Sin vs Man or Man = Sin ?

Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.

The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.

So the question must be answered, is sin just a part of man, or is man so full of sin, and immersed in it, that the two cannot be objectively separated into differing categories.

What does it mean to be human?

To have thinking capacities which allows the ability to choose.

But, since birth, all of our choices are guided within the paradigm of selfishness.

Selfishness, pride; the concept that we are the centers of the universe, our happiness at the expense of all other things.

Thus, from birth, we are deceived into believing that we are free from determinism... yet this turns out to merely be a cruel twist of fate... and we find ourselves free within the prison of bondage to selfish desire.

Therefore, man is born in sin, dead to God, loving self, hating God... the statement, choose to have faith in Christ is a worthless statement, a waste of breath. A person can no more choose to have faith in God, than a blind person can choose to begin to see.

Grace is the gift of God to man, God granting us the sight to see that He is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable. Grace is the state in which we begin to live for the single purpose of the supremacy of the glory of God, through Christ our savior, revealed to us in the Word of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

God, I need grace.

Maybe I can help you understand what it is you are going through.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

The purpose of chastening is NEVER punishment for wrong done. That is coming in the day of the Lord when the world will be judged. We who are His children will NOT be judged in that day because we have received the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Chastening is for the purpose of changing us into His image from glory to glory. Read these verses carefully. He chastens us through His word. He reveals to us those things that He desires to change in us by showing them to us in the mirror of His word.

When you were born again, it was your spirit that was actually born again. See John chap. 3. Your flesh was not. So, although you became a new creature and were created in righteousness and true holiness, it was your spirit that was perfected forever. (You can find these scriptures in Hebrews) There was still a lot of changing to be done due to the fact that you are human. Remember that Paul told us we were to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Now God could not show you everything at once. I believe it would almost kill us to have all of the things God wants to change in us revealed all at once. But He will chasten or correct you by revealing to you what is really in your heart and ask you to surrender that to Him for Him to change.

I speak from experience here. The closer you draw to God and the further along you get, the deeper the issues He will reveal and ask you to bring to Him to deal with. It is a lot like an onion. When one layer is pealed off, underneath lies a deeper layer to be taken away. God will allow you to see areas of your heart the way He sees them. Don't lose heart or allow yourself to be condemned. Recognize that God is revealing a core issue. Praise Him for that, and do business with God over the thing. It is an act of His grace toward you that He reveals these things and deals with them. I can recall having a bondage in my life that I struggled with. God revealed the core issue to me and began to deal with it. I spent time with trusted leaders who loved me and had great spiritual maturity. They ministered to me and prayed with me. I spent time with God in repentance and receiving healing. These deeper issues are often what leads us into the more visible issues anyway. God still is progressively opening my eyes to the things He wants to correct in my life. I am so thankful for it and recognize a loving Father who wants to change me into His image.

To say, "I am bad. I am a worm. I am so evil. ..." is to speak contrary to what the word of God says about you if you are born again. The word says you are a saint. It says that you have been made the righteousness of God through Christ. That does not mean you are claiming perfection in your flesh. It means you are saying about yourself the things that God says of you. It is an agreement with the Word of God about who you have become in your spirit. But God has a lot of revealing to do in you about just how unregenerate your flesh really is and about how He longs to transform you that you might bear much fruit for His kingdom.

Hope that helps.

Travis

You may find some comfort in Romans Ch 7.
Even the apostle Paul despaired when his
selfish desires and wants got in the way of
serving GOD. The only thing for us is to
cast our hearts and lives upon the mercies
of GOD and trust in the work of the cross
to save us to the uttermost!!

IWantAnguish said:
Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.
The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.
Everything I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.
And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.

However, IF you are not able to, then your inability would exempt you from the obligation.
Therefore, since we all are under obligation you are truly able to NOT be selfish & have the correct intentions in all things.

Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:18).
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (Rom 6:22).

What does it mean to be human?
To have thinking capacities which allows the ability to choose.
But, since birth, all of our choices are guided within the paradigm of selfishness.

Selfishness, pride; the concept that we are the centers of the universe, our happiness at the expense of all other things.

Furthermore, there is no "pride" in newborns.

Thus, from birth, we are deceived into believing that we are free from determinism... yet this turns out to merely be a cruel twist of fate... and we find ourselves free within the prison of bondage to selfish desire.

Furthermore, as we mature, we become to comprehend the world around us and the people in it. As we mature, we understand that we are not the center of the world and start to form (emotional) relationships with others.
As these relationships strengthen, the more selfless we may become towards them.

