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Did the Father really turn away?

T
trxx Feb 8, 2010

Did the Father really turn away?

Did the Father turn away from Jesus and so cause Him to cry out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
I remember being somewhat troubled, but not greatly, that Jesus the Son would feel abandoned by the Father. Then one day while praying the thought came to me, quite unsolicited, that there was another reason that Jesus cried out as He did. It was like all of the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle gathered themselves together in my mind to form the picture by themselves.
I remembered that the books of the Psalms were the hymnbooks of the Jewish people. They considered Psalms to be five separate books, not just one. I knew that they knew and had a love for their Scriptures like no one else as they were reared in the Scriptures, committing whole books to memory as children and continuing always to learn as adults. I remembered that Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm that describes very accurately the scene of the crucifixion. It begins, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Then it goes on to illustrate what we know in hindsight as Calvary. It reads

But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him." 11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. 13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

I realized that if I were to begin by quoting the first line of a very popular saying, whether a song or whatever, maybe even a Scripture like John 3:16, known almost universally, and began it by saying, “For God so loved the world…” that most would finish it in their minds at least if not aloud, “that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” The Jewish people knew their Scriptures well enough to complete the rest of the Psalm. They would realize if they had not beforehand that this very Psalm was being fulfilled while they looked on. Surely some would realize also that Jesus must be the Messiah. Even as Psalm 22 ends, “for he has done it” so Jesus’ last words were, “It is finished” or, “It is done.”

Isaiah 53 also speaks of Calvary. Pay particular attention to verse 10.
1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

How could the Father be pleased to crush Him while having to turn His back to Jesus because He could not bear to look on as is commonly taught. God cannot turn His back so as not to see. David knew that there was no place that he could go that God could not see him. Psalm 139 records his thoughts,

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
There is no place that God cannot see so turning His back as it were would make no difference.
I also know from Scripture that God will never forsake me, “He Himself has said, "I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you” (Hebrews 13:5). If He wouldn’t forsake me why would I believe that He would forsake Jesus when He declared that He was well pleased with Him in the Gospels.
I shared my thoughts with others as opportunity arose. I knew that it was different from that which was commonly held to. But it seemed to fit that Jesus would even in death point others to Himself, to the truth. I’m not sure if anyone accepted my understanding or not. I myself was no longer troubled by Jesus words or that God would actually turn His back on His own Son for any reason.
This morning I was to go to a different church than usual because a guest speaker was in town for a seminar that I dearly wanted to attend but was unable to. I could attend the Sunday morning service though that he would be speaking at. As I began to pray this morning I was overwhelmed by the same thoughts. There was no reason from within me that this should be. I had not considered it for some time. But the thoughts were relentless so that I could not focus my prayers on anything else. I asked the Lord if perhaps He would have me to ask the speaker his thoughts on this matter. On the ride to the church I shared my thoughts again with my companion. As the speaker spoke I thought that perhaps I would just email him or share my thoughts with the pastor of the church whom I knew or would send him an email and ask him to forward it to the speaker. He spoke on grace but my ears perked up when he spoke to the thought that God cannot look upon sin. I knew that when he said, God does not recoil when He looks upon sin,” that I would have an introduction to what I wanted to ask of him.
I waited in line to ask him to autograph the book, actually 2 copies, that I had brought. I started to ask him concerning the remark that he had made about God not recoiling at sin when the lady next to me exclaimed that she was going to ask him the same question. I proceeded to share with him that I didn’t think that the Father turned His back on His Son and he, to my surprise, agreed wholeheartedly and said that he would share some Scripture that would support this. I talked of Psalm 22 and he said that he knew exactly where I was going as this was the very Scripture that he was going to share. I could hardly believe that someone was in full agreement with me. He shared that this was a misconception that he is addressing in his talks, that God did not recoil when He looked upon the Son on the cross and He does not recoil at our sin when he looks upon us. I came away from there almost dumfounded. This was for me confirmation that what was revealed to me previously was true. I say revealed because it came from no one else. Now I would not hesitate to share this with others, not that I ever actually hesitated as my friends would tell you. But now I knew that I was not alone with this understanding. I got home and googled, “Did the Father turn His back?” and realized that we were not alone either, that there were many who held the same view. Some pointed out that Jesus always referred to God as the Father not simply as God except for this one time when He quoted the beginning of Psalm 22. It makes perfect sense to me and leaves no questions in my mind why Jesus would cry out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?” It was to point those who looked upon the cross and all that was taking place at Calvary to the truth. It was to point them to Psalm 22.

sermonindex Feb 8, 2010

I heard this same thing taught from the pulpit in Scotland when I visited there in November. I was distrubed by it.......

