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Oh Horrible Decree by Charles Wesley

sermonindex Feb 12, 2010


[b]Oh Horrible Decree[/b]
[i]by Charles Wesley[/i]


Ah! Gentle, gracious Dove,
And art thou grieved in me,
That sinners should restrain thy love,
And say, “It is not free:
It is not free for all:
The most, thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call
Whom thou hast doomed to die.”

They think thee not sincere
In giving each his day,
“ Thou only draw’st the sinner near
To cast him quite away,
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal:
Thou show’st him heaven, and say’st, go in
And thrusts him into hell.”

O HORRIBLE DECREE
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy
Who charge it on the Lamb:
Whose pity him inclined
To leave his throne above,
The friend, and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace, and love.

O gracious, loving Lord,
I feel thy bowels yearn;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in thy concern:
How art thou grieved to be
By ransomed worms withstood!
How dost thou bleed afresh to see
Them trample on thy blood!

To limit thee they dare,
Blaspheme thee to thy face,
Deny their fellow-worms a share
In thy redeeming grace:
All for their own they take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of thy cross.

Sinners, abhor the fiend:
His other gospel hear—
“The God of truth did not intend
The thing his words declare,
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mocked with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace.

“The righteous God consigned
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb;
To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.

“The God of love passed by
The most of those that fell,
Ordained poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell.”
“He did not do the deed”
(Some have more mildly raved)
“He did not damn them—but decreed
They never should be saved.

“He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath,
His grace he only would not give,
And starved their souls to death.”
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all-gracious God,
They charge the sinner’s death on thee,
Who bought’st him with thy blood.

They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of hosts,
And offer thee, in sacrifice
Millions of slaughtered ghosts:
With newborn babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
“For such,” they say, “was thy great will,
Before the world was made.”

How long, O God, how long
Shall Satan’s rage proceed!
Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpent’s head?
Surely thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet:
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit.

Arise, O God, arise,
Thy glorious truth maintain,
Hold forth the bloody sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend thy mercy’s cause,
Thy grace divinely free,
Lift up the standard of thy cross,
Draw all men unto thee.

O vindicate thy grace,
Which every soul may prove,
Us in thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply,
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for him to die.

My life I here present,
My heart’s last drop of blood,
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that thou art good,
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have:
Thou willest not the sinner’s death,
But all the world wouldst save.

O take me at my word,
But arm me with thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL

W
wayneman Feb 12, 2010

Before this thread gets overrun by the Calvinist Cavalry, let me say this...on second thought, I'm out of here!

W
whyme Feb 12, 2010

I'm a little dense today ( some would say everyday ). Is Charles Wesley only declaring as Satanic the hyper calvinist doctrine of double predestination and the further effect of that doctrine of not seeking and being burdened for all the lost. Or, is he also sweeping in as Satanic the doctrines of grace of effectual call, irrisistable grace and limited atonement?

sermonindex Feb 12, 2010

Charles Wesley considered either the doctrines of grace to be true or false. And [b]if[/b] it was false then surely either it was formed by satan or by the fleshy mind of a man.

And that is the conclusion that I believe he came to. I personally do see the dangers in the belief for myself don't hold to it. But I can see how brothers who believe it can still do the will of God if they don't lean on hyper Calvinistic beliefs.

J
jlosinski Feb 12, 2010

So why would God allow Christ to die for those whom He knew would never trust Him?

How essential is it to believe on the name of Christ for salvation? What of those who have never heard? Does God reveal Himself without revealing Christ?

J
jlosinski Feb 12, 2010

Before this thread gets overrun by the Calvinist Cavalry, let me say this...on second thought, I'm out of here!

:) thanks for the laugh, I feel the same way. My questions are ones that I've come to by studying the scriptures, it seems like too often we are willing to fight for God's reputation, as it were.
Grace to you,
Joe

sermonindex Feb 12, 2010

So why would God allow Christ to die for those whom He knew would never trust Him?

How essential is it to believe on the name of Christ for salvation? What of those who have never heard? Does God reveal Himself without revealing Christ?

This type of thinking does not hold up brother. I would say then that why would God "create" any person who he knew would rebel and mar his creation. God breathed into beings to give them life that was a waste of his time and energy if that creation was going to be destroyed.

the fact is that Christ died for all so that all can be saved. God's salvation is open to all, that is the love of God.

