Family?

Greetings
I am trying to better understand some of the many scripture verses on family. A teaching that has been shared with me concerning the “shadow” of family relationships has me wanting to better understand what is a Biblical view of our physical unsaved family and how we should relate to them.
In this teaching I am reading it talks about physical family being a shadow of what God truly intends for us, that being Spiritual family. There is a very huge emphasis placed on the fact that bloodlines do not mean anything and should not be looked at as a reason to have communication with or on going contact with a family member just because they are related to you by blood. I realize this post is long but it would be very helpful to me and I would very much like to know what the Lord puts on the hearts of others on this topic?

Here are some of the verses that are mentioned along with a small portion of the teaching follows:

Mark.10:29-30
Mark.3:33-35
Luke.11:27-28
Luke.9:59-62
Matthew.10:34-38

Jesus CLEARLY redefined “family” for those that have been re-born. Who is your REAL family, if you are truly a christian (birthed now in the Spirit of God)?

Jesus’ view of who our REAL family must be, if we are HIS disciples, and therefore Christians, is pretty radical, isn’t it?(see above verses) But who has the right to argue with Jesus and question His authority or wisdom on the matter? “You didn’t REALLY mean that, did you Jesus?” Our flesh doesn’t like these commands from Jesus very much. And if a regenerate person finds this challenging, what would we expect from a pagan?

What does an unBelieving physical relative generally want, as it relates to their fleshly family? Most all unregenerate “family” members DESPERATELY desire cutesy “family” get togethers, cooing at “grand children” (along with the accordion wallet photos six feet long), giving/trading “gifts,” eating large quantities of food, hollow laughter about carnal subjects, hugs, kisses, and warm fuzzies. They have little else of Real meaning in their lives, and so they must CRAVE physical realm “bonding” as a substitute. They may gossip about, or be angry with one another (other than at holidays), or see massive destructive sin in a “family” member, but it doesn’t matter. The “drug” of “physical family” is so strong that they can still fool themselves into thinking they are “tight knit”—though they have nothing much deeper than shallow surface relationship. Physical family relationship is far inferior to God’s Way, and is simply a penumbra of God’s original intent, not the real thing. Jesus said that only this is REALITY: real relationships with Father and with real Family. And this Family can consist only of those that are born a second time as radical, supernatural, undivided followers of Jesus! Openness, sincerity, integrity, self-sacrifice, love, generosity, forgiveness, loyalty, trust, mutual dependency through thick and thin, the spark of delight and fun all based in the Truths of Jesus lived out together daily, in His Spirit. This is His Plan. Don’t mistake this for the very shallow “shadow” of family relationships, based on “we all have the same hairline and nose and last name,” so we should be “close-knit.” The “physical bloodline family gathered around your dinner table” as an entity complete in itself is not a concept you’ll find in Jesus’ Heart. This is not His Plan, based on His Teachings above, and many others.

Let me repeat a key point here. You must grasp this. Perhaps these “family” members are “churched,” but not truly living for Jesus. By Jesus’ Words, they cannot be saved unless they deny their very selves, take up their crosses daily, and radically follow after Him. Jesus was clear. They cannot be saved, unless they will do this, from the heart, and fall deeply in love with Him (instead of themselves, the world, and the things of this world—such as physical family, jobs, hobbies, etc.). Unless they ARE living for Jesus, heart-soul-mind-and-strength, they are NOT your family. That is IF you believe what Jesus articulated in the Scriptures written above. And if you don’t believe Him and want to live this way, then you should go be with and enjoy the company of, and bond with your unregenerate “family members.” And if you can feel comfortable with them and depend on unbelievers? If you have no deep groaning and difficulty laughing at their jokes? If you can hang out with them during endless carnal or shallow discussions, indulging shamelessly in their pagan feasts and gift giving and “family” bonding parties? If you can, then you should question your own intimacy with God.
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This has me wondering about my relationship with some in my own family because I do check in on my mother and not every conversations is centered on the Lord? Many of them are but there are those that are about her health and well being. The teaching does go on to speak about loving family here is another small portion that speaks to that.
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If you DO grieve deeply for your physical family, you cannot join in the pagan revelry and just be one of them. Of course you care about their well-being very much—primarily spiritually, and then otherwise, but you MUST NOT give them their demanded “drug fix.” You must not just go along with all of the building and bonding they desire, around flesh and blood. You may only build around Spiritual things, if you are a son or daughter of God.

