How?

krautfrau said
During my recent readings, I have found a movement of 'holiness preachers' who are popular but they are not preaching the doctrine handed down to the saints and the results are that they gain a name for themselves but are not leading others into the pathways of holiness as understood by the great teachers in the past.

They are commendable in that they stress the need for holiness in the church, but they are preaching a gospel of self-effort.

Although their preaching leads others to examine themselves, and the immediate results are indeed better and godlier behavior, the results cannot be long lasting as the only answer to the old man is to crucify him and not tidy him up somewhat.

Worse though, they are a discouragement to those who have not 'settled on their lees' and need stirring up.

These ones already have a heavy burden on their backs and long to find out how to be holy because they have tried and failed, sometimes over and over and may be at the point of despair.

These are the ones that Pilgrims Progress speaks to, the ones who are like Christian with the burden on his back. Note that he is called Christian right from the start and that he is reading the word.

No-one can help him get rid of the burden and he feels condemned by it and knows that he does not have peace with God.

A believer did have peace with God though at one time when he first heard the gospel and came to Christ for forgiveness. He was filled with joy and felt cleansed but later he began to compromise with sin and found that he had fallen from his first love and now does not know how to get back although he longs inside for those days again.

And so he tries to discipline himself and do all of the things that he knows that are his duty but there is an emptiness inside and it does not feel real any more. He wants to be holy inside but how to do it escapes him.

If one continues to do his “duty”, which is faith, repentence & obedience (Luke 17:9-10), he will continue to be holy; set apart.

So he reads about others who speak about holiness to find the answer but they do not help him, they only can quote scripture to him and tell him that his position with Christ is above all. But he knows that he is below all and in a worse state then he was before he came to Christ.

Anyway, what is wrong with quoting scripture?
The thing he must do is to be a doer of the word, and not a hearer only, deceiving himself (James 1:22-25).

Yes, I just quoted Scripture, however, that is all I can do. I can not make him apply it to himself & his life. I can not make Him obey. God will not & can not either.

Now, concerning the reason for him being in a worse state then he was before he came to Christ; He now has the Holy Spirit in him so that he can't get away with the sin he did before he came to Christ.
Before Christ, the Holy Spirit wasn't grieved within him (Eph 4:30), but only convicting him from without.

The answer is that he must come once more to Christ and that his failure has been to enable him to do it

and to give him the strong desire needed even to cry out 'O wretched man that I am'.

If he still feels condemned, it means that he has no faith in Christ in order to have “no condemnation” (Rom 8:1). If that's not the case, then it means that he is still walking after the flesh & not after the spirit, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. The “law of sin and death” is his condemnation.

There he will find like Christian of PP that his burden will fall off him and roll into the ditch.

The cross is the selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and cause him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so affect our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance, repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19) ). The Atonement transforms and liberates through [b]reciprocation[/b]; when men obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

It is called the second blessing by some but it does not matter what term is used other than to see that it is necessary.

He does not need anyone to tell him what he should be like - he knows his failures well enough.

St John writes about this in the Dark Night of the Soul. We must be taken apart before the Lord can build us up

The fact that he is suffering shows the work of the Holy Spirit in him and He will continue to work until the man can no longer stand his old man and he will consent to having him on the cross.

A saved person puts off concerning [b]the former way of life[/b] the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts (Eph 4:22)... seeing that you have put off the old man [b]with his deeds[/b] (Col 3:9)

If one is still living concerning the former way of life with the deeds, he should be doing that which he is supposed to do. Which is what Eph 4:25-3 & Col 3:10-15 tells us to do; in other words, repent and stop sinning.

The Lord will lead every man there unless the man stops the work himself and turns away in unbelief like the children of Israel who did not enter the Promised Land.

It is good that these preachers increase the burden if by that means they will drive believers to Christ but they do not have the answer because they are the blind leading the blind and they do not know how to break the power and presence of sin.

Christ is the answer and He is waiting.