W
whyme Feb 12, 2010

Brothers and Sisters,

I feel constrained to inform those who don't know any differently that there are those who hold to the doctrines of grace and yet believe very strongly ( based on Scripture ) that God desires all to be saved and reveals Himself to the world in grace (either in nature or through the Gospel) to all men. What we further believe is that all men will by their own choice and strong desire reject that grace. This God knew from the beginning of time. Here is where God will not have His own will frustrated by the sinful wills of men and He elects some in love to eternal salvation by changing their hearts and their desires so that the will obey the Gospel command to repent and believe. This belief we hold, further, does not in anyway, minimize the desire in our heart ( or in God's heart ) to proclaim the Gospel to every creature. God commands all men everywhere to repent and turn to Him.

Any that hold that the doctrines of Grace necessarily demand that the believer in them not have a desire for all men to come to saving faith doesn't understand fully either the doctrines ( or in my opinion,) the Scriptures in the fully orbed revelation of God's elective will and His desire that all be saved.

Please know that some of the most gifted evangelist that God has ever used, believe just as I have described. Finally, I for one strongly urge the moderators, if they do believe these doctrines are fleshly and dangerous, to delete the applicable teaching of certain preachers from the site ( like Paul Washer, John Piper, Allistar Begg, Spurgeon, etc,etc. that contain these doctrines, expecially, the doctrine of penal substitution) if indeed these are Satanic doctrines.

M
makrothumia Feb 12, 2010

Re: "How essential is it to believe on the name of Christ for salvation?"

I can not begin to convey the sadness that such a question generates in my heart.

makrothumia

J
jlosinski Feb 12, 2010

You and me both. The reason I asked it was, according to some in the church that hold to a previent view of grace, EVERY man, woman , and child that has come into the world will have a chance to trust in God, regardless if they heard of Christ or not. If God judges them on the response to the light He gives them, it doesn't seem to me that believing in the person of Jesus Christ is a prerequisite of salvation. So if that's the case, what is their merit before God based on?

B
boG Feb 13, 2010

Thanks for the poem / hymn (?) by Charles Wesley. I am quite fond of Wesley's theology.

there are those who hold to the doctrines of grace and yet believe very strongly ( based on Scripture ) that God desires all to be saved and reveals Himself to the world in grace (either in nature or through the Gospel) to all men.

Then these neither understand nor believe the "doctrines of grace" as defined by the authors of that confession.

The popular attempt at systematizing God's so-called impotent desires with His effectual desires is known as the "two wills" theory. But, perhaps, based on Scripture, these people recognize that Christ did in fact die for all men every where, yet do not realize their denominational doctrines such as the 5-Points or the "two wills" are entirely in opposition to that belief.

What you are referring to is more properly known as Amyraldianism (ie. 4-Point Calvinism) or Moderate Calvinism. Which is a round-a-bout way of saying "I want to be an Arminian." ; )

So why would God allow Christ to die for those whom He knew would never trust Him?

That is a good question, you should ask God why He did that. Here are two articles from the Wesleyan tradition worth reading on this very topic.

John Wesley: Perseverance of the Saints
http://www.imarc.cc/esecurity/perseverance.html

John Fletcher: The Fictitious and Genuine Creed: Being "A Creed for Arminians"
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_fletcher/The%20ficticous.htm


How essential is it to believe on the name of Christ for salvation?

Absolutely necessary.

What of those who have never heard?

Who have never heard what? About Jesus?

Acts 17:25-28,
"[God] Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist."

Does God reveal Himself without revealing Christ?

Yes. See Romans 1.

Westminster Larger Catechism, Answer 2: "The very light of nature in man, and the works of God, declare plainly that there is a God; but his Word and Spirit only do sufficiently and effectually reveal him unto men for their salvation."

Compare: Romans 1:18-19 to Proverbs 1:23
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

"Turn to my reproof, and behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you."

The "reproof" may be properly defined as the General Revelation (or Common Grace) of God that is intentionally given to turn men from their sins unto faith in Christ. When God says He will pour out His Spirit and make His words known, He is speaking of that wisdom (ie. Special Revelation) unto salvation (see 2 Timothy 3:15).

The Scriptures are clear that the General Revelation of God efficiently leaves the world without excuse (Rom. 1:20). There is therefore no need for any one to hear of Christ in order to be fit for destruction and rejected by God for their sin. Not to mention our condemnation in Adam, ie. original sin (Romans 5:12-21).