MaryJane

This is a subject that is often on my own mind, as well. My family consists of all professing believers, but they do not seem to have a true relationship with Christ.

Reading your post reminded me of another scripture passage that you did not mention. It is Matthew 15:4-6. This passage seems to encourage us looking out for our parents.

My husband and I have been sharing a good bit lately about how God's Word often will speak from two differant viewpoints on some topics. This is why we need ALL of God's Word, and not just pull out specific passages. When we read ALL of the Word we are able to get the full picture of what God is instructing us.

Jesus is obviously making it clear in the passages you shared that family relationships are not to be a top priority for us. We need to put Him first in our lives. Our strongest relationships are to be with those that have the same passion for following Him that we have.

When I look at passages like Matthew 15:4-6 it is clear that our parents are our responsibility.

How do we reconcile these different messages?

For myself it means to respect my parents and keep in touch with them. Be ready to do anything for them that I am able to do as a service to the Lord as well as to them. I do not tend to share very intimately with them most of the time, because I feel like they cannot relate on a spiritual level. Once in a while the Lord will lead us to share more deeply what God is doing in our lives. We try to keep visits somewhat limited (avoiding all day events), and try to look for opportunities to speak of Christ during these visits. I tend to have very limited contact with my siblings, because Christ did not give direct instruction in looking out for them and respecting them. I do try to be available if they want help with something. I try to view these relationships as a way of reaching out to them, just as I would anyone else that I meat in my daily life that does not have a true relationship with Christ.

I believe we always need to keep all our relationships submitted to Christ. We need to let the Holy Spirit lead us in our contacts with true brothers and sisters in the Lord, as well as our physical family. When the Holy Spirit leads us we may be surprised at how He leads. It may not directly coincide with what is being said in one specific passage in the Bible, but it WILL NOT contradict the Bible as a whole.

Greetings HeedWatchmen

Thank you for sharing this with me. I do keep in touch with my mom often. Her health is not good and she really has a hard time just getting around now. I do try to share the Lord with her but she is a strong RC and there are times when she just does not want to listen.

I should mention that the teaching did address the issue of "honor your mother and father" and that one should care for them, however it also emphasized not giving your affection or heart away to those who are not apart of the body of Christ(Spiritual family) just because of bloodlines and same last names.

I do not have very much contact with my siblings either. None of my brothers are saved and really do not want anything to do with me. One of my sisters keeps in touch but my other sister who is saved only has very limited contact with me. She follows this teaching I was asking about very closely and believes that our sister relationship means nothing because physical family is just a shadow of what God has for us and the fact that we are related by blood means nothing. I do understand some of this but I will admit it has been hard for me at times, I thought we also shared the bond of being sisters in Christ but that does not seem to matter. Lately I have been thinking maybe she does not believe me to be truly saved. I have asked questions on some of the teachings that she has shared...there are many verses that it covers and I have struggled with some of the interpretation that is applied. As I said this teaching does dismiss any importance one might place on physical family as being un-Biblical.

Anyway thank you for responding to me. I do agree we need to keep our relationships submitted to Christ and the Holy Spirit lead us in any and all relationships. I am just trying to look to these things and examine my own heart in light of Gods Word in this.

God Bless
mj

Hi MaryJane, some themes about family and the verses you mentioned were talked about in this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32169&forum=36&9]thread.[/url]

Context is very important to interpreting the verses you've mentioned in order to understand what Jesus was teaching. And other verses, like HeedWatchman mentioned, need to be considered to get the full position of family as taught by the scriptures.

Greetings Giggles

Thanks for the link to the thread. I have spoken with wind_blows(Elizabeth) about this teaching on several occasion. She had some questions about it pertaining to a death of an unsaved family member. I guess I am just trying to understand it more concerning what is to be our Biblical view of physical family.

The teaching itself goes over many verses(all that Jesus spoke to pertaining to physical family) and they speak to how blood relatives hold no special place, that only the family of God matters.

In the other thread you wrote:

So more are included but that doesn't mean your literal family is excluded from your love, devotion, etc.

