Would like some thoughts on how this Scripture is applied?

Greetings
Is a wife of a believing husband also his sister in Christ?(thinking of eternity and heavenly relationships) Along this line of thinking should a wife/husband speak to one another about a particular sin they are in first, and if he/she is unresponsive should they take it to some others in the church so that they may be a witness in sharing with the spouse, and then if need be to the entire church? I am asking about Matthew 18:15-17 15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Would this apply to a married couple as it would to any other brother or sister in Christ?

I should mention this is not a personal question for myself but it is from a teaching I was reading through and trying to understand.

God Bless
mj

Husband and wife share a covenant bond; they are
united in the eyes of the LORD. A marriage is
a sacred trust; and the wife should warn her
husband if he is not walking in GOD'S will
and following Christ's example of loving her
as Christ loved the church !!

Husband and wife share a covenant bond; they are united in the eyes of the LORD.

You mentioned that they share a covenant bond because they are husband and wife, does this mean they are not considered brother/sister in heaven? I ask because the Bible does say that there is no marriage in heaven. So my husband would not be my husband in heaven he would be my brother in Christ? Right?

A marriage is a sacred trust; and the wife should warn her husband if he is not walking in GOD'S will

I agree there must be trust in a marriage and a wife/husband should warn their spouse if they are in sin. What I am wondering is about this particular verse and how is it to be applied in the situation of a married couple? If it is even meant to be applied to married couples?

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario, if a wife observes that her husband often lies to other brothers/sisters in the body to get out of doing things he does not want to take part in and she confronts him about the lies but he sees no problem with this should the wife go to others in the body and have them come along with her to share with her husband? Should if necessary it be brought before the church as well? Is there a literal application of Matthew 18:15-17 to be applied to a married couple?

Thanks for sharing
God Bless
mj

Also as I am considering this another question has come to mind, since there is no marriage in heaven(the Bible tells us clearly there is not) what does become of the marriage covenant bond between a husband and wife in eternity? Is it just gone?

That is a great question. There are verses that come to mind in response, but for some reason I am hesitant to answer. I need to think and pray about this for a while.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario, if a wife observes that her husband often lies to other brothers/sisters in the body to get out of doing things he does not want to take part in and she confronts him about the lies but he sees no problem with this should the wife go to others in the body and have them come along with her to share with her husband? Should if necessary it be brought before the church as well? Is there a literal application of Matthew 18:15-17 to be applied to a married couple?

I would say "yes." But, I'll be interested to see how others respond. What is most important is the husband's soul. And, Matthew 18 is the ordained means for the recovery of a brother.

With care in Christ...

After thinking for a bit, I have concluded that you have proposed a bit of a conundrum similar to when the woman caught in adultery was brought to Christ by the legalists. (Not that I am saying you are one, just a similar sort of problem.)

The covenant of marriage is a unique relationship that transcends every other relationship we have in life, because we become "one" flesh. It would seem to me that the answer to your question would be yes but with a huge caveat. Like Christ, the wife would have to exemplify the reproach and ignominy of the cross in how the situation plays out. You must think of it in terms that you are placing yourself along with him, under the scrutiny of others. You would need to be willing to suffer the same reproach he suffered as if it was you who was being prosecuted. I would think this would be the most Christ-Like way to handle it. Otherwise it would seem to me that you would be breaking other commands in scripture. However some of those verses I am thinking of, could only be carnally understood in my own mind.

There are few burdens to bear in life more heavy and more worthily than the burdens between a husband and wife.

I have other thoughts on this, and by no means is this a complete answer, it is just what is coming to mind at the moment.

Because we become one, which has not been annulled in this life, there are things to be considered in that oneness.

Greetings Areadymind

you have proposed a bit of a conundrum

Actually this topic was brought up in a teaching I am reading on marriage and I agree it is a conundrum.That is why I was asking here:) I am still praying over and trying to understand it more fully.

The covenant of marriage is a unique relationship that transcends every other relationship we have in life, because we become "one" flesh.

I agree with this also and yet if a spouse professes the name of Jesus and refuses to repent and walk in the light, the most important thing would be his/her eternity and relationship with Christ? Right?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

God Bless
mj

MaryJane:

should a wife/husband speak to one another about a particular sin they are in first, and if he/she is unresponsive should they take it to some others in the church so that they may be a witness in sharing with the spouse, and then if need be to the entire church?

yet if a spouse professes the name of Jesus and refuses to repent and walk in the light

Is this situation that you specifically proposed purely hypothetical, or was this the type of situation the "teacher" had proposed had happened in real life?

