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A further work in Christian's life after conversion

M
murrcolr Feb 19, 2010

Gal 2:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The above scripture ask us a question “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” but it also lets us know that there is further work to be done in us after conversion.

Did we get it all at conversion well according to Paul we who believe in Jesus as Our Lord and Savior have begun but we haven’t got it all we are not perfected as Paul says and will never be perfected by the flesh…….

[b] For ye are yet carnal regeneration does not remove all sin [/b]

In 1 Cor 3:3 we see that there is still carnality remaining after conversion. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? Christians after being regenerated still have carnality in them. For ye are yet carnal, believers yes but carnal. Regeneration does not remove all sin.

Paul in 1 Cor 3:1 says that he could not talk to them as Spiritual but carnal and even goes as far saying that they are babes in Christ. So they are believers but carnal. Regeneration does not remove all sin.

Dr. Charles Hodge: "According to Scripture and the undeniable evidence of history, regeneration does not remove all sin."

The Elder Dr. Steven Tyng, Episcopal Church, New York. He said to those who were joining his church: "Though truly a child of God, you still carry with you a heart far from sanctified, a remaining sinfulness of nature in its appetites and propensities which demands unceasing vigilance. You cannot afford to relax your vigilance over these outgoings of your own sinful hearts."

What a declaration! "Children of God," yet “still possessing "sinful hearts."

Paul in Roms 7:25 gives us some insight to what happens after Regeneration with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. What he is saying is that he wants to please God but finds that there is a law of sin and because of that law of sin he is yet carnal sold under sin. Roms 7:14.

So to sum it up when we first believed this did not make us perfect little Christians and that there is a further work that needs to be done because there is carnality remaining in us.


[b]Is there a cure for the carnality [/b]

Romans 6:4-7 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Here we are told that we are free from Sin because our old self was crucified with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So there is hope we can be free from the remainder of sin (carnality) after regeneration but does Water baptism finish off any remainder of carnality after regeneration?

My own personnel experience would say it doesn’t deal the death blow to carnality but what does scripture say;

1 Peter 3: 21 the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh……So what baptism puts away the filthiness of the flesh. Water baptism is a symbolic burial by which the new Christian publicly declares they have died and that they are beginning a new life, in Christ but it’s not the baptism that deals the death blow to carnality.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

The prophet John tells us of another baptism that Jesus has this is the baptism with the Holy Spirit…

Does this baptism deal with carnality with the filth of the flesh?

Acts 15:7-9 after much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Peter implies that his heart is purified by saying "He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" but he also states that he witnessed the gentiles having there hearts purified by getting the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism with Holy Spirit is the baptism we need to clean our hearts and deals the death blow to the remainder of sin (carnality).

Ah you say but that the heart is not the old self (old man) that Paul speaks about in Romans 6………

Here’s a verse about the heart Jeremiah 17:9 the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Here’s a verse about the old self (old man) Ephesians 4:22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

How does God describe our heart he says the “heart is deceitful and desperately wicked " Jer 17:9

How does God describe the old man it is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts Ephesians 4:22

The heart and the old man are the same thing and we find that the Holy Spirit will cleanse our heart or remove the old man and it’s this Baptism of the Holy Spirit and only this baptism which will deal the death blow to carnality in the Christian life…………

Further to that with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit you put on Christ Galatians 3: 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Christ is the new man you have put on in Baptism of the Holy Spirit and he is created in righteousness and true holiness Ephesians 4:23.

When God started opening my eyes to a deeper work in a Christian life after conversion and started to talk about it I was challenged by a man he said “show it to me through the Apostles Paul’s life and teachings” which I hope I have managed in this post.

[b]A further work in Paul’s life after conversion [/b]
Lets look at Paul’s life we all know about what happen in Acts to Paul on the road to Damascus and his conversion…but what happened after conversion we know he spent at least 3 years in Arabia and Damascus…

Galatians 1: 17-18 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

So what happen there he tells us that that after he was called he found out the purpose it was to reveal his Son in him Galatians 1:16

This is a completely different work that comes after conversion, you see my friends the reason you are regenerated and called is so the Son of God can be revealed in you, this will and can only happen when the old man is gone and the new man is put on which is Christ where we are created in righteousness and true holiness in Him.

B
BeYeDoers Feb 20, 2010

Would you please define "regeneration".

M
murrcolr Feb 20, 2010

Would you please define "regeneration".

Regeneration in my own words would mean that you were once dead to God but now alive you have been born again I was aware that my sins were forgiven. This was not something I earned but because God sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross. Jesus paid the full price for my salavation and it was because of him I could now go to the Father, I have been adopted in God's family and am his child.

For myself it came when saw I need to see to change my way of life as I could not go another day living that way. I said a simle prayer "God change me, I am fed upbeing like this" he heard it and changed me.

B
BeYeDoers Feb 20, 2010

So what scriptures would you point to in defining regeneration?

If I could paraphrase what you said, "regeneration is change", would you agree? What exactly changes?