In the other thread you wrote:

remember the same Jesus cared enough about His physical mother to declare upon the cross: "25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home." Jn. 19:25-27

This is also addressed in the teaching. Here is a small portion on that:
To most who don’t know Jesus and would not accept or do these many things He has said and done regarding physical family, this is REALLY weird. After all, Jesus had physical brothers (James, Joseph, Simon and Judas, and sisters) that He TOTALLY usurped, taking away their physical mother! Jesus gave his mother Mary to a NON-relative, while his biological siblings and her very children were still alive and in their twenties and thirties! Jesus did the unthinkable, and Mary agreed and went! JESUS ONLY SAW SPIRITUAL FAMILY, just as He said again and again and again.
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I guess I thought that some of this teaching to be a bit harsh in its interpretation of these passages but maybe I have been wrong about this. There is still much I need to die to and maybe these are things I have not wanted to see?

God Bless
mj

MaryJane, how to relate to our physical family, especially those who are not walking with the LORD poses a lot of challenging questions.

MaryJane, I wrote a lot then deleted it and somehow I sense that this question will have no easy answers....unless it is that we are making something so simple too difficult. The reality is that the children I birthed I want to see, love and care for, even after they reach adulthood. The ones that are not walking with the LORD grieve me and in this God teaches me also. How we relate to our unsaved family members teaches one a lot about how God relates to his creation.

One of the worst things a person can do is act like a snob to our family members and what kind of witness is that?

Yet, if family members indulge in excess, in sin, one will have to separate himself from such evil influences lest you get suckered into that whorl of evil. The devil will use anything to draw you away from God.

MaryJane, you will have to depend on the still small voice of the Holy Spirit to give you guidance. The situations may vary and there may be no one set rule for all time.

My understanding and I can relate, BTW...

ginnyrose

Greetings Ginnyrose

Thanks for sharing with me. You are right, knowing how to share and care for those who are not saved in our physical family can be very challenging. I think that I will continue to pray and seek God on this and just walk as He leads me.

God Bless
mj

Hi MaryJane, sorry I posted a long one here. I felt the need to attempt to address this teaching, as I don't agree with the way it's presented and what it implies. If the goal is to stress the spiritual family, there are better ways of doing it I think (like going into Ephesians 4 and 5, etc) than trying to destroy the physical family and thereby have only the spiritual to hold on to. The portions you have quoted do not sit rightwith my spirit; they seem to be written in an aggressive, demeaning tone. Also the whole premise this teaching is built upon seems a bit shoddy.

For one, to base a teaching selectively out of a portion of scripture, with neglect to what the rest has to say, is not true to the revealed counsel of God. There is no canon within the canon. So not to minimize the words of Christ in any way, but they are in no way superior to the words of Paul or Moses or David. Christ is the Incarnation of the full Word of God, not a specific, limited portion.

Also, the use of the passages you listed in the OP are not entirely fair to their contexts, as I mentioned earlier.

In Mark.10:29-30, Jesus is not saying that leaving family is a pre-requisite for following Him. This passage follows after the rich, young ruler story. Christ is making it clear that anyone who sells all (in the context of riches) for His name will by no means lose out in the end. And to make the point clear, He lists about everything a man could leave...including wife and children. That right there should prove that Jesus isn't literally teaching to leave your family (parents, sibblings, etc.) because God does not condone divorce and child abandonment let alone make it a condition for coming to Him.

Mark.3:33-35 and Luke.11:27-28 aren't necessarily negating physical relationships, but rather teaching spiritual kinship supercedes them.

Taylor exegeted Luke.9:59-62 pretty well in the other thread, saying this man was after the man was after inheritance. I would also not these two are found in a succession of three scenarios, not by themselves. I think the point (as mentioned in the other thread) is that Jesus is looking for total allegiance to Him, full surrender, for Him to be first priority. It's the heart. These aren't specific commands to follow or ethics to uphold. It's about posturing and positioning the heart correctly. One could ascertain this from many of Jesus' teachings that there is spiritual truth to be discerned not literal i.e. eating His flesh, drinking His blood, taking up your cross, cutting off your hand, plucking out your eye, etc. He is concerned with the heart, not outward mutilation, adherence, and aestheticism. We know the flesh profits nothing (Jn. 6:63).