Logic, i agree that the answer is genuine repentance and faith in Christ(true conversion or salvation). But by your post it seems to me that you adhere to some sort of sinless perfectionism. If so, it is sad indeed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

osandoval said:
Logic, i agree that the answer is genuine repentance and faith in Christ(true conversion or salvation). But by your post it seems to me that you adhere to some sort of sinless perfectionism. If so, it is sad indeed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This means that one who is walking in/after the spirit as to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Rom 8:4 - Gal 5:16). This is done by love, which is the bond of perfection (Col 3:14).
Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has [b]fulfilled the law[/b] (Rom 13:8). However, A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another (John 13:34).

Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore [b]love is the fulfilling of the law[/b] (Rom 13:10). For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Gal 5:14). Bear you one another's burdens, and so [b]fulfill the law of Christ[/b] (Gal 6:2). but [b]the end of the commandment is love[/b] out of a pure heart and a good conscience, and faith not pretended (1 Tim 1:5). If you do this, you do well (James 2:8) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God loves his brotheren also (1 Jonn 4:21).

I like what Leonard Ravenhill says about this:

You say I'm preaching sinless perfection. You say, "Well, do you think you can get to a place where you can't sin?" I know nothing of the kind. It is not impossible (for a Christian) to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin.

Some bumper stickers say, "Christians Aren't Perfect, Just Forgiven"; they say, "Christians are nor sinless, they just sin less." Well, I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!

so to you what is the difference between sinless perfection and moral perfection?

osandoval asked:
so to you what is the difference between sinless perfection and moral perfection?

However, if you can choose not to sin once, then it is posible to choose not to sin all the time. Furthermore, if sin can not be avoidable, then we can't be culpable for it.

Are you culpable for your sin"?

Logic, from I've understood, sinless perfection means you can live a sinless life on this earth. I think that's the common understanding of that doctrine. So its the same as your "moral perfection". And that is heresy. If you think you can go on a complete day without sin, you are deceived, and the truth is not in you. You place a heavy burden on believers that you yourself do not and cannot keep. I hope and pray you will humble yourself and realize that you are not "morally perfect", but like the rest of us. I believe in repentance unto obedience, and growing in holiness. But your view is extreme and unbiblical, and the results are sad, to say the least. You develop a pharisaical, hyper-critical view point, in which you exalt yourself and look down on others. How sad indeed.

krautfrau asked:
What standard of obedience are you using?

Is it the ten commandments?

Notice that it doesn't say to "love the Lord your God with more than your..."

Is this your experience - that you have lived a sermon on the mount Christianity since the day you believed?

You see, most men find that once they come to Christ for forgiveness, they find that they can obey in order to live a life that one can class as not a sinful lifestyle, but they find that the day of forgiveness did not heal them of all of the damage which was done to their souls previously and they are left with certain problems which although will not stop them obeying most of the ten commandments, will not stop them from heart sins from the sermon on the mount and they will find difficulty for example in the area of lust, they will not want to look at women in this way but try as they may, they will think of sex when they see a very attractive woman or if they are faced with financial ruin they will revert back to feeling rather anxious or they will react with anger towards a brother who cheats or deceives them.

But you say you do not have these sins since you believed and if any do then your answer is that they did not come to Christ when they said they did.

And in the next ten years before I was entirely sanctified and able to live in sinless perfection, my father, son and father in law came to Christ too through my witness.

But praise God for your father, son and father in law.

Now many believers have a very similarly strong testimony and then found out that the power of sin had not been broken despite their desire to live in holiness.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

So I wonder why there is a difference in what people like you say?

The difference is that Sin is always a willful, volitional choice; and we are all culpable for our own decisions to sin.

Is it that the interpretation of what is sin is not the same?

For example what does a pure heart mean to you?

Matthew 15:19-20, Jesus said: out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, and blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.
Do not use this as your proof that no one has a pure heart.
God created our heart and it is included with the same things that God called creation "good" in the beginning.