Since we are moral beings, we come to understand that even the people we do not know are worthy of respect (Rom 2:14-15).
However, we are able to choose contrary to our conscience and remain selfish to decide not to give others the respect they are due, being selfish.

Therefore, man is born in sin, dead to God, loving self, hating God...

the statement, choose to have faith in Christ is a worthless statement, a waste of breath.

A person can no more choose to have faith in God, than a blind person can choose to begin to see.

No one is condemned because of an inability. All mankind are condemned because they are able, but WILL NOT.
Without ability, there is no culpability.

Grace is the gift of God to man

God granting us the sight to see that He is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.

However, it is self-evident that God is above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.
All men are able to see God & recognize Him with these attributes if they so choose to believe.

However, they do not see God as these because the WILL not believe (suppressing the truth in unrighteousness), therefore, the god of this age has blinded their minds (2Corinth 4:4) so they do not see God as above all things, glorious, marvelous, beautiful, and desirable.

Grace is the state in which we begin to live for the single purpose of the supremacy of the glory of God, through Christ our savior, revealed to us in the Word of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Dude, you don't know what I'm going through.

I could sit here and argue with your theology, but I'm really not in the mood for it.

"Brother, you're not being Christ-like."

Yeah, I know, but I'd rather be honest, opposed to superficially giving a hypocritical, politically correct reply.

I appreciate the living Word in you dear "IWantAnguish." I have found, in John, what you describe was also the experience of the disciples as they followed Jesus. Our personal relationship (the reality) is deeply related to transparent honesty. I recall Jesus' honesty with His Father in prayer at Gethsemane.

I lost the reference as to who wrote/said this but thought you might appreciate this.

"But ... who said there was going to be an oral exam on Judgment Day? From what I read in Scripture, Judgment Day will be based on the reality of my life here on earth. On that day, it will be revealed whether I lived my life by grace through faith, or not. Quoting a creed or a theological doctrine will be irrelevant."

It sounds a bit like Ravenhill who also said, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument."

oops.
double post

IWantAnguish said:
Dude, you don't know what I'm going through.

However, your sounding like you can't help having wrong motives, thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

Don't you know that if you can't help it, your not accountable to it?
How do you repent of something you have no control over?

The answer is that you can't, therefore, your NOT culpable.

However, if you truly are accountable & culpable, then you must have control over wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself.

Which is it?
do you have control or not?
Let be honest here.

I could sit here and argue with your theology, but I'm really not in the mood for it.

How do you change something that you can't control?
Truth is that you can't.

Now, if you can't help it, then why are you fealing so guilty?

Sin must be repentable.
Sin must be controlable in order to repent.
If you have no control of it, then you can't repent.
If you can't repent, then it is not sin.

This is only commone sence. I'm not trying to be theological, but to help you not be so self condemning.

So, now let's get honest with ourselves.
Are you able to control this issue, or not?

When Satan and 1/3 of the angels of heaven sinned against God...

Why didn't God offer them a savior?

Is it because they were unable to show remorse for their sin, that God refused to send them a savior?

Or was it because God refused to give them the grace to be able to turn in repentance towards God?

You see, my self, the thinking me, my conscious self, really would like to place the blame of my predicament upon God... rather than myself.

Ultimately, I'm left with a Job dilemma.

I'm left with my arguments thrown back into my face, and God still being God; thus, who am I to argue with His perfect sovereign grace?

But... I'm still in the developing stages of the trial; yet to realize the hand of God in all things.

I'm sure that when revelation breaks through these clay shuttered doors, I won't feel so lifeless.

At least God's given me the faith to believe in that truth.

Bro, I would like to see through the lens of which you're prescribing to me, but that's comparable to telling a short person to be taller.

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.

If I am mistaken in this whole matter, I do pray that God would enlighten me and allow me to no longer walk in darkness, but in the light of His truth.

brother, i would like to give you these sermons, if you follow the link there is a transcription also, in dark seasons these have helped me, one off them so much i once felt i would have fallen away completely, but this helped me so much. Dont know if it will have such an effect on you. But i pray you will get some light in your circumstance and God would speak to you.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19453&forum=34&2]Let us go on[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19494&forum=34&6]a living personal reality[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19506&forum=34&1]He ever liveth[/url]

God bless you brother

IWantAnguish aksed:
When Satan and 1/3 of the angels of heaven sinned against God...

Why didn't God offer them a savior?

Is it because they were unable to show remorse for their sin, that God refused to send them a savior?