Yes, I agree, eternity trumps everything M.J.

We submit to the call of Christ above all things.

I guess though that the question assumes that all other biblical avenues for resolving the problem have been tried first. In the specific situation was fasting, anguish and wrestling in prayer, true biblical humility on the part of the wife, daily death and a loving approach to winning the husband by overcoming the evil with the good? Tons of hot coals heaped, as well as personal daily death used to win the spouse?

It seems that the example given presumes that none of those things would work.

If it were me, the first thing I would do, were the situation switched and it was my wife who was lying, yet always claiming to be a follower of the Lord. I would first do all the things I just suggested, then in an act of desperation, I would corner her with the ultimate question as to whether or not she really considered herself to be a follower of Christ. Then I would take her to passages of scripture that indicate that lying as a believer is a total sin. At this point there are probably a few typical responses that a spouse would make to their other half. The typical response of someone unwilling to repent is they will come up with a sin that you commit and completely derail the conversation because you have sin in your life also (I know this because I have used this wicked tactic myself, and it is totally evil.) Never-mind that it may be a sin that is not one of rebellion, but a sin you struggle to overcome. In some cases it seems there is a difference there, but that is a whole different topic or thread. The other issue that the situation does not allow, is that in marriage, if one of the two is sinning, the other is not always as innocent in the perpetration as they would like to admit.

I find that a lot of times when it comes to these deep types of personal issues, a lot of "Teachers" propose real boiler plate responses, that limit out the leading of the Spirit in the situation. I have heard teachers offer the same exact type of solution to a whole smattering of dynamic and complex issues.

I have learned after ten years of marriage, that I rarely am the one who needs to confront my wife about anything. She is always light years ahead of me when it comes to naturally just submitting to the Lord, and being my amazing Pollyanna. However there have been a few occasions, and I think I can count them on two hands where I felt the need to confront my wife about something where I felt sin was present. Without fail, if I approached her in a Spirit of humility, and love, she ALWAYS responded. When I came with a haughty attitude, even using the Word, I was nothing but a sounding gong.

But, back to the hypothetical situation, if she refused, blatantly, yet continued to maintain that she was, in fact, a believer, I would take her to that passage you quoted and tell her that the word tells me that I am supposed to take her before other witnesses, and follow the whole chain of command. I have a feeling though, that if the person is a believer, truly and purely, this would never be an issue. I have a feeling, that if it got to this point of pointing her to that passage and asking her if that is what she wanted, because she was a believer, then something would crack. Either she would admit she was lying to herself about being a believer, or she would continue to harden her heart. All I know is that something dramatic happens when a person seeks God with ALL their heart on behalf of someone else...I guess that this would have to be exhausted for me first before I was willing to publicly humiliate my wife.

I also am thinking that there are times when a spouse will just simply have to say something bold and drastic to get the other persons attention. I always have been dramatically shocked every time I read the story about how Zipporah threw a foreskin at the feet of Moses from her son, because Moses was not willing to do the bloody work himself. Probably one of the more dramatic stories in the Word about the intimate interactions between a husband and a wife. But this dramatic display actually saved Moses life. Exodus 4:24-26. On the outset, could you picture a paid marriage councilor or a Pastor telling a person to do such a thing...LOL the thought is laughable. But God works through spousal relationships in strange and mysterious ways.

I still have a lot of other thoughts about this, and for some reason this is the longest thing I have ever written on this forum. I guess the question really makes me think about a lot of other issues that seem to swirl around these types of problems.

Adam and Eve were co-conspirators in their sins.

So were Abraham and Sarah.

So were David and Michal

So were Annanias and Saphira

So were David and Bathsheba

So were Solomon and hundreds of other women.

Sin is more interwoven in a marriage than we recognize. Which is why I originally said that it seems there needs to be a way of dying for that person and being willing to suffer the reproach they themselves would suffer. Attitude and heart are everything.

Sorry for the much wind. May God incinerate anything I said that is not of Him, but of me in your mind.

God Bless.

Greetings Areadymind

You wrote:

Is this situation that you specifically proposed purely hypothetical, or was this the type of situation the "teacher" had proposed had happened in real life?