"How could the Father be pleased to crush Him while having to turn His back to Jesus because He could not bear to look on as is commonly taught."

The crushing came in the looking away. Hell itself is seperation from God. When Jesus took on the sins of the world He became sin for us. Co 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Now, when the Father looks upon us, He sees righteousness, not ours but Jesus. To me, the Father looking away is the very essence of Calvary..........Frank

G
Giggles Feb 8, 2010

I think it's both, not one or the other. He said it to fulfill and point to Psalm 22 but also because the Father did turn away. Forsake means to abandon or desert, and that's what He said. There's no reason to believe it wasn't literal. As appolus quoted, Christ became sin and the Father is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity." - Hab. 1:13

sermonindex Feb 8, 2010

this is very interesting to hear, here was a question i had about the death of Christ, who killed Christ? The gospel is so important to get right. Brother do appreciate the story though, very interesting.

sermonindex Feb 8, 2010

Jesus was like a perfect lamb, without blemish. If our sacrifice on the cross was literally sinful then we are still dead in our sins. God's pure eyes can and did behold a perfect and spotless sacrifice. If God's eyes did not behold our sacrifice then Christ died in vain and we have no reconciliation.

G
Giggles Feb 8, 2010

benjoseph, Christ did not literally become sin. It was imputed to Him. So rather than Him literally become the worst sinner in history, He was instead treated like the worst sinner in all of history.

Remember the story of Isaac carrying the sticks on his back to be killed by his father. It's similar here. The sin or sticks were placed on Christ's shoulders, they were not His own, which God proves by vindicating His Son 3 days after His death by resurrecting Him.

sermonindex Feb 8, 2010

The Sctipture says quite clearly that He who knew no sin was made, by Him(God) to be sin, for us. So He was the spotless Lamb, that is the horror of Calvary, that this perfect God who knew no sin, had never known sin, suffered in our place because of our sin. That is the very heart of the reconcilliation. Again, The Scriptures says(not man trying to figure it out..........

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, My God, why have You forsaken me? Matthew Henry writes of this passage........

" Note, [1.] That our Lord Jesus was, in his sufferings, for a time, forsaken by his Father. So he saith himself, who we are sure was under no mistake concerning his own case."

Jesus only ever spoke truth, Jesus is Truth, no lie or mistake or misconception can fall from His lips. If He said it, then we can be assured, even if we do not fully understand it, that it was as He said........Frank

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

amen giggles i agree and thanks for letting me know about that one. Can anyone answer me did God kill Christ?

G
Giggles Feb 9, 2010

Good question bible4life. I know Jesus said He had power to lay down His life and take it up and that no one takes it from Him. But also that it pleased God to crush Him. So it may be both Christ and the Father, depending on which paradigm you're looking at. The Father had to administer the punishment, but the Son had to surrender. Just thoughts. I know the resurrection shows signs that each member of the Trinity had a part to play, not sure if the same is true of the Crucifixion.

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

God didn't kill Christ.

Roman soldiers killed him. They received their commands from Pilate who was pressured by God's chosen people to order the Lord's execution. God gave his son the authority to lay down his own life by submitting to this betrayal and execution.

If God's chosen people had accepted their King instead of murdering him then maybe God would have had the Levites sacrifice Christ as Abraham offered Isaac. Or perhaps God would have done it himself.

However, since God's chosen people had so hardened their hearts against him, it seems that he used this extreme method of allowing Jesus to be murdered by lawless men in order to soften their wicked hearts and bring them to repentance.

Men killed him. God handed him over to these men with his son's full consent.

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

?

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

About Isaiah 53:10 - I think Jesus was bruised by the hands of men. God didn't personally bruise Jesus. However, it pleased God to hand over his son to lawless men (for our redemption) who bruised and killed him. In that sense it pleased God to bruise him, though God did not personally and directly assault him.