Fact is that our heart is still good even today. God calling it "good" only means it to be useful, serving a defined purpose. This is what God meant by calling creation good.

God created our heart as good and it remains good. But it isn't created for the purpose for which some use it.

Therefore, that which comes out of the heart is from what we let come into it.
We fill it ourselves with evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Fact it that we are supposed to guard &/or to keep our heart with all diligence (Proverbs 4:23), for out of it are the issues of life.
Therefore, it is our fault that what proceeds out of it is evil...

We are supposed to fill it with good thing so that we may have a pure heart.

Is it a heart that does not have any evil thoughts?

Is irritation a sin?

The only other theory I can come up with is that there are degrees of service and for the higher ones believers are to have a higher degree of obedience and we are called accordingly.

The problem is that your theories do not match with real life for many.

Furthermore, sin is always repentable (sin must be able to be repented of). IF we can't stop from sinning, then how are we supposed to repent from those sins of which we can't stop?
Truth is, we can't repent from those sins of which we can't stop; therefore, they are not really sin.

I see that sinless perfection is a dirty word here but I will stand and say I am a sinless perfectionist and it does not mean that one can never sin again - one always can fall from that state, but if we are walking in the light then there is no such thing as unintentional sin.

osandoval said:
Logic, from I've understood, sinless perfection means you can live a sinless life on this earth. I think that's the common understanding of that doctrine.

And that is heresy.

If you think you can go on a complete day without sin, you are deceived, and the truth is not in you.

Notice the two surrounding verses of 1 John 1:8?
They say, "Jesus Christ cleanses us from [b]all sin[/b]."
&
"he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from [b]all unrighteousness[/b]."

Now, if I can't say 1 John 1:7 & 1 John 1:9 because, if I do, I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me; then why did John say verses 7 & 9?

The truth is that we can all say that we have no sin currently, but if we say that we have no sin on our record, that is when we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You place a heavy burden on believers that you yourself do not and cannot keep.

Care to rethink that last statement?

I hope and pray you will humble yourself and realize that you are not "morally perfect", but like the rest of us.

I believe in repentance unto obedience, and growing in holiness.

But your view is extreme and unbiblical

and the results are sad, to say the least.

You develop a pharisaical, hyper-critical view point

in which you exalt yourself and look down on others.

They may have power over sin and glorify God by living victoriously.

What is obedience to Chirst? Is it not to love as Christ loved us? Are we not to be conformed to the image of Christ? We can do all things in Christ, that is by His work in us. Without Christ we are nothing, must clanging cymbals and noisy gongs do works to be conformed to the Image of Christ. It matters not anything I do right or wrong, for works cannot make me any better than Christ in me has already made me. The main obedience we have is 1 Cor: 13 which is the better way. To Love all of the God head, and each other as Christ loved the Father and us learning obedience by the things He suffered, even the Cross, This is our obedience, not works of the Law, which are still nailed to the Cross. Works of Love, which Paul says it, the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.

In Christ: Phillip, learning love, with all my short comings
Inabilities depending on Christ as Paul, who will set me free from this body of sin.

What wonderful, Holy Spirit filled music; "Keep your eyes opon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the LIGHT of HIS GLORY and GRACE."

Praise God in Christ Jesus our Lord: Phillip

Christinyou said:
It matters not anything I do right or wrong, for works cannot make me any better than Christ in me has already made me.

Christ did not "make" you good by reckoning you righteous. He only deems you as righteous because of your faith. However, if you do wrong, it is only proving your faithlessness, thus making your unrighteous.

Doing right proves your faith. Just as faith without works is dead, so doing right (works) quickens yor faith.

This is our obedience, not works of the Law, which are still nailed to the Cross. Works of Love, which Paul says it, the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.

Our obedience is works of the (spirit of the) law, which is from love. This is the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.

Inabilities depending on Christ as Paul, who will set me free from this body of sin.

krautfrau said:
And yes, irritation is a sin

Does an itch irritate you?