Matthew.10:34-38 interprets itself. Verse 37 is the key: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Not don't love them, just not more than Jesus.

As for the John 19:26-27, I guess I just disagree with their interpretation of the passage. I looked in about 10 commentaries (which while not establishing a dogmatic conclusion to a verse's meaning, does give a good feel of where historical Chrstianity has landed) and none interpreted the verse as they did. All said it showed Christ's concern for His physical mother and His selflessness even on the cross, preferring others to Himself.

Also, as mentioned, what does the rest of the Word of God say as to family importance?

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Also, God has put us in ungodly families to see their conversions often:

Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Also Acts 10, the house of Cornelius.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy

1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Again sorry for the long post. Just be careful with that teaching, weigh it against the full counsel of God, and pray about it.

Greetings Giggles

Do not be sorry for the long post, I was grateful to read through it. I have been praying about this and as I shared with ginnyrose, I will continue to pray about this. Having all the verses to references does help me also.

You wrote:

As for the John 19:26-27, I guess I just disagree with their interpretation of the passage.

Thank you for sharing this.

God Bless
mj

Giggles, I appreciate your exposition on the scriptures you posted. The bottom line is that what we think must be shaped by what the WORD has to say on the subject. Doing so will teach us much more then if we were to totally rely on logic.

I also agree with the idea that the original post raised red flags in my spirit. The WORD often times uses the terms connect to family as metaphors to teach another principle. If people were ignorant of these meanings then the teachings would be meaningless because they could not be understood.

Another insightful principle is shared in Luke 1:17: the symptom of a person turning to God is when the Father's heart it turned toward the children. How many dads today ignore their children? Too many have abandon their families and so do many moms. Sad.

On the personal level I do find it very difficult to socialize with family members who have apostasized. So many of my husbands' extended family have left the faith - so how does one relate to them? Obviously, we're among the most conservative Christians in this bunch. My husband does not seem to mind - he has a lot of fond memories
of these cousins that reach way back to childhood. I don't. Their mindset is so very different, their priorities are different, we have very little in common and so these subjects are soon exhausted, so how do I visit with them in a beneficial way? A young woman challenged me on the existence of absolutes at one reunion; at a funeral one cousin's wife took me to task for my obedience to 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. ...and so it goes. Actually, I do not encourage our children to attend these reunions because so many opportunities for offenses exist there. What is a Believer to do? You be courteous, and kind always, but it is very taxing to work to find a common interest in which our worldview will not conflict.

In discussing this kind of situation with others, I am finding this to be a growing phenomenon. Adultery, shacking, drugs use - including alcohol, illegitimacy, immodesty are participated in with no shame. Some, have for the sake of their children, limited their socializing with these family members. When this becomes the case, one must look for a brotherhood of Believers who can and will fill in the gap. We need a brotherhood of Believers that we can relate to who will be there when things get rough besides the times when they are good.

MJ, you PM'd the details about your situation. Please allow me to say this. Back in 1970 the rest of my immediate family changed churches. The one they went to was more conservative and they had all the answers: families stayed in the church - there were few children who left it for another one, so this was one which will succeed in evangelizing their young. Fast forward to 2010: Of the 17 grandchildren there are 9 who are not in any church, some involved in shacking, drug use or just plain indifferent; one marriage on the rocks...In between times I respected their consciences prohibiting whatever but still maintained a friendly relationship. I lived and assumed they knew the LORD. The difference is that now they respect us, our opinions...and agree one does not have to be a member of their church to know the LORD.

Yes, families can throw you lots of challenges but to abandon it, to cut ties because of some trivial disagreements is not godly, either. The idea of family comes from the heart of God - it is not a perversion introduced by the Enemy. And how we maintain a godly family becomes a challenge, no doubt.

Sorry for the long post...hope there will be something here that can help someone....and if I am wrong, I stand to be corrected.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I was just listening to this sermon and thought of this thread . . .

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3330&commentView=itemComments]Sons and Daughters of God by Art Katz[/url]

Great insights on bring up the Luke 1 passage ginnyrose. That verse alone almost sums it up best. The Malachi parallel paints it very soberly and solemnly as to the importance of the fathers and sons turning to each other:

Mal. 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Definitely important.

