Apostle Paul and the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

Hi,

My understanding that 'the doctrine of the Holy Trinity' was a response to heresy being suggested to the Church by outsiders, especially those who did not have the deep understanding of who God is which He had committed to the descendents of Abraham - Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [i]is there[/i] of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that [b]unto them were committed the oracles of God[/b].

So, in the scriptures I quote below, I just want to get you thinking.

Deu 6:4, in the Sacred Names Bible (KJV) states 'Hear, O Israel: YHVH our ELOHIYM is one YHVH:' In Genesis 1, ELOHIYM is the only name God gives Himself (It appears 32 times in that chapter), and in Hebrew, this plural is not limited to three.

For interest, consider Rev 3:1, Rev 4:5, Rev 5:6, Zech 3:9, Eze 43:2, Rev 1:15. Of course there is great symbolism in seven, and three, but perhaps modern Bible students are missing something that was immediately understood by the early Church?

There is also an interesting opposite in this verse: Matt 12:45.

Compare

Lev 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances... 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [i]were[/i] before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 [b]That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it[/b], as it spued out the nations that [i]were[/i] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [i]them[/i] shall be cut off from among their people.

and: Zech 13:2, in light of Jesus Christ's reference to 'this wicked generation'.

1 Cor 14:10, 1 Cor 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [i]is[/i] nothing in the world, and that [i]there is[/i] none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [i]there is but[/i] one God, the Father, of whom [i]are[/i] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [i]are[/i] all things, and we by him.

Acts 17 from the Sacred Names Bible elucidates further:
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 ELOHIYM that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is YHVH of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek YHVH, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of ELOHIYM, we ought not to think that the divinity is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance ELOHIYM winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Really, what I'm trying to show, is that 'the doctrine of the Holy Trinity' could be considered as a rather limited representation of ELOHIYM revealed by the whole of scripture, (which obviously, I have not quoted in full! ;-))and, by itself, does not express anything of our relationship with God through Christ, as He does, in John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [i]art[/i] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

10 For it became him, for whom [i]are[/i] all things, and by whom [i]are[/i] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [i]are[/i] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on [i]him the nature of[/i] angels; but he took on [i]him[/i] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [i]his[/i] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [i]pertaining[/i] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2)

It's not recalled which preacher was heard saying it, but it's amusing NTL:

"Most all of you do not even understand how two shall become one flesh, so let's stick to the basics."

*brazenly staring*
Have you ever considered God being a decanity?
Let's see:
1. Father
2. Son
3. The consolate (aka Holy Spirit)
4. the seven spirits of the Lamb (Rev. 5:6)

Have fun
with that one.

CIAO!

G
Edited: for one mispelled word

The Roman Catholic New Theological Dictionary makes a number of frank admissions regarding the creation of the concept of "the trinity."

Concerning the Scriptural teaching on the nature of the Holy Spirit, in its article, "Trinity," it acknowledges:

"As such, the Spirit is never
the explicit object of New Testament
worship, nor is the Spirit ever
represented in New Testament
discourse as interacting
in an interpersonal way
with the Father
and the Son."

In the same article, further down, modern Catholic scholars, discussing the background of orthodox teaching on the Trinity, confess pagan influences upon their theology:

" Christians... conversant with
the then dominant philosophy of
middle-Platonism seized the opportunity
to proclaim and elucidate the Christian
message in a thought form which was
meaningful to the educated classes of
the widespread Hellenistic society.
Confident that the God they
[the pagan Greek philosophers]
preached was the Father of Jesus Christ
and the salvation they proclaimed was
that of Jesus, the apologists adapted
much of the Hellenic worldview...
[Tertullian made] the first known
use of the term "trinity" (p. 1054).

Tertullian and Origen were Catholic theologians who flourished in the last part of the second century and the beginning part of the third. Neither of them was even born until well over a century after the founding of the New Testament Church on the day of Pentecost. They were the ones who laid the foundations of Catholic (and later Protestant) teaching regarding the Trinity and the nature of God.
The Bible nowhere describes God as a trinity. Rather, the Bible reveals the truth of a Family that takes its name from God the Father, i.e., the Family of God (Ephesians 3:14-15) into which human beings might ultimately be born at the resurrection (Romans 8:16-17).

CIAO!

g

Hallo Castling.

You wrote:
The debate over Trinitarian doctrine has been carried out too many times - especially by the likes of Philologos and JeremyHulsey.

g:
There is no interest in debate, however,there is interest in gaining a clear perspective of alternate views from my own experience relative to scripture: the big picture STS.
If somebody can show me from the scriptures that there is a trinity, i'm on board. This topic has never been a matter of discussion here.

Will have to look into the info on Philologos and JeremyHulsey.

c:
I'm not sure why you're quoting the Catholic dictionary, much less "modern" Catholic scholars.

g:
(See previous response and following)
i began to look into the idea behind the thread after reading it, and that is why it is used. Further research since has indicated clearly that the doctrine was indeed invented by the catholics. What better way to find out about anything than to first go to the source of any invention?

Why does anybody look for doctrinal ideas outside of what is written in the scriptures?

i suppose another question relative in analogy is: why would anybody watch the news on tv, then read the newspaper, then check on the internet regarding issues of interest?

c:
And what better way to have revelation of His Word, understanding of His being, and experience of His character, than to ask directly of Him?

g:NONE that are known here...especially when the source is unseen.

It is desired that you will note that in the book of John predominantly, (as well as the other gospels), Jesus often speaks in the grammatic tense known as 3rd person. Please consider this in references therefrom regarding the holy spirit

Please answer why God could not be a decanity?

...and in closing, some more food for thought:

The scriptures state that "my people shall know my name", yet the term "holy spirit" is merely a title.

If the holy spirit is a person individuated yet united with the Father and the Son, what is His name?

There are more where that came from, but we can take this one step at a time.

May God give us all further insight
into His nature and expressions
of the same,

Gregg
Col. 1:9-10,13-17

Ephesians 4:4

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

There are many more.....

Roger Wilco.

It appears that you have gone to a bit of work to foreward the above. Though the sermon may not be listened to, all the texts will be read and we can be back at it, hashing this thing out, thought it seems trinitarians are approaching the scriptures from a Westerners understanding, and believe accordingly.

We might never come to agreement on this issue simply due to this fact.

Whether or not this be the case, we each need to ask ourselves how actively has the Spirit of Christ manifested in our own lives.

God will not do anything in contradiction of His Word.
If one does not experience God through His Spirit akin to that which is testified in Acts, somebody is believing the wrong things. God never honors that which stands in opposition to the way he has, does, and will reveal himself.

Ps. 138:2

CIAO!
g
II Cor. 5:16

Q.E.D. ?

Over and out.

-STOP 30-