Or was it because God refused to give them the grace to be able to turn in repentance towards God?

Also, the angels are not created in God's image, after His likeness as we are.
God offers Mankind redemption to untarnish HIS likeness & image.

They are fully responsible for their own sin. It has nothing to do with God on His part.
God had done all He could to provide an environment for them so that they would not sin.
But, what does it say?
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was FOUND in you (Eze 28:15)
God did not create Lucifer imperfect, or with a “sees” of sin that it might come out, but sin was found in him.
Lucifer is TOTALLY at fault as we are.

Anyway, how does this relate to the subject at hand?

You see, myself, the thinking me, my conscious self, really would like to place the blame of my predicament upon God... rather than myself.

That is the first step in VICTORY!!!
The next part is finding HOW to control this and stop it completely.

Ultimately, I'm left with a Job dilemma.
I'm left with my arguments thrown back into my face, and God still being God; thus, who am I to argue with His perfect sovereign grace?
But... I'm still in the developing stages of the trial; yet to realize the hand of God in all things.

I'm sure that when revelation breaks through these clay shuttered doors, I won't feel so lifeless.

At least God's given me the faith to believe in that truth.

However, if you are sinning, then you are not in a trial; you being convicted of sin is not trial either.
Trials are from circumstances outside of your control which adversely affect you.
You might call what you're going through as being chastened, but it is not a trial.

God disciplines us for our good, that we may be partakers of His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness (Hebrews 12:10-11).

Anyway, All I want to do is help you get the victory over this issue.

Bro, I would like to see through the lens of which you're prescribing to me, but that's comparable to telling a short person to be taller.

We are both able to have victory over sin.
The first step is taking responsibility of our own sin, by accepting the fact that we have control over it.

Are you praying that God make all this you’re dealing with to disappear?
The problem with that is God does not necessarily want to take you out of the battle (make it disappear), but lead you through it in Victory.

Therefore, according as His divine power, He has given to us all things that pertain unto life and GODLINENESS, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue:
By which are given to us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakes of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Peter 1:3-4).

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.
If I am mistaken in this whole matter, I do pray that God would enlighten me and allow me to no longer walk in darkness, but in the light of His truth.

Let's use an analogy:
Say that having no oil in your vessel is a sin. The reason is that you will not be able to see.

You don't want to run out of oil and you didn't intend to do so either, however, you did neglect to fill your vessel up when it began to flicker.

Now say that you did not intentionally NOT fill your vessel up with oil, so the reason that you ran out of oil must be that you got distracted and it became too late for you to fill your vessel up and you ran out of oil.

Now, it would seem that you had no control over your vessel running out of oil. But in reality, you did.
You should have kept clear of distractions which caused you to ignore the flickering flame which you neglected as you ran out of oil.

Let’s put this to your predicament.
Wrong motives and thoughts & attempting to deceive yourself is sinful (running out of oil).
However you don't want to sin, you don't want to run out of oil, but you do, therefore, the question comes as:
How am I in control, at fault & culpable to that which I don't want to do but do (you don't want to sin, but you still do)?
Or
What is the leading cause of this sinfulness if it isn't your own choice?

There is a system of thoughts, my worldview, which has been formed through listening, and reading... HOPEFULLY in proper accordance to the Word of God.

The reason is most likely neglect of something which is the root cause of your sin.

What is your attitude when you see yourself as selfish & self deceptive?

Where is our mind as you see yourself as such?

Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.

The depths of my self-deception regarding my motives and thoughts is beyond repair.

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad (of course in comparative relation to others), except for the Word of God which exposes my hypocrisy and wickedness.

Despondent because you can't see the way and you think you are beyond repair but I think you are in a good place you are seeing the reality of the heart, I see it as God is opening up your eyes to see your own condition and the need for God to do a deeper work in you.

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

This is the man who in Job 1:1 was declared to be perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Although Job was delared to be perfect and upright we find out later that there was still a work to done because his heart was not pure and because is heart was not pure he could not see God.

What does scripture say Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God..

My friend you have been justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ but find that SIN still remains within.

I say SIN and not sins there is a difference SIN is what caused us to commit sins. When you where justified your sins where forgiven but SIN was not dealt with....

There needs to be in your life a deeper work of the Spirit that deals with the SIN..

The Sinful Nature Must Be Cleansed your heart needs to be pure. This second work of grace through faith is known as sanctification. It is necessary because of the two fold nature of sin. It is not enough to be forgiven for sins committed in the past; it is also necessary that SIN, the extreme hostility to God which prompted the sins, be cleansed.

