IHOP is to be questioned.

K

knitefall Mar 24, 2010

I need an extra eye on something. Someone has been sending links from the IHOP services. I have watched for weeks now and I am just not sure I know what I'm looking at. He puts what he sends in a good light but I am not that much convinced any longer.

Now I am not one to call out ministries but I think we ought to take a look at one. There has been this IHOP "awakening" going on for months. A buddy sends me links to various healings and sayings they have. The services last many hours during the day, have loud vulgar rock music (but fitted with the words of Jesus), people shaking their heads back and forth and bodily gyrations. Also there is talk of gold dust and even one man gave an account of reaching into God's Power and it zapped him and was a hurtful thing. Today, some woman got up there and began ushering some spirit of Diana or some name like that. It's like the kids act drunk at times and others stoned. To me, these are being trained to easily come under the use of the anti-christ or an A.C. figure. I believe some call it "Babylon Children" but not sure. Mike Bickle, the cussing preacher and other emergent figures are there. They pray for fire to be in a person. That usually would sound good to me but through watching this, it seems there is some sort of strange fire.

There isn't much any preaching about anything, only a bunch of young people with guitars and drums talking about shallow religious things. I cannot be sure but I really don't believe the Lord moves upon that. There is no Jesus and Him Crucified that signs will follow. Yet many say they are healed every night... sounds fishy. Thoughts?

S

sojourner7 Mar 24, 2010

But wicked people and impostors will go from
bad to worse; deceiving others and being
deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

H

hoohoou Mar 24, 2010

It's like the kids act drunk at times and others stoned. To me, these are being trained to easily come under the use of the anti-christ or an A.C. figure. I believe some call it "Babylon Children" but not sure. Mike Bickle, the cussing preacher and other emergent figures are there. They pray for fire to be in a person. That usually would sound good to me but through watching this, it seems there is some sort of strange fire.

I think you have it figured out. I get a channel on cable called "godtv". It's all the same stuff. Preachers talk for an hour and tell nothing but stories of weird manifestations and then they have a healing line and people say how they were healed of something or other.

It's a mockery.

C

Ceri Mar 29, 2010

Knitefall - Absolutely agree with you here.
I have also watched some of it and it leaves me cold.
It is so like the Toronto blessing/Todd Bentley scene.

People who have entered into the scene of these meetings are often told to completely disreguard any misgivings, doubts and fears they may feel and just jump straight in - don't even question or think about anything - just accept everything as being of God! This we were constantly told to do at the time of the Toronto outbreak.
God is not in this at all, He tells us to have our mind renewed - not removed!

Be aware that 'gifts' such as healings, tongues, prophesy etc can be counterfeited - but you cannot counterfeit the fruit of the Spirit. That is why we are known by our fruit - not by the gifts!
Jesus Himself says 'many shall say to me "Lord, Lord we prophesied in your name, we cast out demons in your name" and I shall say to them "depart from me you workers of iniquity - I never knew you!' - your works were not authorised by me.

In the last days there will be many strange signs and 'lying wonders'and deceptions will be so cleverly disguised as the truth, we have to be aware of the packaging and as you say 'the false fire'

Thank God that he has given you the discernment to see through this and pray that He continues to do so for you and protect you against these last days deceptions.
It breaks my heart seeing so many people fall into these traps. There is none so blind as those who will not see or refuse to see the truth!
Study the word, it will guide your feet and be a light to your path, the Holy Spirit can then prompt and bring to your remembrance Gods word as you need His guidance.

I thank God that I had my godly upbringing and grounding by strong Christian parents and grandparents to fall back on when the Toronto blessing first hit our church.
We knew nothing about it or what was happening to our then church, but I knew without a doubt that it was a wrong Spirit and was then able to help my husband to stand strong in the fight we then endured, with complete confidence and assurance, until being forced to leave.
Our stand at that time also warned and protected my family Church, which became an oasis and a place of safety for us and to which we have now moved back to.

Knitefall - keep standing strong! and be an example for others to follow.

S

Solomon101 Mar 29, 2010

Rather than just read posts of folks that are simply expressing their opinion of the week....how about we actually judge IHOP by their own words? That sounds like "doing unto others AS WE WOULD HAVE THEM do unto us". That is how we would want to be treated isn't it?

