Salvation

This subject is so vague sometimes. Some people say, if you say the prayer and meant it, you are a christian, which I disgree too. You have to be changed and repent. Some say if the Holy Spirit is in you, you will change automatically.

But I think most of question our salvation from time to time especially when you were good at controlling your sin but when you fall, you might feel that you were never saved in the first place. Even Franis Chan sometimes questions his salvation. So what is the definitive answer?

It's very hard to talk about this at church where everyone has to act perfect, not because of God but for people.

So, here is an example. Lets say you do drugs or smoke or any other sin. The church frowns upon this so around christians you have to act like you just quit cold turkey. But most of the time, you just can't quit cold turkey. This goes for any sin: sex, masturbation, hatred, anger, impatience, etc.

And many times you question your salvation because you still are doing the sin. You tell yourself that if you were really saved Holy Spirit would not allow you to sin.

So is there a good site or anything that dictates the in's and out's of salvation?

you have to act like you just quit cold turkey. But most of the time, you just can't quit cold turkey. This goes for any sin: sex, masturbation, hatred, anger, impatience, etc.

This gave me an idea. There are Two Ways to Stop Sinning: Way to stop sinning number one is Cold Turkey. Way to stop sinning number two is Hot Turkey - in hell.

Pick any one of those. It should apply to all. I'm not a crazy sinner or anything. Just your average Joe.

Let's pick drugs. Let's say you're addicted to crack and you get saved. Holy spirit gives you power to never do crack again from that moment on in all cases? You can use smoking in this example.

What about the sin of gluttony? Our body is a temple of God. But how many people do you see quit all normal foods and go on a strict vegan diet cold turkey to never go back?

How about pornography or even lust. What if you saw a pretty girl walk by? Even Francis Chan said that those temptations don't go away from you because you are saved. Isn't it a constant war between flesh and spirit for all the days of my your life?

What about anger? Someone deliberately tried to hurt you or your family? Or you just caught your wife cheating on you? after you were saved. Someone just raped someone close to you and they show up next to you?

I'm not understanding the responses so please clarify. So everyone saved would have stopped cold turkey? Then we would be perfect after salvation?

I think people confuse temptation with sin a lot.

It is not wrong to have temptations or feel certain emotions if we have no choice about it. Sin is only when we choose to do something wrong.

Sin we have to stop cold turkey because sin is rebellion against God and it dishonors him. Temptation is something we pray to be kept from but remember Jesus experienced great temptation. Temptation is something we will have but sin we must forsake completely.

I recommend a book for you it is real cheap about six dollars but it is a very good book on explaining what has happened through the cross of Jesus to the believer. The book is called the Normal Christian Life by watchman nee, trust me it is real good and real deep. If you are truly a believer your old self and sin nature has been crucified to the cross with Jesus, it was all judged on the cross. The book of romans is great at explaining that we as believers are dead to sin, we have to know this, we are no longer a slave to sin but to God and righteousness. We are now in the spirit and Christ is working in me now, i now overcome the deeds of the flesh because of Jesus Christ he has defeated sin, satan and death. As Christ rose from the dead we also have been rose to new bodies in Christ, we must know and reckon this and now live in the spirit, he has set you free if your a believer. Do not sow to the flesh but to the spirit, satan wants you to do the things of the flesh so he will tempt you and bring everything at you to defeat you but you must be strong in the word of God and do as james ch.4 says to resist satan and submit unto God, your a new creation if you our saved. The spirit and flesh war against one another but choose the spirit. When Christ died on the cross you have to realize your old self died with him on the cross, your a new man. I will say this about the believer according to scripture you look at the church of corinth and they were at a time living in carnality, but through the sanctifying work of the holy spirit in them they grew and matured in the walk. In hebrews it says that God chastizes his children but the ones he doesn't chastize over their sin they are considered bastards. If God has saved you, you will have a desire to live for righteousness and to obey the holy spirit, if you sin and you will you will be convicted and will want to repent. One thing we have to understand is that we are saved by Christ through faith in him, even that gift of faith is given by God.When we believe in Christ as our saviour of our sins and our life and on his finished work on the cross we are given the very righteousness of Jesus, his perfect righteousness in which is the only way to stand before a holy God. We are justified or made right in Gods eyes and i guess you can say considered sinless because of Christ's righteousness. You are given an A plus from the beginning because it is nothing you can do but what Christ has done. If you sin you do not lose your salvation you our still cleansed by his blood if you our saved. In hebrews it says that he died as a sacrifice once and for all for all sins and we must believe that it was past, present and future because otherwise we would be saying that it is something we had to do to maintain it. You need to get a proper understanding of God's hatred towards sin, study it in scripture and though whatever way possible so you can understand how much God hates sin in so much that his only begotten son Jesus Christ had to die for us by bearing our sins upon himself. God's hatred and justice against sin is shown at the cross. He does not tolerate sin. Read habakuk, spelled it wrong ch. 1 verse 13. It says the Lords eyes are to pure to behold evil. Everytime we sin we are taking the side of satan over God. Christ shed his blood for us because sin was heineous before a holy God. It took his death to save us.I hope i helped.