Edit:- Spelling mistakes

murrcolr said:
My friend you have been justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ but find that SIN still remains within.
I say SIN and not sins there is a difference SIN is what caused us to commit sins. When you were justified, your sins where forgiven but SIN was not dealt with....

The "SIN" which "caused us to commit sins" is not really "SIN" as you call it.
Paul calls it our flesh.

murrcolr said:
It is not enough to be forgiven for sins committed in the past; it is also necessary that SIN, the extreme hostility to God which prompted the sins, be cleansed.

That which prompted the specific sins which IWantAnguish told us about (selfishness - Gal 5:20) comes from a neglect of submission to walking in the spirit, not from this so called "sin nature".

Here is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation:

For if you walk in the Spirit, you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal 5:16-18)

The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (Rom 8:4-5).
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you (Rom 8:9a).
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness (Rom 8:10).

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also bring to life your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you (Rom 8:11).

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live (Rom 8:12-13).

It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case.
He has shown to love God & hate sin. There is no "extreme hostility to God" with IWantAnguish. However, the MIND of the FLESH or the "mind set" of the flesh is enmity/HOSTILE towards God

My friend it's extreme hostility to God in every case in every single person........Any way what do you know.

It all very well quoting scripture from Roms 8 and saying "this is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation"

That's not the answer the answer is in Romans chapter 7

After conversion a man begins to do his best, and he fails. God allows that failure that the regenerate man should be taught his own utter impotence. It is in the course of this struggle that there comes to us this sense of our utter sinfulness.

IwantAnguish is beginning to see the Utter sinfulness in himself....

Every thing I do ultimately contains a selfish motive driving the action, beginning from my inner-self, the thought beneath the action.

And not only am I selfish, but I attempt to deceive myself through rationalizing my intent; and I would succeed into tricking myself into thinking that I am not that bad

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

See what strong words are used all through the Romans chapter 7 to describe this condition: “I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14); “I see another law in my members bringing me into captivity” (Rom. 7:23); and last of all, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24). This believer who bows here in deep contrition is utterly unable to obey the law of God.

It is not I that do it, but I am under the awful power of sin, which is holding me down. It is I, and yet not I: it is myself; so closely am I bound up with it, and so closely is it intertwined with my very nature. Blessed be God when a man learns to say: “O wretched man that I am!” from the depth of his heart.

What did you say again Logic "It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case." [b]You blind fool[/b]

murrcolr said:
It all very well quoting scripture from Roms 8 and saying "this is the answer to all IWantAnguish's vexation"
That's not the answer the answer is in Romans chapter 7

After conversion a man begins to do his best, and he fails.

How is there victory if failure is inevitable?

God allows that failure that the regenerate man should be taught his own utter impotence.

It is in the course of this struggle that there comes to us this sense of our utter sinfulness.

I am sure that IWantAnguish is saved, this is why He hates the sin which he described.
He already saw is "utter sinfulness" before he was saved.
Now as he has repented, he should no longer be sinful.

But there remains some sins which he must conquer through obedience.

IwantAnguish is beginning to see the Utter sinfulness in himself....

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

We are not "utterly helpless to obey His law". The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4).

See what strong words are used all through the Romans chapter 7 to describe this condition: “I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14); “I see another law in my members bringing me into captivity” (Rom. 7:23)

“I am carnal, sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14)
Christians are not carnal, nor are we "sold under sin" anymore (Rom 6:16-20).

But I see another law in my "members", warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the LAW OF SIN which is in my "members". (Rom. 7:23)

The “law of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

The “law of sin” includes the INABILITY OF THE FLESH to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

and last of all, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24). This believer who bows here in deep contrition is utterly unable to obey the law of God.Why can't we obey the law?
What's stopping us?
Why are you claiming that we (especially as Christians) can NOT obey God and Love Him (John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, 1Johh 5:2, 1Johh 5:3, 2Johh 1:6)?

What did you say again Logic "It's not an "extreme hostility to God" in this case." You blind fool

We are to have victory in Christ over sin.

Dear Brother Colin,

Those are some rather strong and dangerous words there friend, regardless of your viewpoint... and totally unnecessary... Matthew 5:22

Clint

Those are some rather strong and dangerous words there friend, regardless of your viewpoint... and totally unnecessary

In the heat of these discussions, please try to remember common forum etiquette. Namely, [i]"Play the ball and not the man."[/i] Everyone is granted the opportunity on SermonIndex to express his/her views without fear of ad hominem attacks.

Let's be an example to other believers!

