Today's Rome

"The first three centuries of the church's history prove that no eartly power can crush it. It is invincible to attacks from without. The witnesses of its suferings and even its persecutors, become its converts and it grows more rapidly than it can be destroyed. The following period of nearly two hundred years shows that the union of the Church and the State, even when the powers of the mightiest Empire are put into the Church's hands , do not enable her to save the State from destruction, for, in abandoning the position which her very name implies, of being "called out" of the world and of seperation to Christ, she loses the power that comes from subjection to her Lord , exchanging it for an earthly authority that is fatal to herself." (The Pilgrim Church, page 51)

I believe many "Christians," pursue that very position today and to the extent that they achieve this marriage with the State they fatally weaken the Church...........brother Frank

Quote

"We are strangers and sojourners here "

Amen sister, yes we are..............brother Frank

It would appear to be so but it is not, for that which is perceived to be the "CHURCH", is not really the church at all. The Divine Church is birthed in Heaven, and is manifested upon Earth, often born in stables. She is immortal, and indestructible.

It is impossible that she would ever be fatally weakened.

The Apostate church; the backsliding and backslidden Laodicean type of church, that has spiritually embraced the union of church and state, may indeed be "fatally weakened", or are simply manifested as being separated from Christ.
Appolus wrote:

...................for, in abandoning the position which her very name implies, of being "called out" of the world and of separation to Christ, she loses the power that comes from subjection to her Lord , exchanging it for an earthly authority that is fatal to herself." (The Pilgrim Church, page 51)

I believe many "Christians," pursue that very position today and to the extent that they achieve this marriage with the State they fatally weaken the Church...........brother Frank

They fatally weaken their own souls, for sure, and had better heed the clarion call by our Lord Himself to
"COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!"

I appreciate the tenor of your statement, though, brother Frank. We are not "Tea Party" Christians, nor Conservative Christians , or Democratic Christians.

MORALITY AND RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL NEVER BE LEGISLATED!

Our allegiance is directed to the Throne of God, and it is there and there only that our authority is derived. The sadder reality is that we have incorporated the American Dream into our Theology. The vast wealth that we enjoy as common citizens, and liberties and well being... [ THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS AFTER ALL...] have warped the idea that we are tandem with our "Christian" government, and have been seduced by her entitlements.

Before it is all over, the American government will fail us, either by it's fall, or it's direct confrontation of the holy church, for it in itself, is by Nature the enemy of Christ and all of His.

Our citizenship is in Heaven and we are called to be ambassadors thereof.
Acts 4

18.Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19. But Peter and John replied,

"Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

Can we?

The true church in America has been silent about the murder of the innocent unborn, the attack on the family via sodomite encroachment, and gross immorality endorsed through the entertainment industry unto our children, and the selfish murderous harlot church that mimics her that she walks aside with.

But watch her scream like Hades when Socialism rears her ugly head to bring a little more taxes her way, or crimp her style when the cash flow dies down.

Go figure.

Hi Tom,

I agree with much of what you say, I just do not think it is as black and white as you may suggest. Obviously the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true "Church." But what is the true church and does it have visibility? For instance, in the time frame that this was written about, there were "Donatists," who worked within the framework of the "Established," church in order to try and change the church from within. If one looke at todays Evangelical church or the Protestant world, obvioulsy much of it is not true and genuine Christianity. Therefore, people who are today working within the established church tryong to change it, would be akin to Donatists working within the "Catholic Church of the fourth through the seventh centuries. They ultimately failed of course and the Catholic church turned on them. Now, what are the parralles to today's established church, and is there any parrallels? I would argue that there is. Trying to reform an established church that is so intertwined with the world, could very possibly be akin to the Donatists trying to reform the Catholic church.

Even if you had a church full of genuinly regenerated people, it would still face challenges and it could still be weakened, just not fatally......brother Frank

Travis writes........