1) This is true: "EVERY man, woman, and child that has come into the world will have a chance to trust in God, regardless if they heard of Christ or not."

(Exception: "Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) with slight revisions by C. H. Spurgeon.)

2) This is true: "If God judges them on the response to the light He gives them ..."

The only qualification I would add to this is that God has decreed to judge all men according to their "deeds done in the flesh," that is, all actual sins or their acting upon faith, because Christ's atonement covers over our condemnation in Adam (original sin). However, this is a statement I will not defend here.

3) This is false: "... [therefore] it doesn't seem to me that believing in the person of Jesus Christ is a prerequisite of salvation."

You have not understood Prevenient Grace and drawn a false conclusion. So this is not the case, and there is still no basis of merit before God.

If you would learn of Prevenient Grace then let me give it a familiar title: Common Grace. The key distinction is that Prevenient Grace is the teaching that Common Grace is sufficient to LEAD all men UNTO Saving Grace (ie. the knowledge of and love for Christ Jesus according to the ministry of the Holy Spirit). For example, read Acts 17:26-27 again, or even Romans 2:4. This passage, Romans 2:4, is of particular importance because we know that God is kind to all men therefore He must be actually leading all men unto repentance. For this reason, if God is leading all men unto repentance then the originating cause of the many being damned must lie within themselves. This truth is abundantly manifest in our Lord's sermon, Matthew 5:43-48,

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Or will you argue that God does not sincerely "Love His enemies"? In this context, I am defining "enemies" as the so-called "elect reprobate" or those irresistibly predestined to hell without any reference to foreseen sin. This is a dilemma that the 5-Points cannot answer and is the root of the "two wills" theory. To which I must ask, does God only love those who love Him? Is our Father no better than the tax collectors? Surely to be "children of [our] Father which is in heaven" is to be like Jesus, the perfect expression of the Father (John 5:19).

Charles Wesley got it right, Oh Horrible Decree.

D
dab Feb 13, 2010

If either Wesley, or Calvin, or anyone else would have claimed to have gotten it "right" (and maybe they did, I don't know) would that not betray an arrogance that could preclude them from really knowing? It seems that part of what is being considered is understanding the love of God. Hopefully, no one would be so proud as to assert that he or she comprehends the love of God. The nearer He draws us, does His love not become more incomprehensible? But we cannot stop at His love. How can we fully comprehend any of His traits? This form of communication (through a forum) has some weaknesses, so I pray that what I say next will be only minimally misunderstood. The Jesus who said, "Love your enemies," also said, "Hate your mother and father." We have to be so careful. Our insistence on trying to resolve such things for our own understanding can lead us away from the very Christ this tension may be designed to propel us towards. I have recently been overwhelmed with an appreciation for Paul's words in Romans 11:33-34. May His tensions only drive us to the feet of the Savior, to know only Him.

With care in Christ,
David

W
wayneman Feb 13, 2010

Hi David

Your remarks reminded me of a passage I was reading this morning, from Jacob Boehme:

"The theologians and Christian sectarians keep on continually
disputing about the letter and form, while they care nothing for the
spirit, without which the form is empty and the letter dead. Each one
imagines that he has the truth in his keeping, and wants to be admired
by the world as a keeper of the truth. Therefore they denounce and
slander and backbite each other, and thus they act against the first
principle taught by Christ, and which is brotherly love. Thus the
Church of Christ has become a bazaar where vanities are exhibited,
and as the Israelites dance around the golden calf, so the modern
Christians dance around their self-constructed fetishes, whom they call
God, and on account of this fetish-worship they will not be able to
enter the promised land...

"The true Christian does not cling to any particular sect He may
participate in the ceremonial service of every sect, and still belong to
none. He has only one science, which is Christ within him ; he has
only one desire, namely, to do good. Look at the flowers of the field.
Each one has its own particular attributes, nevertheless they do not
wrangle and fight with each other. They do not quarrel about the
possession of sunshine and rain, or dispute about their colors, odor,
and taste. Each one grows according to its nature. Thus it is with the
children of God. Each one has his own gifts and attributes, but they all
spring from one Spirit. They enjoy their gifts, and praise the wisdom
of Him from whom they originated. Why should they dispute about the
qualities of Him whose attributes are manifest in themselves ?
those of the others. Why should all be alike ? Who condemns the
birds of the forest because they do not all sing the same tune?"

sermonindex Feb 13, 2010

Beloved, you wrote:

The Jesus who said, "Love your enemies," also said, "Hate your mother and father." We have to be so careful.

very very wisely put, i do so love that Precious Bit of Scripture, Romans 11:33-34

ESPECIALLY when walking thru a good bit of northwood in spring or summer, taking a white oak leaf, or a sugar maple leaf, holding it towards the sun and admiring the complexity of its vascular system, and the Wonderous Mind of God Who could design as such!.......AND i might add in the case of the sugar maple...to give us nourishing syrup!