The apostles did not seem to teach that God himself used his hands to physically harm Jesus. Peter preached "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye [men] have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" (Acts 2:23)

Jesus was killed by wicked hands not by God's holy hands. However, I really do believe that God would have been willing to sacrifice his own son just as Abraham was going to with Isaac. It just seemed wisest to God to deliver him into wicked hands instead.

If God poured out his wrath upon Jesus from all eternity and Jesus drank all of his wrath in so much that he says it is finished, in which all of our punishment he took for us do you think it was just speaking of the wrath from men?
What do you mean "poured out his wrath from all eternity"? I don't follow.

You said, "all of our punishment he took for us". I agree that Jesus took/removed all of our punishment (on the condition of repentance and faith) but Jesus did not personally [i]receive[/i] all of our punishment because he did not spend a trillion eternities in the lake of fire. Jesus' suffering and death was accepted by God as a substitute for our punishment. God did not pretend that it was our actual punishment. God is willing to set aside our actual punishment and accept the death of his son, our creator and Lord, as our substitute.

You asked "do you think it was just speaking of the wrath from men?". What are you referring to here? A bible verse? Or something from Paul Washer's article? I'm not sure what you're asking about.

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

Hi Benjoseph, you write......

"Jesus' suffering and death was accepted by God as a substitute for our punishment. God did not pretend that it was our actual punishment. God is willing to set aside our actual punishment and accept the death of his son, our creator and Lord, as our substitute."

Jesus suffered and died like many men have been martyred, many crucified, many burned, many torn limb from limb.(Although, let us be clear, the Bible says that He was marred mored than any man) I am not sure that you are getting the fact that God made Him sin. Our sins were laid upon Him. He suffered a seperation from His Father that is impossible to convey because it is beyond our understanding. He suffered hell on the cross. Hell is seperation from God. When one comes before God without the covering of Jesus, then that one will be cast out, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Its the seperation from God that is hell itself. Everyone of us will stand before God in the judgement day, the unadulterated presence of the living God. The mind is incapabale of understanding what it would mean to stand before the living God, then to be taken out of His presence. Now if that is hell for humanity, one can only imagine the hell that Jesus felt as He cried out "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me?" All Jesus had ever known was fellowship with His Father from eternity past. That , dear brother cannot and must not be overlooked or underestimated, there is great spiritual danger in overlooking the very essence of the cross I believe........Frank

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

Hi Frank, do you disagree with something I said? I don't understand what you took issue with.

The idea that the lake of fire is only separation from God and not an active unending punishment is not something I ever read in the bible. If the unquenchable fire of eternal punishment is only symbolic of separation from God then how should I understand Revelation 14:10?

I understand that Jesus figuratively "became" sin for us and figuratively "bore" our sins. Sin is a verb. A man cannot become a verb. Nor can a man have a verb laid upon him. These are just figures of speech which illustrate what I said about Jesus being a substitute for us.

I don't think the apostles taught that what happened to Jesus when he was killed was incomprehensible.

Like I said though, I don't understand what I said that prompted your response. I'd be glad to address something more specifically. I also believe it is of the highest importance to properly understand the atonement that God has provided for us.

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

I think the fact that Christ was of infinite worth and was worth more than anyone or anything else was the reason that his death was satisfactory and did not have to be forever like us spending an eternity their, it was the fact that it was God dying for us who was greater than all that even a few hours was even good enough. It was the value of Jesus who was worth more than everyone else put together.


I found this information from carm.org very informative


Why is it necessary for God to die for our sins?

Muslims often ask why it is necessary for God to die for man's sins. Why can't we just confess our sins and have God forgive us? Isn't that enough?

The following is an attempt to logically demonstrate the necessity of God atoning for our sins.