"What happens when the persecution costs me my physical body? What happens when I am forbidden to own a copy of the Bible and have police breaking into my house to search? What happens when evangelism assures one of jail and tortures? It is in these times that the church has grown the most and has been the most pure in her faith. That time may be coming soon. I am assured that the church will grow stronger and thrive in those times. I am also aware that it will bring a great abandonment of the church by those who have only been in it because it seemed at the time a good thing to do, but who never truly surrendered to Christ."

I think that Travis has caught the point of the portion of the book that I shared.............Frank

Brothertom wrote about the true church:

"But watch her scream like Hades when Socialism rears her ugly head to bring a little more taxes her way, or crimp her style when the cash flow dies down."

.......................

"I must humbly disagree with who is doing the screaming... the true church or the apostate church!! My vote obviously is the apostate church the one screaming.

To me, it's a type of oxymoron to say the Church cannot be weakened and then on the other hand say she screams like hades when her money is involved, it's not logical... just saying."....LYSA

.......................

Lysa: You have taken my words out of context. This is what I wrote:

"The true church in America has been silent about the murder of the innocent unborn, the attack on the family via sodomite encroachment, and gross immorality endorsed through the entertainment industry unto our children, and the selfish murderous harlot church that mimics her that she walks aside with.

But watch her scream like Hades when Socialism rears her ugly head to bring a little more taxes her way, or crimp her style when the cash flow dies down.

Go figure."

"AND THE SELFISH MURDEROUS HARLOT CHURCH THAT MIMICS HER."

I should have worded the separation more, or began another paragraph perhaps. Obviously it is the harlot church that envies money, and not the true church.

AND...Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brothertom wrote:
"MORALITY AND RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL NEVER BE LEGISLATED!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For morality, this is simply not true. Someone's morality is always being legislated. In Clinton's first week as president in 1993, he set the abortion fight back 20 years; he reversed five previous executive orders banning abortion. Someone is always legislating their morality whether we AGREE with or DISAGREE with it." LYSA

...............................

What I'm saying is that morality and righteousness are matters of the heart; the inner man. You cannot externally mandate what is right, or acceptable to people.

This works on all spectrums; each end of the rope. In China, abortion [ murder of the innocent ] is mandated NOW, in some instances. Those that know Christ will not obey, even unto death.. [ China ] As Peter and the Apostles said in Jerusalem..."Is it better to obey God, or obey man, you be the judge!"...[ "but we will obey God.."]

In America, Clinton's reversal of abortion constraints changed nothing. The wicked continued slaughtering their babies for mostly reasons of birth control, and those who held that it is what it is; MURDER, refused to. Probably most if not all of the martyrs chose the Gospel way, whether or not it was legal, and well knew it would cost them their lives. The gospel was outlawed in Rome, as it is quickly becoming so today...[ All communist countries......Most Islamic countries..] eleven of the twelve Apostles were martyred, and john suffered, yet was delivered.

Yet, the true church thrives. All of the laws ever made never changed morality and righteousness.

Romans 2

12."For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13. for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15. in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16. on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

...................................

Morality and righteousness is written on the heart of man, not in their National legal constitutions.

Re:
by appolus on 2010/2/6 10:31:02

Hi Tom,

"I agree with much of what you say, I just do not think it is as black and white as you may suggest. Obviously the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true "Church." .......AND......."But what is the true church and does it have visibility? Even if you had a church full of genuinely regenerated people, it would still face challenges and it could still be weakened, just not fatally......brother Frank.

VERY GOOD POINT AND YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I think of the pristine church of Ephesus , and Paul's famous exhortation to the elders there.

Acts 20

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29."I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

31"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears."

..................

The church is continually being assaulted , and weakened, as was the birth mother of us all; as often the Devil makes genuine headway in weakening her. My point was that she would never be FATALLY weakened, as you mentioned. And your right, some of the church IS visible, or we would not have SI and the regenerated that post here.