The Following is directly from the IHOP site.....

Begin Quote

About the International House of Prayer Missions Base

On May 7, 1999, the International House of Prayer Missions Base (IHOP–KC) was founded by Mike Bickle and 20 full-time “intercessory missionaries” who cried out to God in prayer with worship for 13 hours each day. Four months later, on September 19, 1999, our prayer and worship expanded to the full 24/7 schedule. IHOP–KC is an evangelical missions organization that is committed to praying for the release of the fullness of God’s power and purpose as we actively win the lost, heal the sick, feed the poor, make disciples, and impact the seven spheres of society (family, education, government, economy, arts, media, and religion). Our vision is to work in relationship with the larger Body of Christ to serve the Great Commission, as we seek to walk out the two great commandments to love God and people.

Our new IHOP–KC ministries and outreaches include increasing our current inner city outreach with a mobile food truck and on-site food distribution, discipleship programs, a health clinic, provision of food and clothing for our children’s outreaches, big brother and big sister programs, and an adopt-a-block program. Our other new outreaches include Crisis Response International that provides disaster relief, Orphan Justice Center to serve orphans and children at risk, Hannah’s Dream adoption agency, Exodus Cry helping victims of human trafficking, and our Women’s Life Center which will provide homes and restoration programs for victims of human trafficking, domestic violence, prostitutes who respond to the gospel, and a crisis pregnancy center and birth mother homes to help women who refuse abortion and choose life.

We believe ministry is done best when our lives are rooted in prayer and worship that focuses on intimacy with God, as we intercede for a breakthrough of the fullness of God’s power.

End Qoutes.

In addition to all the above mentioned ministry they also have 24/7 worship and intercession going forth from this place.

I have also spoken personally with dozens of folks there at the outpouring and have found them filled with repentance for themselves and the nation. I have found then full of zeal for God and a desire to see Jesus exalted and His Gospel proclaimed to the ends of the earth.

It is incredible to me the flippancy with which negative accusations are thrown out by folks with the virtually NO first hand knowledge of IHOP.

I would not wish to be seen by the Lord as a false accuser of His bretheren. In all honesty read again the heart and ministries going forth from the IHOP and then tell me what you are doing in comparison to them. If all you are doing is speaking badly of anothers ministry then it is apparent to me who is actually in error.

sermonindex Mar 29, 2010

IHOP has a long history of embracing unbiblical and wild manifestations, calling it all the Holy Spirit. Such as:

1. Touching people and knocking them over en masse in power displays and "impartations" of strange "anointings".

2. Wild convulsion like shaking on the floor, rolling around, growling like lions, barking like dogs, etc.

3. Anti-Scriptural visions and dreams, third-heaven experiences talking with departed saints, etc.

4. The "Jesus as lover" heresies perverted out of the Song of Solomon (and experiences of sexual interactions with this other "jesus" in visions and dreams)

5. Constant promotion of angels, and of visions and encounters with angels (without testing the spirits). -Even financial angels.

6. Gold dust and diamonds falling from the cieling and oil appearing on hands.

7. Trance-like worship beating pagan drums and moaning and shaking in such trances.

8. An extremely high emphasis on supernatural experiences and miracles without testing the spirits.

9. Very little repentance preaching among the leaders associated with the movement, no heart searching words that prick to the heart and bring about sound conversions.

10. Ear tickling prophecies, many of which have been documented and proven false.

The list could go on. I have read numerous testimonies of people, by their own words, who contracted demons through IHOP and associated movements and were tormented for a long time trying to get rid of them. You can probably pull up some of their testimonies online, published by Andrew Strom's email list.

I walked into an IHOP church a number of years ago and immediately discerned perverse spirits in that place. This was when I knew nothing about the movement and had nothing to go off of but the witness of the Spirit within me. I found out soon afterwards that many there were struggling with homosexuality, pornography and other sexual sins, and affairs were ripping apart the church.

At best, there is a tremendous mixture of true and false miracles, but there's so much false, we have no business of having anything to do with it.

Run for your life.

