it's nothing new. Just a new form of error appropriate to a prosperous period of human history (well, for the West anyway)
WoF works well if your goal is to boost your self esteem, prosperity, health etc. These things are likely to happen anyway in a prosperous nation were healthcare, investment/ employment opportunities and a semblance of moral values exist. But the real joy of Christianity comes from the knowledge deep in our souls that our sins are forgiven and we are new creations with eternal life in Christ. This begets in us a desire to tell others about Christ as well as show charity and love to our fellow humans. It is all from Christ though. In and of ourselves we are nothing.

God's will may be to prosper us, heal us...... whatever, but this is not promised in scripture and shouldn't be taught as such. Picking a verse here and a verse there and creating a doctrine out of it is highly dangerous. This is what WoF ministers tend to do and is why it is sometimes difficult to discern truth from error.

There is plenty of power in the WoF message, but little or no spiritual power because although sin, Christ's substitutionary death and resurrection along with our sanctification are mentioned, they are not the emphasis of the message, but more a side issue. This is wrong and often fatal.

We should pray earnestly for people caught up in this and be discerning when listening to preachers/teachers. We must also remember the grace God has shown to us and reflect this grace to others in our questioning. I think you've shown this in your post.

In Christ

David

Is your church part of a denominiation? You're absolutely right to be concerned. I've just discovered that the leadership of the AoG in the UK is going this way. Right up at the top, they are recommending books by people who have departed from the biblical faith, and have found ways of circum-navigating the cross of Christ.

Yes, my church is an AoG church. I've noticed other things as well. Such as people talking about Joyce Meyers teaching - also, a lot of people seem to really like Tommy Barnett from Phoenix First AoG. Which, from what I read briefly, he has had guests like Joyce Meyers and TD Jakes. We also went over teachings by John Bevere before. I'm only 23, but I don't remember AoG churches always being this way.

Everyone else, thank you for your help and support. I am going to soak it all in and then reply back.

I listened to a few minutes when you first posted the link but the thread was deleted before I could respond. The preacher lost me when he said, "Turn to the person next to you and say..." That is a form of crowd manipulation known as "auto-suggestion." Everybody hates when preachers do that but they do it anyway. The message is no better or worse than the man-centered gospel we hear at just about any evengelical church in America: a Bible-based self-improvement course, "How to Take Charge of Your Life," Christian Dianetics.

hi, like all things ;eat the fish and spit out the bones. the bible says that we are healed by the stripes of Jesus.it also says if you have the faith in his word you will have what you say.look at rom 10 9,10 for salvation. look up the greek for salvation[sozo] and see what it includes.what are we to say... the opposite no...jimp

This is a very New Age teaching. The New Age teachings are rampant in the church today. I would suggest that you distance yourself from these teachings before they take root in your own life. God's Word is what all our beliefs should be based on. Anything that does not line up with the Word is not of God.

Warren Smith has some good books on the New Age. His testimony "The Light that was Dark" is excellant reading telling of his journey in seeking the truth.

We must also be careful we don't end up judging these people. We can assess their teachings, but only God knows their heart and we mustn't misinterpret what they are saying.

We can also look at them and the fruits they bear

Mat 7:15-20vBeware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [b]Ye shall know them by their fruits.[/b] Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [b]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.[/b] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [b]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.[/b]

Thank you everyone for your help.

I grew up in a movement that was at the very heart of 20th century American pentecostalism. I knew elderly people who were personal friends of some of those who were participants in the Topeka, KS outpouring in 1901. But this movement had become a very closed group. I often heard criticisms of other ministries who were not part of our group and warnings that if you listened to any of those other people you would get off into error for sure. I think many really believed they were part of the only group who really had all of their doctrinal and theological ducks in a row.

I say that to say this. Over my 30 years as a Christian I have been exposed to all kinds of teaching and have never been afraid to go here or there to see what God was doing. One thing I have always done is prayerfully study the scriptures and compare everything I heard with the sure word of prophecy (the Bible). I have seen those who have only studied scripture through the glassed of their denominational affiliation. Guess what...they came to the same conclusions as their teachers. I have learned to dig deep into scripture and count no interpretation of man as sacred. Teachers and preachers help us understand scripture, that is true. That is part of God's system. But we are never to get over into the, "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos..." camp. And this is very subtle sometimes. Be a Berean and search it out.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The WoF movement caught a revelation from the Word that had been lacking in the body to that point. But, some of them went to seed on some things. WoF doctrine is not 100% accurate or correct, but it is not occultish either. The same can be said of almost any denominational monument that has been built by men following a move of God. Baptist's have caught hold of some powerful revelation of the Word of God in some areas, and in others they have just flat missed some things. The same can be said of AoG, Presbyterians, Methodists, you name it. We must be students of the Word and compare everything to it. We must be followers of Christ, not of any denominational interpretation.

I would never speak against Joyce Meyer. God has used her to have a powerful impact and many many people are born again and living for God because of her. Likewise I would not speak against any man or woman of God who is preaching the gospel and bearing fruit. If there are areas of teaching that I feel strongly are not in accordance with the Word of God, I might say, "I don't believe so-and-so is right on that issue and here is why...". I would have studied the issue and prayed over it until I felt like I could show clearly from scripture what the error and truth are.