Brother Paul

Quote:

IWantAnguish it is God’s way of dealing with us. He allows us to strive to fulfill the law that, as we strive and wrestle, you be brought to this: “I am a regenerate child of God, but I am utterly helpless to obey His law.

Don't give him a defeatist attitude.
He wants victory over this sin.

There is nothing deafeatist the only way to victory is death to self as we will never get victory over sin in our own strength...we should never endeavour to overcome sin and be holy through their own exertion-------through doing our best.

As our best will always end it failure........

You must come to understand what it means to say, "In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18)

This evidentially describes a pre-salvation experience of Paul

The struggle here in Romans 7 is with a Christian Conscience, i.e an awakened conscience, a renewed heart, that understands the righteousness of God.

Paul in his unconverted Jewish state would have had no struggle because he assumed he was keeping the law. A pagan on the other had would not have a conscience of sin because he would have no sense of why his actions would be wrong.

The very fact that you are wrestling with sin is one of the signs of the new birth.

Why can't we obey the law? What's stopping us?

For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 we need to put off the old man and put on the new man Ephesians 4:22-24

Why are you claiming that we (especially as Christians) can NOT obey God and Love Him

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:22-23

I am claiming that we cannot obey God in our own strengh.

We are to have victory in Christ over sin

Do YOU see any signs of the Victorious Life in the majority of professing Christians? I merely ask the question. In how many do you see Victory over so-called RESPECTABLE sins? -- bad temper, irritability, pride, jealousy, backbiting, unlove, ANXIETY?

murrcolr said:
we should never endeavour to overcome sin and be holy through their own exertion-------through doing our best.

Our best is our duty.

As our best will always end it failure........

You must come to understand what it means to say, "In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18)

Paul [b]doesn't know how to do good[/b] because he doesn't see any alternate action in view.

He does not have anything else to put his affection on in order for him to stop sinning, except for the ones he has already grown accustom to ( which are the sinful ones).

He doesn't have any alternative pleasure other than that which he has already been taking pleasure in for him to stop.
The law telling him that he must stop is not enough; so he willfully continues to follow after the flesh's affections, which he knows is unlawful, being condemned.
The law is not enough for one to stop sinning; it only tells you that you should stop and not [b]how[/b] you should.

The struggle here in Romans 7 is with a Christian Conscience, i.e an awakened conscience, a renewed heart, that understands the righteousness of God.

Paul in his unconverted Jewish state would have had no struggle because he assumed he was keeping the law. A pagan on the other had would not have a conscience of sin because he would have no sense of why his actions would be wrong.

Paul as an unconverted Jew, on the other hand, did not know coveting was wrong until he had read the comandment, "You shall not covet." (Rom 7:7)
Now lawlessness took its start through the commandment, and from the commandment, it brought revealed in him all that were truly unlawful desires (Rom 7:8).

And Paul was (really spiritually) alive when he didn't know the commandments of the law, but when he heard of that specific commandment ("You shall not covet." v.7), then his affections became known as unlawful, and he died spiritually (because he kept doing that which I had affection toward).(Rom 7:9)

And the specific commandments which were to give (eternal) life, he found them to be the death of him (because he kept willfully choosing to do that which the law tells him not to do).(Rom 7:10)

Because as lawlessness took its start through the commandment, it deceived him (by making him think that his desires were lawful before he knew the law), and by those commandments, made him die spiritually.
Because he still chose to give in to those unlawful desires after learning they wrong (Rom 7:11).

The very fact that you are wrestling with sin is one of the signs of the new birth.

The diference is that wrestling with sin implies that we are IN SIN (actually sinning) and are fighting to stop.

Wrestling with temptation is that we are not IN SIN but we are tempted to sin.

However, when we as a christian is sinning, all we must do is repent (stop sinning).
There shouldn't be any struggle to stop sinning; if there is, you realy have a problem.

The "new birth" would have proofs of no sin, not stuggles to stop sinning.

For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18 we need to put off the old man and put on the new man Ephesians 4:22-24

Our soul that was ruled by the flesh & its passions was crucified with Him, that the (whole) body of those passions might be nullified, so that we no longer serve those passions.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:22-23
I am claiming that we cannot obey God in our own strengh.

Are you implying that we can't just choose to obey as we should?
Are you implying that we can't just choose to repent as we should?
Are you implying that we can't just choose to love God as we should?

Are you implying that we can't just choose to walk in the spirit so to not fullfill the lust of the flesh as we should?

It seems that you equate the Christian with the unsaved in things pertaning to sin.
Why is that?