M

Miccah Mar 29, 2010

Solomon,

I have personal friends that attend IHOP currently and in the past. I have a very close brother of mine on one of the IHOP worship teams. A sister that attended my house church is currently attending IHOP.

That being said, I feel that it is ok to question anything and everything that mere humans say is an "outpouring of the Lord". I could care less if it the people claiming an outpouring is a brother/sister from IHOP, or brother Paul Washer. Everything should be tested in the furnance.

You say you know folks at IHOP and have first hand conversations with them... I do as well and continue to do so. So I am pretty sure that we can both say that those at IHOP would agree that all should be testing what they are doing. IHOP does not wish to be held to a different standard then others. In fact, i believe that they would embrace the questioning.

If it withstands the furnace, then let it be. If not, then pray for eyes to open and the blind to see.

S

Solomon101 Mar 29, 2010

Miccah,

You posted,

So I am pretty sure that we can both say that those at IHOP would agree that all should be testing what they are doing. IHOP does not wish to be held to a different standard then others. In fact, i believe that they would embrace the questioning.

I fully agree. Your statement is absolutely true.

In my post I am referring to the practice of folks, often times posting on the forum here at SI, to judge others without anywhere near the knowledge or information to do so.

I think we would agree that all things need to be sifted and tested through the grid of God's Word. However, in looking at past threads concerninng IHOP, and a couple of posts in this thread, it is apparent that is not what is happening. Many posts are just blanket opinions based on virtually nothing other than assumption, fear, misunderstanding, a lack of Biblical understanding of the supernatural, or sometimes just plain old jealousy. It appears that many of the "heresy hunters and condemnation specialists" do not believe anything happening is from God... unless it is what is happening with them.

I must say it is disheartening to see those who have no miracles, power, or demonstation of the Spirit in their ministries or lives condemning as, "false and deceptive", those who do. Again, the message must be sifted by the Word. However, if a person honestly does that then they will be hard pressed to find fault with IHOP's message.

In fact it seems that one of the real issues is that some folks simply want to condemn anything that is emotional or supernatural. It scares them. It inevitably brings up cries of, "watch out..there are false miracles". Well I agree that there can be false miracles...thus we sift the message by the grid of scripture. However, the ones I have seen condemning others as having , "false miracles", never seem to have any "real" ones of their own. In essence they never produce the goods so they cast doubt on those who do.

Perhaps I paint with to broad a brush. It may be as simple as that many posters here are cessationists and they have never experienced the power of God. Maybe it really boils back to that.

I must say though, if Paul came, "not with enticing words of mens wisdom, but IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND POWER", how much more sorely are we in need of it. Those who are always condemning seem to think no one has a miracle manifested except the devil! If there are false miracles, and the critics are so in the "right", then why aren't the critics demonstrating real miracles to contrast with? It seems those who are the critics only have faith in the devil to do miracles... sift that through the grid of scripture and see what it comes up as.

Miccah...if you read all of this thanks for bearing with my rant. You will have been most gracious. It is all said with a heart to see God move in an undeniable and supernatural way. I agree fully with your post. You have the balance.

Godspeed friend!

G

ginnyrose Mar 29, 2010

Solomon, why do you not go back and read the original post on this thread? The writer was not commenting on hearsay.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

sermonindex Mar 29, 2010

HI Guys,

Some of you may be surprised, or maybe not :) that for the whole of last year I attended IHOP. I am no longer there but feel reasonably qualified to give an opinion on this thread. For the most part, I saw nothing different that what one would expect at a Pentecostal church. There was the odd strange person, manifesting noise and attention attracting activity, but for the most part there was simply praising, preaching and prayer. I did not particularly care for the worship, finding it to be soulish, but I could say that about countless churches that I have visited. The preaching, for the main part, was very good, especially from Mike Bickle. Lou Engle was the strangest of all the preachers I heard there. I believe that it is their underlying teaching that it the most dangerous. Since the late 80s, Mike and his aquaintences, have considered themselves to be special, prophets for the end of times. They have succesfully convinced the mainly younger people that attend the church, that they too are part of a special generation. Its a form of dominionism that they teach. I believe it to be a dangerous teaching, although it is quite subtle.

