What does the Bible really have to say about the secular Nation-State of Modern-Israel?

Brothers,
Why are we assuming that the promises concerning "Israel" in the Bible are all referring to a modern day, secular nation-state that happens to be called Israel? I think that there are too many scriptural acrobatics that one has to do to make the whole thing fit together and therefore, I don't see this an honest assessment of Biblical truth... it strikes me as interpreting the Word of God through today's newspaper, if you know what I mean.

I know that you'll all agree that Galatians 3:7,28&29 (in addition to several other places that we could mention) indicate that in Christ all racial, biological, and ethnic barriers have been broken down and that a new covenant family has been raised up - a New Israel if you like... This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Unless I am very much mistaken this was the position of all of the Protestant Reformers and therefore we ought to think through this Israel-issue not only in light of Biblical truth but also in the light of the traditions of our protestant faith.

In addition to this, the secular nation-state of Israel is primarily in need of the gospel. They are a Christ-denying nation (2% Christian and 37% athiest or agnostic)... It therefore strikes me as odd that so many of my evangelical brothers would view modern-Israel as partners in the same battle.

I wish I had more time to elaborate, but I don't. In passing I would like to point you to the sermons of Art Katz on issues relating to this. I will say the following in brief:

The modern secular state of Israel exists so that God might ultimately punish it and bring the Jews to salvation at the end of the age. This is in keeping with the pattern He established in Deuteronomy 28-31, and fleshed out in intimate detail through the writings of the prophets. As Paul explains in Romans 11, a partial hardening has happened to the natural branches, so that we as Gentiles might be recipients of God's mercy. However, there is coming a time yet again in the future, where the remnant of the Jews who survive Jacob's trouble will be converted. The Deliverer WILL take away the sin of Jacob in the last days, and bring about a national salvation of the remnant of the Jews who survive that time. And so ALL of Israel at that time, will be saved.

But this will not come about without God taking up His great controversy with the nations. Be careful of spiritualizing the writings of the apostles and prophets away, as has been common in Reformed circles, so as to make the Scriptures one big meaningnless spiritualized allegory. For God does have a calling and purpose for the unregenerate nation of Israel. But the fulfillment of that purpose still awaits for the appointed time of God's mercy towards unregenerate and national Israel.

Splendid!

I think that your mentioning of Galatians 4:22-31 (although fairly dense material) is right on the money... v.26 especially. That whole argument is Paul’s final blow to the “Pro-Israel” contingent of his day.

Personally, I really feel that the whole Israel debate that is effecting a large portion of American Evangelicalism is nothing more than a red herring and a distraction with no REAL Biblical or historical validity behind it whatsoever.

And the contention surrounding this issue has pushed evangelicals into a certain political box thereby limiting our ability to credibly spread the gospel.

I pray that all of our brothers would set the "We support Israel" agenda aside and get on with the "We proclaim Christ and Him crucified" agenda.

Dear Brother,
I find it perplexing that you say that Reformed circles have spiritualized “the writings of the Apostles and Prophets away.”
How have Reformed evangelicals done so?
I would suggest to you as a Reformed Evangelical that my whole argument is against the over-spiritualizing of the nation of Israel.
I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation. That is what's brought on this distraction in the first place.

God bless.
R Crabtree

While I totally agree with this statement

"We proclaim Christ and Him crucified"

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

To Rev. Enue,
Nobody said anything about hating anyone, that was an unkind assumption to make.

The question is whether or not a secular nation-state that happens to have called itself “Israel” is actually the same Israel that the Bible is speaking of.

You've mentioned that I've twisted the scriptures. If I have it was unintentional. But you haven't even referenced them to support your position... and this, to my mind, is much more dangerous.

yours,
R Crabtree

I say this kindly but your reply is very “framework-heavy,” (dispensationalist I think?) and I’m not terribly interested in theological framework and speculation

I'm actually just as against dispensational theology as I am the replacement theology of most Reformed doctrine. Both, in essence, create a two peoples of God theory, each just in different ways. I maintain, as Paul did in Romans 11, that there is one people of God, as there has always been and always will be.

I am also against the sentimental pro-Israel stance you see by many Evangelicals today. It acts as if the nation of Israel could do no wrong.