Often that which is called the church, is not at all the church, and that she, [ the Holy bride ] is in Heaven, and is sprinkled throughout the earth...with some still in the clutches of Babylon.

We indeed have been weakened, and have failed in so many areas. The Promise is that we will endure, and overcome....thanks, tom.

No doubt that evil breeds evil. I think of Sodom, where evidently the laws were so liberal, that homosexual rape was the order of the day. This is as I see it, the natural progression of secular humanism, and thereby the holy maxim; "The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

It is a principle. when men cast off restraint, wickedness surges in like a flood. Yet, in Sodom, with all of it's super liberal politics, it is said of Lot that he was grieved by their wicked ways. It didn't change his heart, as it did the others. This is what I meant as to righteousness and morality being "matters of the heart."

Laws and society cannot really change that. Men can concede their crowns, but society and laws cannot take them, or effectively change them, unless a man surrenders .

There is also a difference between general permissiveness on a national level, and the individual, obviously. The entire old world was corrupt, even unto the death sentence upon them all. Noah acted by faith, in his heart. He did not concede to the general permissive law of the land.

I think that we entirely agree with one another, and it is a good point that you bring up. Peer pressure is a very, very powerful force that can indeed change our heart if we give into it.

When I think of a great moral society, I think of Victorian Britain. Its leaders and middle and upper-classes were extremly moral backed up by all the laws of the land. Yet the majority of moralists in those days despised what were known as "enthusiasts." They being those who were completly sold out to Jesus as opposed to "Sunday Christians." The struggle, right from the time of the initial quote that started this thread is between those of a transformed life and the religious. One hates the other and makes itself an enemy of the other. The Sunday Christian, the religious, the Christian in name who is entwined in the State, the "Christian," in whom there is no regeneration, yet at the same time may be very moral and law abiding, seeks to legislate that very morality. Is there anything wrong with good moral legislation? Of course not. Better to have that than to have immoral legislation. Will it make the slightest bit of difference to the soul that stands before the Lord in that day to give an account? Will the Lord seek to know if one had led a moral life, or had dwelt in a moral country or had supported moral legislation? If Victorian England was the most moral country on the planet with the most moral legislation and then most of its dwellers went to hell, what was achieved.

It is interesting that William Wilberforce, an "Enthusiast," himself, sought for long years to outlaw slavery. Yet his greatest work may have been "Real Christianity," his great work on the subject of what true Christianity was. In this book he claims that the majority of religious people knew nothing of the new birth as had Whitfield before him. So, even in the great quest of Wilberforce to outlaw slavery, what difference would it make to a freed slave when he stood before God in that day to give an account? The question to the slave or former slave would not have been, "were you a free man on earth?"

Was it a great work of human society? Yes. Was it a great thing that America followed suit some 60 years later? Yes. Yet the question remains for every man, whether free or slave, "Do you know Jesus?" And in conclusion I would say that if laws are to be passed, then better to have good laws than bad, yet it is the much weightier question of the eternal destiny of the soul that the Lords people should be about.

ps This comment was not designed to raise issue of slavery, it was merely used as an analogy. To highlight what is eternal and what is not.

With all respect to ChrisJD,

The quote I started with has notihng to do with American politics. Its about the role of a Christian in society, whether that society was 1800 years ago in Rome, or a 1000 years ago in the dark ages throughout Europe or the time period after the reformation-1500s-1900s. Its an attempt to pull the lense back and see the bigger picture, the eternal value of things and ultimately what is really important.

I would argue that the Lord is at the door, that time is running out for humanity, that the terrible and notable day of the Lord is almost upon us. That should make us focus on what is eternally important. Politics and opinions on it come and go, it is in a constant state of flux as politicians pander to the people and the latest polls, no matter what side of the fence that they are on. What is unchangable is the Word of God and and the end of times. We are like the grass of the field, here today and gone tomorrow. Yet there is an eternity waiting for all of us. It is in that context the original quote was made.........Frank