I also believe that the leadership have zero discernment when it comes to the likes of Todd Bentley and so on. They would steadfastly refuse to condemn someone like Todd but they would be unapologetic for that stance. There is also a strange mixture of politics mixed into their teachings which plays into the dominionism, although many of their stands would be appluaded by many on this site. Its not so much what they believe politically per-se that it the problem, its because they believe that political influence is important to their future role in the world that makes it significant.

IHOP definately has a slightly cultish feeling to it, not because they control "their people," but because they believe themself to be spiritually elite, although I am very sure that the leadership would deny that. These guys do many things well, but ultimately I believe they will be a problem for end time saints..........brother Frank

sermonindex Mar 29, 2010

When we consider error in the church at large, we must first consider what the standard is that we compare the fault with the true. In the christian realm, it is always the Bible, the word of God, that is the infallible authority in these realms, and the deeds and fruit that follow.

We must also understand that the nature of deception is always mixture...a counterfeit; a big hunk of truth, mixed in with portions of the lie.

IHOP is that. We derive the pure doctrines of the mechanics of the church from the writings from the Lord Jesus, and the apostles. Paul is undeniably chief in setting these doctrines forth, and remember, these doctrines always dovetail into the operations of the LOCAL CHURCH!

There is no variation from this in scripture. Pastors, Elders, overseers, bishops....I like Shepherds...are ordained by the Lord to feed, protect, and manifest Jesus's authority so that the Spirit rules within the church and is not quenched or sullied.

IHOP is not a local church; it is a para-church; a movement based group. Therefore, it has chosen to adapt it's own rules and methods that enhance it's mission. It's mission is to create a super-spiritual clan that will also be an offering of worship to the Lord in the purist sense; 24 hour, 7day, yearly and consistent worship until Jesus returns. Mike bickle believes that he has been commissioned to build the:

"THE RESTORATION OF THE FALLEN TABERNACLE OF DAVID"

ACTS 15:13
13. After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14."Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.

15. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16. AFTER THESE THINGS, I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17. SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18.SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

19. "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

We see that the true restoration of the Tabernacle of David is simply the Church manifest; the body of Christ; the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is the local church, in all of her weakness and mercies, extending a Spirit filled hand to each other and to the world, until we all grow up into the fullness of Christ. She is weak, and yet strong...filled with infants, teen-agers, marriage troubles, bills, work and taxes; yet, at the same time, holy and powerful, as Christ dwells in Her. The weak have a home in Her.

Not so in a monastic order.

[ I will continue in 2 IHOP QUESTIONED.]

sermonindex Mar 29, 2010

2.

IHOP?

IHOP is that. A neo-monastic order...with many of the accoutrements of the Catholic counterparts...the cloister; the nunnery; the MONASTERY, WITH ALL OF THEIR ERRORS! The super-spiritual society...the cutting edge, the Elijah generation.

1. Contemplative prayer. It is pagan in custom and historically. It is the Babylonian counterfeit to true prayer. It is inward, promoting mantra and guided imagery. It teaches to empty the mind, rather than pray by faith through the son of God seated at the right hand of the Father. It is pagan, and faithfully promoted by IHOP. It is a major error.

[ also aesthetic pagan practices such as "speech fasting", along with the "fasted lifestyle". It's Babylonian Catholicism.]

2. Rote, or repetitive PRAISE, done as exercise, rather than SPIRIT led by faith. Teams do SETS...over and over and over....usually 30-40 hours a week. This is deemed as WORSHIP, and it is not. It is aesthetic legalism; a counterfeit to true, free and often spontaneous praise...stemming from the heart, not the will, and a legalistic compulsion.

[2.] ...Much of this stems from the Catholic sub-doctrines of living a sacrificial life...the more you sacrifice the better. [ ultimately become a monk or nun]...always give more...and the more sacrifice the more pleasing you are to God.

[ IHOP fellowships Catholics, and particularly the "prayer cloisters" around the world. I have witnessed Nuns and "fathers" on stage with Mike in the early days of IHOP.["Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of DARKNESS!"]...again...experience trumps doctrine..]

