Despair

Hey folks, I'm new here and have been listening to some of the sermons here on and off for a while now.

There are many challenging messages. Many of you testify to being edified and greatly helped in your Christian walk by them (thank God for that).

I, on the other hand, often feel in a place of despair after listening to some (not all) sermons. I have struggled with the assurance of salvation for many years and every message that calls for testing ones place before God leaves me in a place of utter doubt and hopelessness.

One such particular example is Leonard Ravenhill. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he was a devout man of God and preaching in all sincerity. However, after listening to what he says (to be honest, I often can't even get to the end of his sermons) I nearly always feel utterly condemned, helpless, and feel that I'm on my way to hell because I'm not being holy enough. The list of his quotes on the thread above is enough to trigger panic.

I have cried out to God in repentance many times and indeed, some days I have more peace on the matter. However, I never seem to have the 'witness of the Spirit' or pass the 1 John tests that are often preached on (not fully anyway).

I love Jesus and want to be his disciple and am generally bored with what the world has to offer. However, when I look at myself (in the light of the living the NT demands) I see my obedience is way off the mark. You could say my life is a constant Romans 7 experience (which many preachers, Ravenhill included, would fiercely deny that Paul is talking about the Christian there).

Sometimes I wonder is the preaching itself too extreme? has it, in an effort to counter the false prosperity and cheap grace message, gone too far the other way?

I don't know. Can anyone resonate with my experience?
Thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry if his seems quite blunt but I am a desperate individual. I certainly don't mean to cause offence.

Mark

(PS I am not American and have never even been to the USA and so I am largely ignorant about the 'American Church'. That may or may not be worth noting)

Sure,
I've felt this exact same way while listening to some of the "super christians", particularly Ravenhill; there have been several times listening to him that I thought, "man, I'm not doing enough!". Listening to Charo Washer's testimony recently brought me under conviction... Anyway, it can be used by the Lord to correct us, but it can just as easliy be used by satan to bring us under condemnation. Remember what I said? I often felt like I wasn't DOING enough. that is where the danger lies, we should do all things out of a heart of love for Christ, not because we think we haven't worked hard enough to be a "good" christian. Somthing to consider.
Joe

Grace is freely given to help us and strengthen
us in our walk with the LORD. The Holy Spirit
empowers and enables us to follow and serve
Christ. We can't be holy without the Spirit of
GOD dwelling in us. Apart from Christ, we can
do nothing!! It is Christ dwelling in us,
living in us, working through us to accomplish
His will and work !!

Mark: I would like to share a few things that might help you. I too have been in the place you are in, and it was the word of God that brought me out of it.

Eph. 2:8-9 We are saved by God's grace, but it is received through faith. God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness are not a thing we must beg for, but a thing we must receive. We cannot earn it, not even by much repenting. We must simply humble ourselves enough to receive it. But we must receive it by faith. We cannot always rely on our feelings. I know many have put great emphasis on having the "witness of the Spirit" to salvation. The early Methodists held it almost as a doctrine. But faith does not always "feel" although it is assured all the same.

Romans 10:9-10 Some may disagree, but I have come to realize that there are no scriptures that say verbal confession of sin is a prerequisite to salvation. I find over and over again that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that we must believe that God raised Him from the dead, that we must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him, that we must confess with our mouths that He is our Lord. But find only in 1 John any mention of confessing our sins, and the context (John calling them his children) leads me to believe this was written not to the lost, but to those already born again. A heart of repentance is a must. We must be of a mind to turn from sin and follow Christ, but it sounds to me as if you have done that.

I personally believe you need to receive His forgiveness by faith, and don't worry about what your feelings are telling you. Your feelings are not reliable as they are part of corrupted nature. But the word of God is truth, and transcends our feelings. We walk by faith, not by sight.

It was in a time immediately following some compromise in my life that I struggled with forgiveness. I did not want to forgive myself. I had trouble accepting God's grace for me, and often had my feelings tell me, "surely you are not really right with God. You need to suffer some more. What you did was really bad." I finally had to accept His forgiveness by faith even when I did not feel it. The result was that the feeling, the witness if you will, came and I never looked back.

Travis

In reading your post I was moved with compassion for you. I know this is very difficult and robbing you of peace.

What stood out to me is your ephasis on doing. God is much more concerned about your being than your doing. When we walk with the Lord we are led by the Lord, and if He isn't leading then our doing is in vain. This is what Jesus said:

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Psa 37:23 The steps of a righteous man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

2Cr 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

You can be assured of your salvation. It is the devil who is always trying to convince we are unsaved or don't measure up.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Praying for you brother Mark...for the full assurance of faith, and the hope and Joy He brings us.

Dear All,

I'm am very grateful for your responses and some what encouraged. Thank you to those of you who even troubled to sent me private messages as well.

I am actually astounded how gracious you all have been - for some reason I was almost expecting harsh responses (to my shame, please forgive me).

Please know that I greatly value your encouragement and prayers. I will go on seeking the Lord, trusting that he has the grace to accept me, and change me.

Blessings to you all.

Mark

Sometimes I wonder is the preaching itself too extreme? has it, in an effort to counter the false prosperity and cheap grace message, gone too far the other way?

I don't know. Can anyone resonate with my experience?

This issue has been discussed a few times in the past. Yes, this has resonated with many of us posters. Your feelings are not necessarily a reflection of something wrong about you. I believe Ravenhill had a wonderful burning passion for revival of the church. He has much to teach us – maybe even through his failures. It sees that when his dream did not actualize as he had hoped, a root of bitterness took shape. Maybe this is what happened also to Martin Luther. After all, he encountered fierce resistance on all fronts against his wonderful new theology of grace. He did not expect that - and ended up lashing out in ways that are disturbing to us. He had envisioned a glorious church united in the love of God to take shape - and it did not happen.

It is tempting to criticize those who are befallen by cynicism against the church. But, perhaps it is more helpful to empathize with their underlying grief – because, that is what we experience in ourselves – and that puts us on common ground. It is, after all, about a deep loss of a hope. If we take that approach, we may be able to avoid the temptation of falling into despair and cynicism against others. (that’s a big struggle for me)

However, when I look at myself (in the light of the living the NT demands) I see my obedience is way off the mark.

You and I are being tested by the failings of others and also of ourselves. These testings are the fires in which our faith is being forged. As faith grows, our eyes shift from ourselves and fallen humanity to him. We find satisfaction and deep joy in Christ’s wonderful mercy and grace. And that is where love springs from.

Diane

I have to agree with all that Diane said here. Very strong wisdom.

He had envisioned a glorious church united in the love of God to take shape - and it did not happen.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

Dear Brother, we have all come short of the glory of God. No one can cast the first stone. No one. I still struggle as well. God forgives, I forgive myself but sometimes others refuse to forgive and usually they weren't even involved. But as I sit at the feet of my Savior, my Friend Jesus and learn of Him - all that matters is our love that flows to each other. It is He and only He who can change our heart and prepare us to be whom He wants us to be. The more we get to know Him, the more we fall in love with Him-the more we are humbled at His love and forgiveness for this sinner. As we seek Him first and turn our eyes on Him-the things of this world will become dimmer and He will become brighter bringing that joy, peace and love. Zac Poonen really encouraged me with his words that when thoughts or situations come our way we are to be as a child and cast our cares into the Fathers hands and go with joy and peace and rest that He is taking care of things. Just as a child. It really works. God really cares and is taking care of it all. We have lots of wonderful brothers and sisters here to fellowship with. You are dearly loved by the Lord-come as you are & the Holy Spirit will do the work in you as you sit and at the feet of Jesus. Peace, love & joy is yours.