The situation that I wrote about was purely hypothetical and not in the teaching. I was trying to give an example of what I was understanding the writer was trying to convey. Here is a small portion of that teaching that has lead me to ask my questions.
_________
A marriage is not a legal place to sin. “Do what you want, inside of your own four walls.” That is not the way the Scriptures read. Also, if your brother or sister who is caught in a sin happens to be your spouse, it’s not, “Take it to them and them alone… but don’t bring two or three witnesses, because they are your spouse, or best friend, or….” Wrong. Those things have to take place. Remember, we’re neither married nor given in marriage in heaven—there’s something much bigger at stake here!"
_________

You wrote:

I guess though that the question assumes that all other biblical avenues for resolving the problem have been tried first. In the specific situation was fasting, anguish and wrestling in prayer, true biblical humility on the part of the wife, daily death and a loving approach to winning the husband by overcoming the evil with the good? Tons of hot coals heaped, as well as personal daily death used to win the spouse?

Yes it does mention also in the teaching all of these things but that in the end if the spouse is unwilling to receive corrections then there is no room for special treatment because they are your spouse. Here is another small portion of the teaching,
______
Now, back to relationships amongst Believers. Take the opportunity to use whatever resources you have available, to help them Grow in Christ—even if it involves bringing other people into the picture. If “to him and him alone” is ineffective (because they “won’t hear you” or because there is no change) then JESUS said there was a next step to take! Bring “two or three others” and even involve the entire church if necessary to snatch them from ways that crucify Jesus and harm their ability to have a true relationship with the Father. It is not in THEIR best interests, as well as being forbidden by God, to just turn away and ignore sin in your home or relationships. Again, marriage is not a place to hide from God’s Word. It’s a place to explore a close-proximity relationship to help each other be more like Jesus.
________

You wrote:

I have learned after ten years of marriage, that I rarely am the one who needs to confront my wife about anything. She is always light years ahead of me when it comes to naturally just submitting to the Lord

My husband is the one always way ahead of me. He just has a real heart and love for the Lord.
___________________________________________________________

You wrote:

.I guess that this would have to be exhausted for me first before I was willing to publicly humiliate my wife.

I agree, I think that is why this portion of the teaching just has been so difficult for me. Thanks though for taking the time to share what the Lord is showing you on this.

God Bless
mj

I guess then I was more in line with what you were reading than I thought.

One other question your question raises for me, is whether or not such an attitude of obstinacy to submission to the Word is even the behavior of a Christian at all. I have a hard time with separating faith and obedience. I really wrestle with the notion that I could be so blatantly rebellious to the things of God and still name the name of Christ. Which I guess brings us full circle to the issue of eternity. Unrepentant, perpetual, discovered and public sin is a sign of no true saving faith. Romans 6:14

Hence then all the other issues are superceded by the question of "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?"

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Quotations from Matthew 12:48-50

These were the verses that originally came to mind when I first read your question that I was hesitant to respond with. But I do not think it would be a stretch to throw in the husband or wife into the same original question. The issue he raised was simply the relationship to him.

Greetings

Your wrote:

Hence then all the other issues are superceded by the question of "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?" "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Actually the same author has another teaching that speaks on this concerning family relationships and to be honest I have found it to be really challenging also. That is another thread though:)

Just wanted to say thanks again for sharing your thoughts with me.

God Bless
mj

Matt. 18:15-17 "Now if your brother sins against you, be going, and show him his fault between you and him alone, if he hears you, you gained your brother. But if he does not hear,take along with you yet one or two, so that 'by mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.' But if he refuses to listen to them, tell to the assembly; but if he also refuses to listen to the assembly, he shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector."

Who are the proper candidates for the action spoken of in these verses?

"Now if your brother sins against you..."

A 'brother' would be anyone who is part of the assembly which profess the faith of Christ, therefore making the parties in this action fellow christians.

"...be going, and show him his fault between you and him alone..."

Here Jesus does not elaborate on any particular sin or sins. Therefore we may not speculate or vainly imagine sins which do and sins which do not fall under this general and plain statement of Jesus. Yet,we may meditate upon the wisdom of the proverbs here where we read, "Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins" and "The wisdom of a man hath deferred his anger, And his glory is to pass over transgression" (Prov. 10:12, 19:11). And again we read, "Brothers , if anyone among you is led astray from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him be knowing that the one having turned back a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19,20) Note James address is to 'brothers' and 'anyone among you'.