At IHOP the devotees are constantly flattered as BEING PRAYER MISSIONARRIES"..."FORERUNNERS"...and "FRIENDS OF THE BRIDEGROOM"...and bannered as the "one half of one per-cent" who devote all to Jesus....The super-spiritual few...like Elijah, and John the Baptist. It always promotes "HIGH SPIRITUALITY" and ends in "COLD LOVE", as all monasteries do. It is bondage, but these kids believe it. It freezes their spiritual growth in pride; believing they are something they are not.

3. The taking of Oaths. This is forbidden in the bible...and is used to control. It is actually called sacred by the IHOP mandate, and it is a document that you must sign, to be a part of her. IHOP demands that you swear this oath, with your signature. This controls the prayer room, the musicians, and the teams that perform. Often it is for a period of time..several months, a year, or whatever the requirement for the level that you buy into.

4. [ related to 3.] The selling of the ministry. You must pay IHOP to be there...and more or less, according to the level you attain. Beginners pay as much as 4500 dollars for a six month program. You must pay for teaching..and certain classes. The "students" are urged to solicit there friends and families and previous local churches for the cash, which in turn is handed over to the Ihop leaders.

The students are taught the methods of the fund raising missionary. Letters, pleas and speaking trips to get "supporters" on board, all for the "prayer missionary" that you have became. Professional beggary.

5. Women in authority over men. This is strictly forbidden in scripture, but yet is common practice at Ihop. There is a permissive attitude that has placed several women as leaders and teachers at IHOP; The "prophetic" especially, along with other departments. This has ,in my opinion, brought much confusion, to add into the already chaotic and cold.

sermonindex Mar 29, 2010

IHOP summary.

Mike Bickle is the Father of IHOP. there is no dispute about this. He believes that he is commissioned to establish ihops around the earth, as a birthing mother; IE; KC-IHOP.

I consider Mike Bickle a friend, though am I by no means close to him; though I know him. I have communicated with him some, and I believe that to some degree, Mike believes that I hear from the Lord.

However, there is no direct line of communication with him at present; no e-mail, no address or telephone. I would admonish him as I have in these posts; if I could.

Mike is a man of integrity, as much as I have seen; of impeccable Godly character. No, Mike Bickle is not a "cusser", nor immoral in any way. I believe that he is sincere, and believes Ihop is in the center of the will of God.

Mike embraced the Catholic mystics long ago, as the "deeper life" saints; the real devotees to Jesus. Herein is the roots of apostasy. It's, as I have said, Mixture. The Catholic mystics heralded profound experience as their banner to Christian greatness. They speak of bliss, and transcendent power, and glory. Mike reasoned that to gain their experience, you must adapt their methods.

Thereby the monastery, Ihop, and Babylon enters. Jezebel is worshipped as Mary, the demons as saints, the Pope as satanic Caesar.....[ all hidden in the symbolism at Rome..]but the ends justifies the means. It is a spirit.

The end is the completely devoted Elijah company, and the fallen tabernacle of David established by them.[24/7/365 "worship" ] "Lets not let some archaic doctrines slow us down!" "IHOP IS NOT A CHURCH!"

It has been said that good intentions pave the roadway to Hell. Many, many thousands of young saints have been wounded and disillusioned at Ihops around the world. They come wanting to sell out to Jesus, with all of their heart, and find a cold, legalistic methodology that always keeps them just a fingertip away from finding the fullness of Jesus...so they strive on....a little more sacrifice....

No, they are not open to correction at all; hundreds have tried. It's the movement crusade mentality. "All detractors are just trying to derail us from our purpose...the ONE THING! we were created for!"..[ they hear it every day..]

Only the Lord can deliver IHOP into a pure purpose. I would like you to consider this. If the church, is not a home to the weak and helpless, it is not the church. The local church is the one Divine vehicle God has anointed to save unto the uttermost the weakest and smallest. Faith works by love, and Jesus always went to the one, the singular, as being as important to Him, as the crowds.

But with the weak...the working man who must labor 6 days a week to support his family, who cannot devote endless hours in music and prayer...with the house-wife who must attend to nursing her young, cooking and cleaning, to keep her head above water.....7 days a week....with the weak minded , with the untalented, with the aged and infirmed.......TEENAGERS , and the pressures of survival..