What you are saying is that you have not yet been convicted of this sin.

What you are really saying is that in theory, we have the ability of not sinning, but during your walk as a believer, you did not manage it yourself but you admit that it was not unintentional.

However, it is not a "theory", because it has been proven.

Furthermore, if one can't stop sinning, the he is noy culpable of sin.

Well my friend, I got irritable with people and when God convicted me that it was sin I found that I could not stop it.

Before that I sailed on in blissful ignorance that it was not a sin. I also sailed on in blissful ignorance that evil thoughts that were in my heart were not sin, but here is nothing but purity in a pure heart.

People always know what's in their heart, because they put it there. However, it was your fault for letting them in there.
Don't say that you didn't put them in there by choice.

As I have been reading these posts, some observations and thoughts come to mind.

The focus of the discussion seems to be sin, and our ability to refrain from it. It is almost as if the assumption is made that sin is the issue, and that each new infraction must be "cleared from the books" so to speak or the person who committed the infraction will receive judgment for it either now, or more probably in eternity. It seems then that working off of this assumption we then must decide if it is only intentional sins, or if accidental sins as well are held to our account by God. If it is only sins of intentional commission, then we are left with the question of whether one can "choose" not to sin. If it is also accidental sin, then it seems we realize the whole argument falls apart (How could God expect us to refrain from that which happens without our decision?)and so we must not consider that possibility.

What if the answer is not A, is not B, but is C... None of the above?

Let me give you a story from personal experience to illustrate. As a young boy, I had a very hyper and annoying personality. Others saw me coming and did their best to avoid me. I delighted in pestering people, not out of meanness, but out of a lack of understanding that people did not like to always be pestered. I did not know how to relate to others well, and as a result suffered a great deal of rejection by them. As time went along and I carried these emotional scars with me. I was born again at 8, baptized in the Holy Spirit at 18, loved God with all my heart, and had an active and vibrant relationship with Him. I saw miraculous things occur in my life and in ministry. And yet, I still carried scars deep inside.

At the age of 33 or 34, God began to deal with this area of rejection in my life. Through His word, and through prayer and ministry of other believers, I was set free from a great deal of the pain and hurt of my childhood. This was no small thing. This fear of rejection had immobilized me spiritually and in ministry in a number of significant ways.

About a year ago, as I was preparing to help minister in a conference, these issues once again came to the front. I pulled some mature leaders aside just before the meeting and told them that I was really battling some things, and could they pray with me for a bit. We went aside into another room and before long I was weeping before them as the pain of this fear and these memories continued to come out of my life.

I told them the things I had been thinking about myself. I had been telling myself I was not able to do what I knew God had called me to do. I had been proclaiming to myself that I was a loser, that I did not see how God could use me, etc. Everything I said was in direct contradiction to what the Word of God said about me. I was in a great deal of self-focus (even self debasement can be pride as your focus is on you and not on God).

A mature leader looked at me and said, "I am not at all trying to belittle what you have been saying, but I must say something to you. You must accept that your attitude about yourself is self-focused and the things you have been proclaiming about yourself are in direct contradiction to what the Word of God says about you. This is SIN." This is true, isn't it? Pride is sin. Self-focus is sin.

So I present a question. It was not by accident that I had these attitudes. I was aware that they were not Godly attitudes. Do I now also possess attitudes that God will yet reveal to me as sin in His eyes? Has God ever dealt with you over issues that you were satisfied to live with, and in doing so shown you that they were sin? What of your eternal state then? I tell you, no one can live a life in this unregenerate body with it's imperfectly renewed mind and simply choose never to sin again. One may look at an obvious outward action such as lying and say, "If I choose not to lie today, I can choose not to lie tomorrow", and that person may have total success until they die at not lying. But what of the impure thought that is dwelt upon when you are alone? What of the time that you knew to do good, and you failed to do it?