1. God is infinite.
1. There is no limit to Him. He is endless.
2. God is holy.
1. Holiness is purity. God is incapable of doing anything wrong. Part of the quality of holiness is the inability to do wrong.
3. God is just.
1. He always does what is right.
2. God cannot violate His own righteous declarations, because that would mean God is contradicting Himself.
3. This justice is according to His nature since it is He who tells us what is right and wrong.
4. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and infinitely just
1. Neither His holiness nor justice can be denied since they are part of His character and God cannot be denied.
5. We are not infinite and not holy
1. We are not infinite because we are creations.
2. We are not holy because we have sinned.
6. Sin is doing anything against God's Law.
1. It is God who declares what is right and wrong. He has revealed this to us in the scriptures.
7. The Law is a reflection of God's character.
1. God speaks out of what is in His mind and heart. If He says do not lie, it is because it is against God's nature to lie.
2. God is not speaking without reason or purpose. If He had no reason or purpose, this would mean that God is not trustworthy.
3. God is trustworthy, therefore God's Law is the standard of perfection, justice, and holiness.
8. God's Law carries a penalty upon the sinner which is damnation.
1. Damnation is the act of God where He passes righteous judgment upon a person because of the person's sin against Him.
2. If breaking God's law did not carry a penalty, then there would be no damnation. But since there is damnation, we can conclude that breaking God's law carries a penalty.
3. If He did not damn based upon righteousness, then God is doing wrong. Since God cannot do anything wrong, then damnation is righteous.
9. God is affected by what we do.
1. Proof of this is found in our prayers. Since God answers our prayers, our prayers have an affect upon God because God is moved to answer.
2. If our prayers have no affect upon God, then prayer is useless since it accomplishes nothing.
10. Breaking God's Law, sinning, has a negative effect upon our relationship with God.
1. God is not injured in a physical way by our sins since God is spirit, perfect and complete.
2. But, since damnation exists (because of the justice of God), we can conclude that sin has a negative affect upon the relationship between the sinner and God. If this were not so, there would be no damnation.
11. Since God is infinite, our offense against Him has an infinite effect.
1. It is the infinite God we have offended, therefore, the sin results in an infinite offense against God.
12. A finite person cannot remove an infinite offense against an infinite God.
1. A finite work cannot remove an infinite offense because the effort of a finite person will always fall short of meeting the justice of an infinite God.
13. God cannot arbitrarily forgive the sinner without satisfying His infinite justice.
1. If damnation is righteously given because of justice, so, too, forgiveness must be in accordance with justice because both are dealing with sin.
2. To simply dismiss sin in order to forgive is to deny justice.
3. If forgiveness is not consistent with God's justice, then God is arbitrary, inconsistent, and unjust.
4. Therefore, the act of forgiveness also requires an act of justice.
14. Since it is just that the sinner die and be damned, this justice cannot be ignored.
1. If it were ignored, then God is not being consistent in His justice.
2. If it were ignored, then God has no right to damn anyone.
3. No one is damned who is alive. Only the dead are damned.
15. Since man cannot earn forgiveness from God through his finite works, it must be God who makes forgiveness possible.
1. This is so, because there is no one left to make things right, other than God.
16. Since it is not just to ignore the penalty for sin, and since man cannot satisfy God, there is none left but God to pay for the just penalty of sin.
1. The sin cannot be ignored because the act of forgiveness also requires and act of justice.
2. This justice cannot be ignored because God would then be inconsistent.
17. It is just that the sinner die and suffer judgment.
1. Death is a punishment of God and damnation follows death.
18. Since it is just that sin must be dealt with, God must meet that requirement of justice.
1. This is so, because a finite person cannot please an infinite God's just requirements of holiness and purity.
2. God must then do what is just in forgiveness of sins - or justice cannot be met.
19. God must then take the place of the sinner and suffer the consequence of the lawful judgment of death upon the sinner.
20. With justice met, forgiveness can then be rightly given.
21. This forgiveness, which cannot be earned by man's effort, can only be received from God by man's faith - because there is nothing else he can do.

sermonindex Feb 9, 2010

The Infinite Savior

In Psalm 51:4 King David weeps very bitterly to the Lord, “Against You, You only have I sinned”

This is a most remarkable statement considering the fact that he had just committed adultery, taken the wife of one of his most faithful soldiers and arranged to have this faithful soldier killed on the battlefield. King David sinned against Uriah, Bathsheba, his own family and his entire kingdom, but yet he says to the Lord “Against You, You only have I sinned”? How could he say such a thing?

The answer to this perplexing question lies in the very nature of God Himself. Sin derives its definition and wrongness from God. Sin is what it is in light of who God is and sin does not exist apart from Him. Sin is not a standard over God and above God that exists apart from God. God does not look to the standard of sin to see what is right or wrong, but rather God defines the standard. God is ultimate and God tells us what things are sin and what things are not sin. If there’s no God, if there isn’t any ultimate being who defines sin, then sin simply does not exist.