Again MaryJane, I don't think anyone is giving you specific counsel on how to handle your situation. You will have to test all things and rightly apply the word and Spirit's leading to your situation. All these posts are just great helps from which to be able to prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God bless you and the posters of this thread!

Hi GinnyRose
You are absolutely right that to cut ties and abandon family is not right. I absolutely agree that the family is from the heart of God Himself and is an essential building block to a stable society.

In my grandparents day people newly converted were encouraged to distance themselves from unsaved family, as they were of the world, this deeply saddens me and I say 'how can you then be salt and light to them'?

It was a challenge when I met my husband as he was the only Christian in his family and I was brought up in a very devout and strong Christian family with relatives who are Pastors, teachers and missionaries.

My hubby's father, now deceased, was a jailbird who we only saw whenever he had a new woman to show off.
His mother who had been through so much heartache was so bitter and anti-God that she did everything she could to put me off her son and discourage our relationship, as she saw me as a 'Bible basher' with, even worse in her eyes, a preacher father!

Even though she did show kindness by catering for our reception, she rowed with my hubby on our wedding day, telling him if he walked out of that door to marry me it would be the last time he would ever be in her house! Needless to say that threat never stopped him!

His mother's face during our wedding was a picture of sourness that we see to this day on the DVD!
Yet after the reception she hugged me sobbing on my shoulder.

She was very stiff with me at first but as she got to know me and we built a deeper relationship, she began to soften.
I have spent time alone with her but will never push my beliefs, yet sometimes she now turns the conversation towards God, our Church and ask my opinion on issues.
I have always been open and honest and also listened to her point of view.
Knowing that I will not be heavy with her has now given her openness to talk and when she can't handle anymore she will then start accusing me of being a God botherer and preaching at her - even though she is the one to start the conversations!
I know then it's time to say no more.

I have built an excellent relationship with his sisters and also the extended family, all of whom, even though they may have a laugh and a dig occasionally, respect our Christianity and we don't take offence at their teasing.
I have witnessed such a softening in their attitudes over our 24 years of marriage and we are the first port of call in crisis for them.

Two years ago, God started to right the wrongs in my life and told me most clearly that I had to break my silence about my teenage years suffering abuse.
I then had to share with my mother in law what was happening in my life because of the police investigation that had started.
To my utmost delight, I was stunned when she said to me "I know it's only your faith that has made you the woman you are today, for you are so different to the victims of abuse that I work with!" She then started to open up further with me and share her hurts and disappointments in life.

It would have been so easy to just stick with my side of the family, but if I can't make the effort to build relationships and reach my unsaved family then who can!
I believe God has placed us within our family units, and it's all for a purpose.

My husband has benefited greatly in his faith through marrying into my family and the positive impact my family has had on him. He tells me that my parents have been a true mam and dad to him. Yet, I can honestly say that I too have benefited and have been challenged and strengthened by marrying into his family.

I know we have Christian brothers and sisters and that is great, but even they come and go - in and out of our lives. Life is fluid, constantly on the move, friendships come and go - but blood ties are always there, we are to be witnesses at home first!

Greetings

Thank you Ceri for sharing what the Lord has placed on your heart concerning your family.

Thank you Heartsong for posting the teaching on family by Art Katz. I am listening to it now and have found it to be very uplifting.

I also just wanted to say thank you to both Ginnyrose and Giggles. You have been very kind and supportive as I try to make my way through this teaching and come to understand what the Lord has for me where my sister is concerned.

God Bless
mj

You're welcome MaryJane. You're a blesing! May God bless you and see you through this.

Good posts by everyone too!

Ceri, I am speechless, filled with awe with your testimony!

Yes, God gave us families. If they are godly, consider yourself doubly blessed. If not, God still gave them to you for a purpose and it is up to us to allow God to use them to knock the rough edges off of our personalities and shape us into vessels he can use.

As I look back on my upbringing, there are many blessings and there are some unfortunate things and it is these tragic things that God has used to destroy pride, arrogance and who knows what all.

God is good - all the time!

Thanks MaryJane and all the others who posted here - such a wonderful blessing to read all these posts!

ginnyrose