I believe the issue is not culpability. To even debate whether we are to be held responsible for our sins is superfluous. Of course we are held accountable. The question was asked, "what is the power of sin." I believe we find the answer in 1 Cor. 15:56 and Romans chapters 1-8. The strength of sin is the law. The law concluded all of us under sin. The law is what caused us to be held accountable for our sin. One mentioned the ten commandments. As a born again believer with a better covenant (See the letter to the Hebrews), we are no longer under the curse of the law, including the ten commandments. We are not required to keep them to be right with God or pleasing to God. We never were. Sure, they restrained sin, but through fear of punishment. They were a ministration of death to us (See the letter to the Corinthians), condemning us and concluding us all under sin.

But Christ set us free from the curse of the law. What was this curse? Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things that are written in the law (Gal. 3:10). It was the curse of penalty. It was the curse of enduring the wrath of God for our sins. We are set free from that curse by the blood of Jesus. He became a curse for us. He became sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I was accountable for my sin, and Jesus provided the way by which that accountability could be removed.

You see, sin is simply not the issue anymore. Look carefully at the book of Hebrews. You will find that if one EVER turns back on salvation, he or she can NEVER be born again, again. If I commit a sin, I don't lose my salvation. My spirit does not immediately become dead once again to God and in need of regeneration again. Hebrews says I am perfected forever. Where? In my body? Hardly. In my soul realm (my mind and emotions)? No. But in my spirit I am perfected. Recall that the word talks about the spirits of just men made perfect. Hebrews 12:23.

This really bothers some people. They have a really hard time accepting this because it means all their good works and all of their avoidance of sin suddenly earns them nothing. They cannot see how it can be so. Surely I must pay for my transgressions. NO, that is the point of the cross.

So is sin OK? NO. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. We are dead to sin. Sin is deadly. To willfully sin one must harden his heart against the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Continual hardening of heart will cause you to walk away from the faith that you once had. It will destroy you. But not because it is a "new" infraction that has not been paid for yet. Rather because to do so causes me to take one step closer to turning away from my salvation. To cease to trust God for forgiveness and salvation.

Remember the God told David that he would remember our sins no more, that He would one day write His laws on our heart. If I obey the Spirit, the letter no longer applies to me. I will live more holy on accident walking in God's grace than I ever did on purpose by trying to keep the rules well. My Christian walk becomes an outflow rather than a regimen.

The focus of the Christian life is not, and should not be, "How can I avoid sin?" My life does not revolve around sin, or the avoidance thereof. In fact, I rarely ever give sin a second thought. I simply seek to draw nearer and nearer to God. I commit myself to obeying His word and His voice daily. I seek to learn how to live out of my spirit man, to walk in the spirit, and know that in doing so I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, because the two are mutually exclusive. When I fall short in this area, I am quick to repent (to turn from sin and walk in the spirit), and accept the fact that God has forgiven me for Christ's sake.

Sorry this was a bit long, but I felt I wanted to put some thoughts into the discussion.

Blessings all!
Travis

Oops, double post.

Thank you brother Travis for your post. very edifying to say the least.

To my friend Logic,

You seem to have a good amount is invested Scripture study under your belt. That is a valuable thing these last days. You have a lot of thought that certainly can be used for the Kingdom and I don't want to question your authority in the Scriptures. Might I offer something? Most posts on here that you gain involvement in seem to gravitate towards a contentious tendency. I don't really see the others conducting themselves in this manner. But I bring this up as a kind warning. The strife is not pleasing to God and we do end up with consequences to this kind of moral sin. Even if it's on a message board. I don't know if a church has been mean and nasty towards you or if there is another circumstance we here do not know about. But God has me praying for you lately. Whatever it is you're dealing with, don't worry, God can make it all better. If it helps, pray and listen to God's still small voice in this matter. And do hear the Lord (as He commands us to obey Him) and listen to see if God would have you post replies to people. Let me say it again, I love the zeal you have to see people corrected and challenged in their motives. Now it's time for another person to have a turn in providing healthy challenging you to for the purpose of Growth in the SermonIndex Body. Shawn.