I would encourage you to closely examine Isaiah 49, which shows what part of the Messianic task was and is: to bring Jacob back to the Lord, and restore him into the blessings of the covenant.

Goldminer,

I agree too. 100%.

How do you interpret Romans 11 though?

yours,
R C

Sorry KJ,

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote... But nevertheless, I'm sorry if I've wrongly shoved you into a box that you aren't in...

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?

RC

I would disagree with you that Reformed Theology creates "a two peoples of God theory." What can you give me to support this. I really want to understand where you are coming from on this one?

From my understanding of Replacement theology as held by the Reformed camp, two peoples are created by those who hold to the belief that the Church has replaced Israel. Thus, God had his dealings with the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, but under the New Covenant, the Church has superseeded the promises made to Israel, and has effectively replaced it. Israel was physical, the Church is seen as spiritual.

This is my understanding of replacement theology in the Reformed camp. I'm no scholar on their positions, so, I could be wrong :-)

I was gathering that you were in support of a dispensationalist stance.... In fact I'd swear it based on some of what you wrote

I'm not going to deny I have similar beliefs to some things found in the dispensational system. But as one scholar once said, "We are all a little dispensationalist." :-)

I do have some agreement with them on some issues. God does have a plan for national Israel. But what dispensationalists have failed to understand, is that God's plan for "physical" and "national" Israel, has always been intimately tied together with them being a spiritual, priestly, and holy people. They have created a false dichotomy which creates two peoples of God, one for one dispensation and another for another dispensation. In it they divide the Messianic mission and purpose of Christ. So much so that some ulta-dispensationalists have almost created two Messiahs. Some, like John Hagee, have fallen off the boat into heresy.

Great answers!

Thanks!

I think that what you've said about the dispensationalist position is fair.

But what you've written about the Reformed position is, I think, not quite right. Here's why, although so-called "replacement theology" says that the church has replaced (or better, become) the New Israel, I think you'll find that historical proponents of Reformed Theology (Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, etc.) felt that God's covenants have always been covenants of grace received through faith.

Think for example of God's covenant with Abraham. Are we meant to take the promises associated with this promise with a kind of crass literalism, as if this covenant was a blanket "fire-insurance" policy for anyone who happened to be a Hebrew. No! God's covenants were always given by grace and received through faith (Galatians 3:7-9 is a great example of this).
And regardless of national origin, if the covenant isn't received by faith a person is outside of grace... And so Paul could write:

...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
(Romans 9:6 ESV)

And this verse alone makes me scratch my head when people start in on the “We support Israel” bandwagon.

Again, you gave a great and helpful response! Thanks.

Yours,
RC

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I feel too many amazing miracles took place to put them back in their little piece of land. Only God could have done that. Why have nations tried to wipe them off the face of the planet, and still want to? They are a unique peculiar people that claim the lineage of Abraham, God's chosen man. They are blinded now for the most part but will see clearly in God's time. They will get their opportunity for repentence, just like the rest of us. But God is not casting them off forever. Will they all come in. All that choose to will, just as we gentiles have that choice. What God sets His love on He loves to the uttermost. He is a covenant keeping God. It is us who break our promises.

This New Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Greetings, RevCrabtree.

Refreshing post! Some of us have discussed this previously. You'll no doubt discover (if you haven't already) that if you hold to this perspective you are in a small minority these days.

But what you said is right, and scriptural. The true Israel is in fact the church of Jesus Christ: God's new creation.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.15,16).

This doesn't mean that God has "replaced" Israel with the church. What he has done is to bring the Gentiles into the church. Any man or woman whether Jew of Gentile, if they are walking according to the rule of new creation Life, they are part of the Israel of God.

If a Gentile is not walking according to that rule, he has no part in the Israel of God. And if someone who is a Jew by nature is not walking according to that rule, neither is he a part of the Israel of God.

Goldminer,

Thanks. This is helpful but let me see if I'm getting what you are saying.

Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

To my mind this seems a little more than we can get from Romans 11.

Yours,
RC

Dear ADisciple,

An annoyingly loud AMEN!!!!! to what you have written.

