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Theology

Old Testament Ethics Esau/Jacob Rachel/Leah

sermonindex Feb 11, 2010

Just started reading the bible again, never really read the bible.

I had questions about the old testament. Contrary to what I was taught, it seems that a lot of our bible "heroes" had very human flaws.

For example, Jacob LIED to his father to STEAL Esau's blessings. Rebekah favored one son over the other so much that she wanted to steal one kid's blessing to give to the other.

Isn't this suppose to be a loving christian family? Or possibly, did Esau sin against God to deserve this?

Why was Leah unloved? Did she sin to not have favor in the eyes of Jacob? Did Rachel sin to receive a barren womb?

B
boG Feb 11, 2010

Our Bible "heroes" were certainly flawed in many respects, Mary, the mother of Jesus, was no exception. Jesus alone was flawless, being perfect and without sin.

As for Isaac's family, "Isn't this suppose to be a loving christian family?"

You are correct, ideally, they are supposed to be a family loving one another and without partiality (no less than you are supposed to be a perfect Christian). But that does not mean they actually were a perfect family. Learn from their mistakes and do not follow after their bad examples.

Did Esau sin against God to deserve this?

Yes. Esau sold his birthright because he was a "fornicator" and "profane person" (Hebrews 12:16, 17).

As to the question of why did Jacob covet his brother's birthright, or why did his mother help in deceiving his father, her husband?

Because they too were sinners.

Why was Leah unloved? Did she sin to not have favor in the eyes of Jacob?

I am not going to pretend to understand any particular allegorical meaning behind these things, such as with Paul's explanation of Abraham's wives, Sarah and Hagar. But, historically, we may guess that Isaac loved Rachel because to him she was beautiful and Leah was not so (Gen. 29:17). We could ask the same question of any married man: why did you love and marry this woman rather than another?

Did Rachel sin to receive a barren womb?

The disciple's asked a similar question of a man who was born blind: "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." John 9:1-3.

I would reckon that the root of all of your questions finds its center in Jesus' reply, "that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

sermonindex Feb 11, 2010

Thank you so much. That was the most complete answer I have gotten in any forum

sermonindex Feb 11, 2010

Welcome codek,

You bring some good questions!

I would like to qualify further what brother BoG has answered.

We have to remember that no-one had victory over sin in the fulness described by Paul in the New Testament, until after Jesus Christ had come, died, risen, ascended, and our Father had poured out the Holy Spirit in a measure previously unprecedented, upon repentant humans.

So, to suggest that all the processes of human life - such as desiring to know God, choosing a wife or not being able to have children - are BECAUSE of sin, when we see all these being successfully pursued by others who also were 'sinners', is a faulty conclusion. God did not withhold these blessings even from Adam who sinned first.

Instead, God found a way to continue communicating with Adam, although it cannot have been the blissful fellowship they had enjoyed before the Fall. God covered Adam and Eve's nakedness to overcome their embarrassment as much as to protect His own sight of their fallen condition. He loved them.

Regarding Esau, he had other priorities by his own reckoning, based on the desires of his flesh. And yet his grandfather Abraham, who had had everything a man could desire (great earthly riches and an exceptionally beautiful wife) was willing to up sticks and comply with God's call to leave his abiding place, for a 'blessing' - that invisible, intangible, life-transforming gift from God. Abraham was [u]not[/u] after the [i]land[/i] first of all.

Rebekah becomes more interesting the more we get to know her brother (through how he treated Jacob), because obviously, they grew up in the same household, with the same parents.

Note the thing that brought that brother chasing after Jacob many years later, (although he did mention the disappearance of his daughters), was the loss of an household idol.

Note who had taken it, and who prevented him finding it, and how. These people all merely showed what Jesus later defined in John 8:44. We know that there is, through Christ, grace and power in His death, to be cut off from that original fatherhood of our first spiritual/natural birth.

Note also, that although Rachel cried out to Jacob 'Give me children or I die', it was more of a prayer to God. He Himself had brought her to the end of her natural self until she naturally desired the increase which only can come from Him.

Regarding Leah, for all that she may not have had Rachel's 'figure', she had 'soft eyes'. She was gentle and God chose to grant to her to become the mother of Judah, from whom our Lord Jesus [i]naturally[/i] descended.

Why was Leah unloved?
If I may be absolutely blunt here, isn't this an extremely insensitive question?