M
murrcolr Feb 20, 2010

So what changed?

Well when I said "God change me I am fed up being like this" what happened next as I lay down on my bed was a wind left me, after that a wind blew into me.

John 20:21-22 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So you could say this happened at this time

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

T
twayneb Feb 24, 2010

Colin: Great post brother. I might add that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the power source for victory in the life of a believer. Remember Jesus said He was going to give us power to be martyrs. This could be literal, but I believe refers more to the life laid down as a living sacrifice. After all, it is the living sacrifice that is able to lay down the physical body as well. KJV translates this "witnesses", but the greek is literally martyr. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that I am able to mortify the old man and live after and walk in the Spirit. I have found this to be so key to victory in my life. Thanks for the post brother.

Travis

sermonindex Mar 5, 2010

Amen brother!

sermonindex Mar 8, 2010

BeYeDoers asked

So what scriptures would you point to in defining regeneration?
Personally, I would define my [i]conscious co-operation with[/i] regeneration from the time I understood that unless I accepted the spiritual meaning and outworking of the death into which I'd (already) been baptised in Christ through the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:4), I would not experience the spiritual outworking of the 'walk in newness of life'.

What I mean is - one can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit without having any idea of how to define the gospel, or explain it from scripture. This was not the case in Israel after Pentecost. Jews knew that keeping the law had not brought them peace with God on the inside, yet those who had desired to please God on the inside found the power to walk in His life, after they had been baptised into the Holy Spirit through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for all sin. This happened, also, the context of frank idolatry in the Roman world around them, and covert idolatry amongst themselves, of which God had previously and frequently accused them (Jews), and many times destroyed one or anther participating generation.

This context for 'the gospel of Jesus Christ' is really important for every generation (of [u]all[/u] people - Luke 2:10), otherwise the very real wrath of God against sinners is minimised to such an extent that God is perceived as somehow owing it to man to save him, regardless of man exercising faith to get victory over sin (which is the purpose of regeneration).

Heb 10:1 - 25; Rom 8:10, [b]11[/b], 12, 13, 14;

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [i]and[/i] hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 [i]This is[/i] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


What do you think of these verses?

T
twayneb Mar 8, 2010

ByYeDoers, I would add to AlivetoGod's list the entire first portion of John chapter 3. The term "regeneration" is not in the Bible, but the concept of regeneration or rebirth is. Born again is regenerated.

Travis

M
mguldner Mar 8, 2010

This is something that I haven't really been exposed to. I believe Christ is my savior and Lord, how do you know you have recieved this second baptism? According to Pentecostals speaking in tongues is the physical evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit, but further study for me is pointing more to the only true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a changed life. If this be true I ask that you all pray for me to recieve this baptism for Christ glory. whether I recieve it or not I will praise Him for He is worthy of praise!

God Bless,
Matthew

K
KingJimmy Mar 8, 2010

Classic Pentecostalism teaches that there is a second work one can receive after one's salvation, whereby the individual is "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Pentecostals believe that when one is saved, one receives the indwelling and renewing work of the Holy Spirit. Later, one can receive the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, whereby one is empowered by the Holy Spirit for ministry and witnessing. Often the following illustration is used to demonstrate this:

If one were to take a glass of water, and fill it up, this would be an example of one receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation. But if one were to take the same glass, and submerge it in a tank of water, this would represent being baptized in the Holy Spirit. In this, one is said to be "filled to the overflow," whereby the ministry of the Holy Spirit isn't just effecting your personal salvation, but is becoming a stream of living water that makes a difference in the lives of others through you.

sermonindex Mar 9, 2010

Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view, is that the baptism by the HOLY Spirit makes us holy by uniting us with Christ in His death and resurrection where the old man is crucified and is dead, that is out of action and destroyed as the AV puts it. This is the evidence - a pure and holy heart and a dwelling with God face to face.

Unknown languages were spoken at Pentecost but that was specific for the time, where Babel was reversed.

One knows when one has been baptised because of the cleanliness felt within and the heart that praises God 100%. One then can live the overcoming life, filled with joy no mater what the circumstances. The proness to wander has been healed and we are now a pillar in the temple of the Lord God, no more going in and out but staying firm with the abiding presence of God with us.

Brenda

K
KingJimmy Mar 9, 2010


Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view...

It should be noted that there are some Pentecostal groups that came out of the holiness camp, and see there being 2 additional works after conversion. They see there being 1) Salvation 2) Sanctification 3) Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

M
mguldner Mar 9, 2010

My biggest thing with Pentecostalism is not really with the beliefs but the individual people I know that act in contradiction to this belief. If Christ be in them wouldn't they be different from the whole world? Of course this is a common consistency in most if not all denominations. I pray that God would bring back the Fear of the Lord on the Pulpits of America and send revival. We have forgotten who we serve a righteous and Holy God.