This is what the church is made of. People who must earn a living..who cannot abandon all to cloister..to be holy.

IS THERE A WAY???? "AM I LEFT OUT???"

IHOP by inference would say that you are. The bible, and the history of the remnant church would emphatically say that you are not. That is why the lord made his true church the way he did. Whosoever may come, "LET HIM COME!"

CHILDREN TOO.

K

knitefall Mar 29, 2010

"...they will be a problem for end time saints..."

That is confirmation for me. I made mention of this to the one who is attending these meetings. I've followed them for a while and it's so subtle in opening the doors for other unholy spirits to creep in. Little phrases and suggestive words are injected. many things said and done are of the appearance of wholesome! And that's great. But I believe that if the whole Gospel is not preached, God cannot bless disobedience. These many miracles and such are like the signs and wonders many will seek after. They wouldn't even know the True Messiah if He stood before them.

Let us not fight, but pray the Lord would open the eyes and reveal the truth of what's going on there. And that God's hand of Divine Protection would be there with those many [under trained to discern the events and testimonies] young adults.

I

IWantAnguish Mar 29, 2010

Mmmm pancakes.

o.O

X

Xaris4u Mar 29, 2010

Dear Knitefall
I've been a devoutly evangelical pastor for 25 years - devotee of A.W. Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, Keith Green... I've also been to IHOP numerous times since 2001. Look deeper and longer than the current "outpouring". The leaders are not putting their emphasis on a "wave" of God, they're investing in people cultivating Phil. 3:10 lifestyles of prayer and fasting that are bearing fruit in missions and servanthood for the sake of Jesus. YWAM and Campus Crusade for Christ have both sought out IHOP leadership to partner with them in revamping their discipleship training. IHOP is the real deal! But not because of "manifestations"... Because their eyes are steadfast on cultivating lifestyles that are authentically built unto putting the first commandment in first place.
God's great grace to you as you continue in that same spirit brother!
JSB

X

Xaris4u Mar 29, 2010

O sojourner 7
Look longer and listen deeper... The leaders at IHOP are bent on Phil. 3:10 and Sermon on the Mount lifestyles. They're not focused on the momentary "visitation" of the Spirit. They're abiding passionate is to cultivate Psalm 27:4 hearts in servants of Jesus.
God's abundant grace to you as you pursue the same brother!
JSB

K

KathleenP Mar 30, 2010

If the music program, with all its instruments etc. were removed, would IHOP still remain?

There is power in music that many still fail to comprehend. A former witch I listened to, warned about this sort of thing being introduced into the churches. Is it not evident as they move as one in their worship, they appear under a spell?

I am convinced without a question, there is a bigger problem here than we would want to even know. We've got to pray for discernment in everything, no matter how sincere the motives seem.

K

knitefall Mar 30, 2010

But it is so obvious that there is NOTHING they are being given to win the lost to Jesus. What are they being taught? To bring people to IHOP for the purpose of relation with seducing spirits. I usually don't talk like this but my brother is there.

And many others that are not hearing the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Atoning Work as the answer for all our needs. Anything else is simply flesh-read the Bible, it's been there the whole time! :]

Anything but Faith in what Jesus did for you personally on the Cross, is going to grieve God and not please Him. It's the Key to a proper Christian Walk. All else will result in works of the flesh for Victory.

Your Brother, Shawn.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2010

I am reading a very old book that I bought recently at a used shop and the writer is telling the stories about how revival came in his day in the 1840's & 50's. I have read several chapters and the theme running through that is repentance, and praying until you get the flow of the Spirit. He spoke of preacher who had grown cold who substituted programs for the Spirit of God. What I was reading is exactly the same condition as we are in today. "Nothing is new under the sun". He'd meet with these preachers and if they were willing, they'd pray until God met with them and things became different in their services. He writes about the love of God being the foremost important aspect of the Christian walk. If the love of God isn't present in a persons life, soul winning would be a chore, but with that love, he had witnessed the Spirit of God moving upon people with ease and people dropping to their knees repenting without any prompting from the minister.

I don't know about you, but that's what I want.