Just think about it. Jacob had been in love with Rachel since the first time he saw her. He did not immediately begin to work for her, but when he did, he had to serve seven whole years as a dowry (seeing he had no money. He was totally dependent on her father for protection, should Esau come looking for him. He had nothing to lose and everything to gain.) He adored Rachel. How many times in [u]seven years[/u] do you think he may have dreamt about the day she would be his wife? Then, on the morning after the wedding, he wakes up and discovered LEAH lying beside him? You think he ought to have been happy? Everything in me wants to say 'GET REAL!!!' He had never - not once - [i]fancied Leah![/i] She was not on his list of possible wives. Neither do we know how [i]old[/i] she was, to not have been married to another already.

Regarding Rachel, there are similarities between her and Sarai, who also could not have children until God helped her. (Gen 25:6) I think there [i]is[/i] a link between idolatry and barrenness, because idolatry is deeply rooted in unbelief.

(Read right through Leviticus 18, to the bit about childlessness. Is this a way of protecting the next generation from being subjected to the same abominations?)

God wanted to use these women, and He needed to get their attention so completely, that they knew the special children which came from them, were His very particular blessing upon them.

Now, before you worry about the fact they had divided loyalties, when you get to it, you'll find that so did Solomon. But he also desired God's blessing, and so God blessed him. This differs starkly from Saul's attitude, for which cause God [u]removed[/u] His blessing from him.

Back to Easu. When he and Jacob finally meet, he is so rich, he wants to refuse Jacob's gifts. Basically, he had got what he wanted out of life. Whereas Jacob is still grappling with God, and what it means to serve Him in reality, and still reeling from wrestling all night in Peniel. These two outlooks on life are poles apart.

By the time Jacob comes to be blessing his own grandchildren (Joseph's sons), he seems to have come to an understanding about God's ability to overlook the natural order, (ie the best (double portion) blessing to the firstborn) and, in his prophesy, he pronounces [u]God's[/u] blessing upon the boys indiviually and specifically.


We see, therefore, that God is after the heart, and, we do know that Jacob repented, effectively, by asking God to protect him, and promising to serve Him if he would, very soon after deceiving Isaac and having to run away in fear of his life. So, both God, and Jacob, got what they wanted from the relationship with each other. Awesome!

sermonindex Feb 12, 2010

Thank you Alive-to-God. This is now a full length bible study. I read through it once but I'm going to have to dive in deeper to get what I can from your response.

How do I read posts by you guys? I think it would be beneficial for any bible newb like me to read your posts.
Is there sticky's in this forum or a search function.

E
ET101 Dec 12, 2011

I've just started a cover-to-cover re-read of the Bible and I had an almost exact replica question to codek. I thought I'd search for posts on the topic before I started yet another thread and found this.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!! SUCH wonderful responses to a hugely important question which touches on 'who is God? what is His character?' and ethics.

Thank you.

G
ginnyrose Dec 12, 2011

QUOTE:
"a hugely important question which touches on 'who is God? what is His character?'"

This, to me, is the heart of understanding the WORD.

I love the OT stories, the law, the prophets and Ecclesiastes. When I read, study these Scriptures, I am always in my heart asking this question, "what does this teach me about God?" When you ask this question regardless where or what you are reading the answers get very interesting. Try it when you are reading the genealogy list and see what answer the Holy Spirit will give you!

Now, back to the original observation about these OT characters and the shenanigans they were involved in, what does this teach you about God? When you look at these questions from this perspective, the answers do become obvious, or easier to understand. When it focuses on God and not on man....the outcome is vastly different. AND then Paul's writings, including Romans and Hebrews will make a whole lot more sense, as well as Jesus',e.g., the Sermon on the Mount. The NT is a very Jewish book and once you can understand this, the culture from which it arose, understanding will come. It is beautiful and so delightful!

God bless in your study - you are in for a delightful journey!

T
twayneb Dec 14, 2011

Codek:

This question brought some things to my mind. I almost hate to put down the way I see it for fear that it might put the discussion on an all to familiar sidetrack discussion, but I think it is important to our Christian walk and out understanding of God.

Abraham married a half sister. Under the old testament law Abraham should have been stoned to death. This marriage is something that God expressly stated was an abomination to Himself. Abraham went in to his wife’s maid to attempt to have a child. Abraham lied. Abraham did not demonstrate what we today would consider holiness, yet God called Abraham His friend and imputed righteousness to Abraham by faith. God established un unalterable covenant with Abraham in spite of Abraham’s life.