@IWantAnguish

First off, I want to tell you I appreciate your posts. They really are insightful and help me out a lot.

about this:

And as for the topic of salvation...

Although I do not agree that people can make a choice to stop the inward sins of pride, bitterness, lust, envy, jealousy, hate, arrogance, deceitfulness, selfishness... I believe that the grace of God is more than able to change the direction and leanings of the heart in such a way that would be so supernatural, that only God could receive the glory for the change in the individual.

Do you agree with some posters here that God should do this instantaneously when you get saved and the Holy Spirit resides in you? And that the inward sins of pride, bitterness, lust, envy, etc are forever gone?

@benjoseph

I agree people do confuse sin and temptation a lot. But I need to clarify the issue at hand is do we continually sin after we receive salvation or not.

I believe so. I believe Jesus died not just for past sins but for current and future sins. I do not believe that after we are saved, we become sinless creatures.

I believe that even though the Holy Spirit comes into you, I believe you will still be prideful, etc until the Holy Spirit gives you the power to overcome those sins. Sure, sometimes you can quit cold turkey but that would matter if we only had a few types of sins. I believe that each of us has a multitude of sins because we were of this world.

Even in the way we speak to each other, we are heavily encouraged to sugercoat everything we say and lie to others in society. Isn't lying a sin? When I talk about sin, I'm talking about all sins, not just the major ones in society.

That Nee article sounds more like Buddhist/Zen philosophy than Christianity. If you stop trying you will succeed...

Jesus said to strive to enter in through the narrow gate.

Jesus said to be perfect.

Jesus said "go and sin NO more" - not "go and sin SOME more."

Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, rip it out! and throw it as far as you can!

If your hand causes you to sin chop it off!

Great peace have those who love Your law,
And NOTHING causes them to stumble.
(Psalm 119:165)

If we stumble then we must not love God's law! Why is that? God's law is perfect? The law requires us to love God and our neighbor. Of course we should do this! Of course we can love God and our neighbor! If we stumble it is because we choose to love ourselves MORE than others. We cannot serve two masters. If we love our selfishness we will HATE God's perfect law of love. And of course we will do nothing but stumble and grope about as in the dark.

I have taught you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in right paths.
When you walk, your steps will NOT be hindered,
And when you run, you will NOT stumble.
Take FIRM HOLD of instruction, do NOT LET GO;
Keep her, for she is your LIFE.
(Proverbs 4:11-13)

Do not think to say to yourselves "we are Abraham's children"

Whatever a man reaps he will sow.

If you go to the grocery store and buy junk food will you return home to find healthy food in the bags? Of course not. Whatever you spend your earnings on, that is what you will eat.

Whatever way a tree falls that is where it will stay.
If a man dies in his sin he will stay in his sin.

If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a PERFECT man, able also to bridle the WHOLE BODY.

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth NOT his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, THIS MAN'S RELIGION IS IN VAIN.

If we do not bridle our tongues then our religion is in vain. If we bridle our tongues then we can be perfect. We must choose between perfection and useless vain religion.

i have found nee to be very helpful while reading normal christian life, i don't know about that quote though.

i recommend brother to read this carefully on the sacrifice of Jesus, he died once for all.

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. hebrews ch. 9 kjv

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
hebrews ch. 7
very important he died once and for all and his sacrifice wa sufficient for all sins to those who are justified by him. He is on the mercy seat forevermore to make intercession for the saints.

@logic.

When is the last time you sinned?

Will you ever sin again?

No disrespect to you logic but can anyone backup what he is saying? It sounds nice but I need to see someone live like that to believe it. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE LIVE LIKE THAT.

It sounds like you can be PERFECT and flawless after you have the Holy Spirit in you. Or maybe even before the Holy Spirit is in you.

What about idolatry? I heard someone tell me that if you can't throw away anything in your life in that instant, it is idolatry.

Let's say you saved up for a TV or a guitar or even a nice meal. If you can't give it up in that instant, that is idolatry.