God Bless,
Matthew

B
BeingMolded Mar 9, 2010

These are all very good posts. I would like to add that after salvation by 'the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin" 1John 1:7. God sanctifies us by His Holy Spirit. We have to do our part to stay clean. 2 Cor.7:1..dearly beloved let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. We must cleanse ourselves from every sin of the body and spirit. This means breaking away from every ungodly compromise and continually resisting the desires of the flesh.
We must put to death the sinful deeds of the body. We must hate the very thoughts of sin.Proverbs 8:13"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil". The things of the world we must hate and the things of God we must love with all our heart ,soul, mind, and body. The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.

L
Lysa Mar 9, 2010


Your post was right on!! But this one quote stuck out to me...

BeingMolded wrote:
The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.

This is just from Lisa's perspective but to me this quote (on the surface) mislead's people.

The sins are diffferent... true, we won't always be plagued by smoke, drink, or cursing but there are so many other sins in our personality that needs to be redeemed that we would be like John, "I must decrease that He would increase" (John 3.30).

This war for territory (in us) is [b]never[/b] over, there are different devils on different levels but it's God who gives the increase over all these if we "love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with our God" all the days of our life (Micah 6.8).

God bless you!!

G
ginnyrose Mar 9, 2010

how do you know you have received this second baptism? According to Pentecostals speaking in tongues is the physical evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit,

This is Pentecostals, not Bible. The tongues one should really be concerned about is the speech. Read the book of James.)

but further study for me is pointing more to the only true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a changed life

You are right on.

A defining point in whether one is a Christian is how he lives, his character. Is there any evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this life? Does this person hanker after God and his holiness? People can talk but how do they act? Talk is cheap but holiness is costly. Revelation 2,3 talk about the sins that bedevil Christians which will result in them "having their candle being removed from the lampstand." This list hits pretty close home.

My understanding...

ginnyrose

sermonindex Mar 9, 2010

KingJimmy

It should be noted that there are some Pentecostal groups that came out of the holiness camp, and see there being 2 additional works after conversion. They see there being 1) Salvation 2) Sanctification 3) Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do you know which of the holiness groups believed in 2 additional works too? Thanks

Brenda

sermonindex Mar 9, 2010


Hi Wayne,

Just wanted to point out from the KJV, that within Titus 3:5 falls the clause 'by the washing of regeneration', which clearly harks back to both the water and the word (John 15:3; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22).

To BeingMolded, I would add 1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

To mguldner, you asked

how do you know you have recieved this second baptism?
I don't know if what I'm going to say will make immediate sense, but I want to draw your attention to some distinctions which may assist your Bible study on this topic.

First, regarding 'theology', this word is not in scripture. Theology is a human attempt to codify what can be known about God and His dealings with mankind, by taking information of all kinds (I mean, historical, spiritual, symbolic, etc) off the surface of the pages of scripture, and putting a particular complexion upon them, or interpretation of them.

What we [i]get[/i] from this does not necessarily represent God as accurately as God represents Himself in His written word, or as accurately as He communicates to the understanding through illumination of the written word by the Holy Spirit to the individual reader's/believer's heart. I would encourage you to attend to the latter more intently than the former.

:-)

Also, there is, I believe, a lot of confusion amongst Christians, arising from misinformation about, and misinterpretation of, the slow revelation of God through the Old Testament and the time of Christ's ministry on earth to and through His disciples, which was, incontrovertably unique, and, what it means to 'become a Christian' ever since Pentecost.

Gentiles, also, don't spend nearly enough time thinking about what it was to be Jewish, in the historical context of Christ's appearance on earth, which was the fulfilment of almost (if not) all unfilfilled prophecy until that time; Christ Himself coming as 'that Prophet' referred to by Moses (Deu 18:15) and Peter (Acts 3:22), and taking on many other names attributed to Him by subsequent prophets.

John the Baptist also, introducting baptism in water to the Jews, broke with all tradition that only Gentiles were filthy enough to require this ceremonial introduction to being accepted by God. Thus, the revelation of man's sinfulness was utterly unavoidable by that first wave of 'Christians', as was the need for a completely fresh start, akin to 'being born again' (1 Pet 1:22).

What I'm asking you to consider, really, is the perspective which scripture offers to your salvation (such as Heb 10:14, Rom 8:13, 1 John 5:21, 2 Tim 2:22 and James 4:7), as much as where you actually are in your daily attempt to walk in the light as He is in the light (1 John 1:7).

Without doubt we all have colossal crises in our walks with God, which usher in new eras of deeper fellowship with Him, and perhaps, the awareness of new gifts (graces/charismata) being bestowed, but unless you really never have repented, never have felt washed in His blood, never have felt the enabling and empowering of the Holy Spirit for faith and service, I would say press on and don't be distracted by a search for a second baptism - although you may indeed receive it unexpectedly. Just keep on with 'be being filled with the Holy Spirit' - Eph 5:18 (b).

T
twayneb Mar 9, 2010

Just wanted to point out from the KJV, that within Titus 3:5 falls the clause 'by the washing of regeneration', which clearly harks back to both the water and the word (John 15:3; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22).

Forgot that scripture. I stand corrected.

Travis

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