Jacob married sisters. This is something that under the law was considered an abomination to God and was punishable by death. Yet God chose Jacob, renamed him Israel, and elected him to be the father of the nation chosen by God to bring forth the Messiah.

Paul tells us that before the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed where there is no law. Paul also tells us that the law was meant fulfill two major functions. 1. It was meant to restrain sin. The law was given until the seed should come. Paul tells us that the old covenant cannot annul the covenant of promise given to Abraham which was the covenant through which Christ was to come. Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The law was an intervening covenant that was meant to restrain sin until the seed (Jesus) could come and deal with sin.
2. The law was meant to show us that we were in sin and demolish any sense of self-righteousness that we might have. We were shut up under the law. It was a school master that taught us we needed a savior.
What the law was never meant to do was to give us a way in which we could please God and be right with Him.

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. This righteousness by faith is the seam righteousness that we receive as a result of our faith in the work of Jesus Christ.

So you see, it wasn’t the good works of Abraham that caused him to be right in God’s eyes or that caused God to be predisposed to use Abraham, to make covenant with him. Instead God appeared to Abraham and said, “Abraham, will you believe me when I tell you that I will make of you a great nation and bless all nations through your seed?” Abraham believed, and was counted as righteous.

The point I am making through this is that it was not Abraham’s or Jacob’s ability to be pleasing in God’s eyes that caused God to use them. God did not suddenly decide that marriage to your half sister was wrong. The law was a picture of His standard and His standard has never and will never change. If it was wrong under law it was wrong before law. However God used Abraham anyway, because of faith.

We must relate to God in the same way. We must understand that it is not our own righteousness that gets us anywhere with God, but rather it is our response in faith to His sacrifice that makes us righteous in His eyes. I think the fact that we look on these OT figures and see the very obvious transgressions says something about us. Under the new covenant we have the laws of God written on our hearts. We might think, and this is not spiritual pride, “Well I cannot imagine ever doing that.” It is not that we are not wholly capable of such actions, but we have a different perspective now that we are made righteous by faith in what Jesus did and our spirits have been reborn. I no longer have a desire to sin and when I do I cringe and my heart breaks that I have done that which is inconsistent with my righteous nature. A lost man does not have the same reaction. He may determine a certain level of “morality” that he desires to follow and feel his conscience pricked when he violates that which he has set as his goal. But ultimately he finds himself sinning without compunction. I praise God for the covenant of peace whereby we have righteousness imputed unto us just like Abraham did. I could have never saved myself. Out of love for me God did what I could not do. Oh how He love you and me!!!

S
Sree Dec 14, 2011


Did Rachel sin to receive a barren womb?

The disciple's asked a similar question of a man who was born blind: "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." John 9:1-3.

Though I agree with all your answers, I don't think you are right here. I am not sure why Rachel was Barren for a short time, after which she gave birth to Joseph. But the answer that you posted from Jesus talking about a Blind person, I am not sure that can be applied in all cases. Not all blind people are born to manifest God's work by healing them. Jesus's reply is specific to that Blind man whom he healed. It cannot be applied to everyone who is born with some sickness and then tell them that they were born like this to be healed by God.
There are cases when Children suffer because of Parent's sins. Eg David's first son with Bathsheba died because of David's sin.

G
ginnyrose Dec 19, 2011

One important lesson a person can learn by careful and studious observation of Bible characters is how flawed they were. They needed God. Period. God did not give up on them, instead he worked with them - extending a lot of patience, mercy towards them.

Some of these characters were, well- gross, e.g., Samson. What can one learn from him? Perhaps that God does not give up on people? not as quick as we do...

Another important lesson is that it does not matter who our ancestors are, what they did, what horrible sins they have been involved in, or even how godly they were, we all have to make our own decisions. Holiness is not inherited but a sinful nature is. Now, what will we do with that nature? It can be crucified at the cross and replaced with a new one. It is all up to us. We cannot blame our ancestors, our heritage for any spiritual lack. Nor, can we depend on our godly heritage to make us holy. We have to make our own decision - no one else can do it for us.

One of the most remarkable transformation of OT characters is King Manasseh. If he can change, how much more is available to us because we have the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to facilitate that? Awesome.

The stories in the BIBLE illustrate to us the mercy, and grace of God - the working of God in the lives of people to make a people fit for his kingdom - and they did not always cooperate but He kept right on working to this end. Things have not changed any since then, have they?

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