But there is a God, and He has defined sin and righteousness for us. He is the ultimate, final authority and He is the standard. He is the Law maker and Judge. Therefore any sin that we commit is against Him and against His authority as the one and only Lawgiver. When we break His law we are assailing Him as Judge. Any lack of conformity to His Law is an attack upon Him and rebellion against Him. Sin is mutiny of the worst kind; the wicked act of the creature trying to usurp the throne and authority of the Creator.

Sin is ultimately therefore against God. But perhaps the most fearful thought in this regard is this: Sin is against an eternal and infinite God: Let that sink in for a moment…. Sin is against an eternal and infinite God. This being the case our sin takes on an eternal and infinite character that we cannot get rid of.

Think about this: God is infinite (limitless) and we are finite (limited), when we sin against an infinite God we accrue an infinite amount of guilt and our sin takes on an infinite quality that we as finite creatures cannot remove. We cannot expunge it no matter how hard we try. We cannot atone for it and we cannot go back in time and undo it. As far as our own ability is concerned, we are irrevocably joined to our sins and their guilt. We cannot extricate ourselves from their permeating grip; we are trapped and completely helpless to free ourselves from them.

We have dishonored God and cannot give Him His honor back, we have robbed Him of the glory that is due Him and we cannot make restitution. We have broken His law and cannot un-break it. As long as God exists, the guilt of our sin exists. And as long as God exists we remain finite law breakers who cannot absorb the punishment that we deserve.
At this point many will appeal to the love of God. They heard somewhere that God is love, and they believe that God must be love, so with this in mind they bank their eternal souls on this assumption: God is love and therefore He will overlook the sins that I have committed.

But in reality even the attribute of God’s love is, in one sense, turned against us as sinners: Because God is perfectly good and loves what is good, He must hate what is not good; and sin is not good. Because God is perfect love and loves what is lovable and most worthy of love, He must hate what is contrary to love; and mutinous self-centered sin is contrary to love. And because God is perfectly just and loves what is perfectly just, He must hate what is unjust; and sin is unjust. He must punish every sin or He Himself becomes unjust and a lover of what is wrong. He then would become unloving and a hater of His own attributes. Far from stteing us free from the wrath of God, His love in some ways only serve to compound our problem. We are truly in a dilemma!

This is the greatest problem that all of mankind faces; we are finite creatures who owe our Creator an infinite debt and our sin cries out for even His love and goodness to punish us fully for our lawless rebellion, what are we to do?

Who can pay an infinite debt? There is only one answer dear reader; an infinite being! Only God could pay an infinite price. Only God could expunge such a debt. Only God could absorb an infinite punishment and then say, “It is finished” (John 19:30).

In Jesus Christ we have God in human flesh taking upon Himself the sin of His people and absorbing that sin in full. In Jesus Christ we have a man keeping the Law of God that mankind did not keep and we have man dying the death that mankind deserved. Yet at the same time we have the infinite God in the person of the Son paying the infinite debt that we owe to God the Father! Who but God could come up with such a wonderful and gracious plan?

Without violating justice at all, He has dealt out the perfect punishment for our sin. But in an act of incomprehensible love he has taken that punishment upon himself for all those who will humble themselves, surrender to Him and trust Him entirely to deliver them from the wrath that they deserve.

Reader, if the Jesus you know and worship is not the second person of the Trinity; God the Son, fully God and yet fully man, then you do not worship the Jesus of the Bible. And if the Jesus that you call “Savior” is not God in human flesh, then your “Savior” cannot save you from the infinite guilt of your sins! If your Jesus is not God, then you must die in your sins and you must wear out eternity suffering the righteous judgment of God for the myriad of sins that you have committed against Him.

But why do such a horrible thing? Why not turn from your sins and flee to the real Savior? Why not flee to the Savior who is willing to save those who have foolishly rebelled against Him? Why not flee to the Savior who is kind enough to save those who have hated Him for no reason? Why not flee to the Savior who is powerful enough to pay for sin in full? Why be estranged from such a Savior when He so graciously invites you to come to Him?

That Jesus alone can give you rest from the burden of your sins! polemos.com

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