What a Wonderful Maker!!!

as a sidebar, gentlemen, brothers, why must some of you find it neccessary to flip around complex theological terminology like nickels?...i for one have no idea what you are speaking about, why cant you speak plainly?...or does the exhibition of your "great learning" count for more than the understanding of the reader?

but i must beg your forgiveness for this rebuke, as i have really no desire TO understand the turgid theological argument afoot, i just beg you to veer from religioitic pride....we have many many "visitors".

nice point brother David, neil

J
jlosinski Feb 13, 2010

No problem, like I said, most of the time it seems like we are "defending God's reputation" with these things. Heresey is one thing, but these are certainly non-essentials. It's a hard balance to maintain at times, orthodoxy with orthopraxy... Too much without the other is a mess

H
hmmhmm Feb 13, 2010

[i]We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.[/i]

Paul is speaking concerning doctrines in those days regarding food and eating... but i think it applies to all things, twp people can study scripture just as carefully, with fear and trembling, with a heart of obedience, yet one can lean towards "Calvins" understanding, another towards "Wesleys" understanding. Yet both must in truth admit they know not as they ought to know, yet....

If Calvin loved God, God knew him.... if Wesley loved God, he was known by God.

I just think any theology that excludes any man from calling unto God in repentance for the saving of his soul is not in accordance with the rest of scripture. This is my personal conviction. Also any doctrine that says all men will be saved in the end is not in agreement with scripture.

How it all works out i dont know, the man who wrote Romans 9 also wrote if any man knows anything, he know nothing yet... And i know Paul includes himself in that crowd, and probably he had a better understanding of these things then any of us would claim.

I have found the best is just to stick with scripture, not add so much "explanation" to what it mean. God commands all men to repent, he also predestined some to be conformed into the image of Jesus. Let us accept both are equally true despite they dont fit our box of logic we have in our mind.

All scripture are God breathed... even the ones we dont like, dont understand etc.

and the apostle Peter wrote this about some things that Paul wrote:

[i]as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.[/i]

If the apostle Peter that walked with Jesus, and spoke with him, loved him and listened to him for several years, saw his resurrected body thought some of his brother Pauls teachings where hard to understand, then how can we say we understand all? maybe we can, but the warning here is not to not understand them or not mastering the doctrines of grace or wesleys doctrines, but to twist them to fit one owns motives and goals and theology. So to deal dishonestly with scripture in any form is to our own destruction. Wheter it be a verse with the word predestination in it or the word all...

Therefore, i encourage us all to deal humbly with scripture and as Thomas Watson wrote, admit you are very unworthy God would reveal anything to a man like yourself... May the Lord enlarge our hearts.

sermonindex Feb 13, 2010

i agree whyme. I think the question really comed down to this do we think that God opens the eyes of all men to the gospel? Because we all know that no one will choose Christ unless their is a working of the holy spirit, God must take the veil off our eyes. Do we believe he does this for all?

sermonindex Feb 13, 2010

hhhhmmmm amen

H
hmmhmm Feb 13, 2010

God must take the veil off our eyes. Do we believe he does this for all?

if you meen all will se the wonderful truth that lies in the gospel and in the Lord Jesus? no they will not, scripture and the Lord Jesus said few will in the end be saved. But scripture also says.

[i]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Tit 2:11 NAS)[/i]

In some way, Gods grace has appeared to all men. bringing salvation to them. We know it does not mean all will be saved, that would not be in agreement with many other scriptures. But it does mean, Gods grace has appeared to all... can that be without the spirits work? can any man see Gods grace without the spirits working? I dont know for sure, but there are many alike verses also that speaks of Gods love for all men and his will to see all men come to repentance.

sermonindex Feb 13, 2010

we know that the father must draw us and we know we are spiritually discerned before coming to Christ, are you saying that at the hearing of the gospel that some will resist the spirit or believe on it. I think that God has to work in us first. I think scripture speaks on that, but who really knows but God.

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