God bless,
RC

Are you saying that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote Romans 11 envisioning the modern secular nation-state of Israel, and saying that it would be granted universal salvation at some future time?

I am saying that as a nationality the Jew can trace his lineage down to Abraham and even though other nations have tried to wipe them off the face of the earth, God still had a plan and covenant with them because of their father Abraham. I do believe that there is a spritual Israel and that it will be made up of both Jew and gentile who are both now called believers. But I also believe that God has allowed the little nation of Israel to continue for a purpose. Do I know why, only what the word says about it in Romans 11. Who are the blinded ones that it is talking about if it isn't Israel?

Hello...

I wrote this in another thread about praying for the nation of Israel. It contains some of my thoughts on this issue.

...............................
...............................
...............................

Hi snufalapagus...

Hi Chris, I really don't know what you mean about we don't have to work, we don't have to pray, we don't have to help the poor since God can take care of all these things. I am trying to grasp the connection to my statement in letting God defend Israel, if He is for her.

Now, God is more than capable to take care of the needs of widows and orphans, our families and our own personal needs. Yet, the responsibility remains. Now consider what you wrote:

Israel can look after itself. If God is for her, lets see if He comes in her defence. She's leaned on the arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.

[b]Widows[/b] can look after themselves. If God is for them, lets see if He comes in their defence. They've leaned on the [b]welfare[/b] arm of the United States far too long, it's time to lean on God.

We can look at Israel in several different ways. We can look at them as a secular nation (both in government and in the physical heritage of the people). We can look at them as a nation (people) who have been rejected by God and replaced as the "chosen people" by believers. Or, we can look at them as a nation (people) where they have largely rejected Messiah Yeshua, but believers are now "engrafted" into the Vine of inheritance.

Now, America is unique in that it is a "nation without a people." The United States is a nation made up of many different people from different backgrounds. The nation of Israel, however, is unique in that it traces its "birthright" back to a promise made by God to Abraham -- hundreds of years before the Law of Moses. I believe that God is "married to the backslider." He has not forsaken His people. I believe that the people spoken of in Ezekiel 37 was the physical nation of Israel (who would be gathered back to their homeland from around the world). This, in my view, was fulfilled in 1948. I also believe that God desires for all of Israel to be saved. Believers (Gentile or Jewish) can receive the same inheritance as "joint heirs" in Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus). This is mentioned extensively in Romans 10, Romans 11, I Corinthians 11 and in verses like Ephesians 2:12 and Ephesians 3:6. It doesn't seem like God has replaced or rejected His own chosen people. I support the nation of Israel on spiritual grounds as well as on secular, governmental grounds (since it is the only free democracy in the Middle East).

To simply shrug our shoulders with the excuse that we should "let God be God" is akin to neglecting widows and orphans with physical assistance simply because God is their defender (Proverbs 23:11).

I do understand the underlying principle that you are conveying. We should always be willing to let God have His way. However, I also think that God's way frequently results in His desire to use people (or even governments) to bring about His will. I believe that God still sees and looks after the nation of Israel...and has used other nations to do this (like allies who ended the Shoah during WW2). Thus, I do not view Israel as "just a regular gentile nation." Yet, I would certainly agree that the nation of Israel needs God.

Personally, I feel that the idea that God completely rejected the nation of Israel by replacing the nation entirely with believes is flawed and unscriptural. Disclaimer: I am not considered "Jewish" in the sense that my mother was not Jewish. Still, my paternal grandmother was Jewish...so I do feel a different sort of kinship with the physical nation of Israel (at least, from a non-Halocho perspective). Anyway, I suppose that it is through these notions that influence the way that I think in regard to the nation. I still love and pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). I even hope that the nation of my temporary and secondary citizenship (the US) will not hand Israel over to its enemies. I certainly believe that God can and will protect her, but I also think that He might have been doing this through the vessel of the United States since 1948.

*EDIT - By the way, I identify myself with the Jews -- just like Corrie ten Boom's father did during World War II. He stood in line with the Jews who were being branded for their lineage. One might wonder: If God has rejected the Jews as His chosen people, then why does Satan hate them so much? Nazis, Muslim extremists and some modern neo-Nazis seem hell-bent on destroying the physical lineage of Abraham.