The first step being done, and to no avail, leads to the next step where the offended party is to "...take along with you yet one or two..."

After these two more informal proceedings have failed to bring the offender to remorse and repentance,the third and more formal step must be implemented and they must, "...tell to the assembly...".

If after this third step with all of the above being done in the spirit of Ga. 6:1 "Brethren, if a man also may be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself--lest thou also may be tempted", "...if he also refuses to listen to the assembly, he shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector."

The Word of God states it plainly that there may be no other recourse than that which has been clearly delineated in the Words of our LORD Himself.

To answer your question, "Is a wife of a believing husband also his sister in Christ?", The simple answer is yes.

To answer your more difficult question, "Would this apply to a married couple as it would to any other brother or sister in Christ?", the framing of your very quesstion is a good indicator that there's more which would need to be said than that which has been said above. A married couple, (as has been mentioned already by another on this thread), have a different relationship as well as different responsibilities and duties to one another, and they're not merely 'any other brother or sister in Christ'.

Much else must be taken into consideration before,during,and after these steps are proceeded upon. Each particular case may vary, yet we are never to neglect the Word Of God to follow our own course of action thinking we know better.

It may be that marriages could be saved by following Christ's clear directives even in marital relationships. And why not if we truly trust in the Living God, His Word and His Power.

As one has rightly stated, ""Strangely, some never think of using church discipline, even informal discipline, when the two parties are husband and wife. Why not? A Christian husband and wife are not merely married persons, they are also brother and sister in Christ's church. Most marital problems could be resolved early by active, informal disciplinary action."

If the objection be made that this may open wide a door for a rebellious wife to exaggerate her husbands failures and expose some of his sins (or a prideful husband may do the same), I very well concur that this may indeed follow. Yet, we cannot ignore nor neglect God's express command to us as to how to handle offenses. The mere possibility and probability of this occuring must give way to our faith in an omniscient God rather than in our own wisdom and/or lack of it. Sin will surely show its ugly head in these and other matters, but may we be ever so discerning and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

My concluding thought is that if your husband or wife "...shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector", how might this look in practice in comparison to your relationship 'to any other brother or sister in Christ'.

I know that there are some who'd take this to very unbiblical forms of action. I have seen the positive and the negative of all I have discussed above.

Sin plagues us all, that is one reason why Jesus said, "Beware of men" (Matthew 10:17).

Beware of men - "prosechete apo ton anthropon" in
Greek - hold your mind away from men. Be on guard
against men. Beware of men.

The word "men" is the English translation of "anthropon." It means "human beings" (Strong's #444). Our English word anthropology comes from this Greek word "anthropos." Anthropology is the study of mankind. And "anthropon" refers to human beings in general. Jesus said,

"Beware, be on guard against, human beings."

Greetings Savannah

You Wrote:

A married couple, (as has been mentioned already by another on this thread), have a different relationship as well as different responsibilities and duties to one another, and they're not merely 'any other brother or sister in Christ'.

In my reading and understanding(and this is just my thoughts) this teaching does seem to some degree to place less importance on the marriage bond and relationship.It does mention the fact that there is no marriage in Heaven as another verse to show there should be no distiction when applying Matthew 18:15-17. This is one reason that I was having all these questions.

You wrote:

As one has rightly stated, ""Strangely, some never think of using church discipline, even informal discipline, when the two parties are husband and wife. Why not? A Christian husband and wife are not merely married persons, they are also brother and sister in Christ's church. Most marital problems could be resolved early by active, informal disciplinary action."

I will be honest that this had never occurred to me before but I am seeing more and more that if done in the love of Christ with the desire to see ones spouse, brother/sister restored it is a scriptural way to deal with believers who are walking in sin. I think though that much prayer and seeking God must take place before such a step is taken?

You wrote:

If the objection be made that this may open wide a door for a rebellious wife to exaggerate her husbands failures and expose some of his sins (or a prideful husband may do the same), I very well concur that this may indeed follow. Yet, we cannot ignore nor neglect God's express command to us as to how to handle offenses.

Again I think this is why I have found this portion of the teaching to be such a challenge for me. I had always considered the marriage bond and relationship to be above other relationships we have with other believers, and yet it can not be above the Word of God. I know that to be true also.

God bless
mj

Christian married couples are brother and sister. I can even back it up.

in song of solomon, solomon refers to his girl as "sister."