I have been very wrong before in my interpretation, and I am sure I will be again. Praise God for His instruction and His grace.

Anyway, that is my opinion for what it is worth. I do believe there is great truth in exercising the spiritual authority given us by God and speaking to your mountain, commanding it to be removed into the sea. Nowhere do we ever find an example of one of the apostles praying to God asking Him to heal someone who was sick as if He had to subject Christ to the stripes again for each request. The apsotles said things like, "such as I have give I you, in the name of Jesus rise and walk". This guy may not be right about everything, but the idea of exercising spiritual authority out of the power of the Holy Spirit operating in our lives is scriptural.

Travis

hi,in my time of close fellowship with bro. ravenhill he would always tell me not to believe anything a preacher said without studying the bible; especially him.jimp

Twayneb, I really enjoyed your thoughts on the subject. I know that people who are hungry for God, no matter where they are, God will show Himself to them. I know from experience. When I was searching for the correct religion. God used a Jehovah Witness to open the Bible to me. I read what she pointed out but the Holy Spirit came on me and I kept reading as it came alive to me and she kept talking but I didnt hear a word she said. I gave my life to Jesus of the King James Bible several months later in a living room full of very, very young hippies! Glory to God! God is searching for hearts longing for Him. I guess we need to pray that people will be hungry for God more than hungry for the things of the world. God loves us all. I have seen one in particular preacher grow in his sermons lifting up the Lord and His ways more and more almost every time I hear him. I know God loves him. This is what counts. Are we growing in our relationship with Him and is there fruit. And we who are more mature - grin - should be praying for these preachers who are so popular that the Lord would bring revelation to them so that their followers will also find Truth. I believe that is God's heart.

It sounds like a willow creek association message. Go to their website and see if your church is listed there. The message more or less sounds like a self esteem message. Sort of like Joel Osteen where the assumption is made that you are child of God and without sin. By the way, have noticed if your church preaches against sin anymore? One symptom of your church going the Willow creek seeker sensitive path is if they say they are making Sundays a day of celebration and will focus on grace and love.

[url=http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_info/find_a_church/profilesearch.asp]click here to find out if your church is part of WCA[/url]

Brother, if I may dispute with you? When looking at what they purport to believe and its closeness to scripture, I understand why you said that. But the outworking of extra-biblical doctrine from books by modern religious writers, is indeed witchcraft, according to scripture. It is not added into the whole word of God which would be bad enough! It is put in place of some of the word of God, and in this they do greatly stray from the narrow way. The false teachings permit the preacher to accuse his audience of lack of faith, lack of generosity of spirit, and generally hold them responsible for everything that is wrong in their lives (or, that of the church - in 'love' of course), bringing much legalism and bondage to bear; while offering no solutions except harder work, more appearances at church, more money in the offering (and so on). Sin is not addressed (while lack of 'faith' appears to be) and the cross is a distant memory even when breaking bread. The blood, and its power, is not even understood properly, and so it slowly disappears from songs which already lack substance, hymns are never or rarely sung, and open fellowship in prayer is a religious exercise completely lacking in power - if it is even permitted. These are the outcomes of following 'other teachers' than Christ and His apostles.

Alive-to-God: You may dispute with me brother, and it won't upset me in the least.

I would be in total agreement with you if you said, "There are many in the WoF movement who have become unbalanced and have gone to seed on some legitimate teachings, taking them far beyond what is Biblical and in doing so have led many astray." I would also be in total agreement if you had made this same statement about most any denominational faction in the church.

What I would disagree with is the blanket statements made about the WoF movement in general. For example, preachers accusing their flocks of having a lack of faith. There have been many in the WoF movement who have taken this teaching to an extreme I do not see Biblically, but that does not diminish the fact that faith pleases God, and that everything we receive from God comes as we put faith in what He has done. Faith is our positive response, taking Him at His word, and taking hold of something that is already a reality in the Spirit but must be manifest in the natural realm. Many people began to try to use faith like a lever to move God, as if God had some kind of a faith-o-meter and when you had extended enough faith, then whammo, you got it! But this is a perversion of a genuine truth, being that we must receive from God by faith.

There is a truth that we are often responsible for what is wrong in our lives. Sometimes it is through our own sins and choices. I am sure from things you have said before that you would agree with that statement. But sometimes we are ignorant of the Word or have had wrong teaching and it prevents us from receiving from God and causes problems in our lives just the same. For example, if I think that it is God's will that I am sick for some "higher redemptive purpose", then I will not be able to stand in faith for healing. I will always be trying to guess whether this time I am being attacked by the enemy, or by God? Some have taken these truths and have then gone beyond and perverted them, saying that if you have not received healing that you are in sin, or that it is "your fault", and "what is wrong with you?", heaping condemnation on someone and not at all in the true love of Christ. This is wrong, but it is not all WoF people who have gone down this road.

If I were more familiar with the teachings of some other groups I am sure I could draw similar things from them. My point is that just because some have gone into error does not mean that the entirety of the movement is in error.

I do know a great number of very solid people who have come up in the WoF movement, and they are able to identify the same things you spoke of and recognize them as error and a perversion of the teaching they have had all their lives. There are things I have learned form WoF people, and there are things I have rejected from WoF people. I am just saying don't throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater.