knitefall
Mar 28, 2010
Thoughts on contemplative prayer?
Thoughts on contemplative prayer?
Sure,
where to start?, It would depend on what people mean by contemplative prayer, some mean to relax and try and listen.
Nothing wrong with praying and listening to the Lord.
My problem with contemplative prayer is that it resembles
T.M. "transidental Meditation" the purpose of causing your mind to go into an altered state of consciousness, and in this altered state we can either experience god or hear him.
This method has been practiced by the desert fathers, promoted in a book called the "cloud of unknowing" author unknown.
It is practiced by New Age believers, who speak to spirit guides while in this state.
As I mentioned T.M. before this is a Hindu practice and they get an experience, called a Kundalini awakening.
I met a christian who practices this prayer practice and also has had a kundalini awakening, but some of his storys concerning the voices he has heard are very disturbing.
It is also an occult technique to hear from their own source of power.
Richard Foster, by his own admission in his book, "Prayer finding the hearts true home" he admits in the chapter on contemplative prayer, that prayer technique is dangerous for novice's because in the spirit realm not all spirits are in total agreement with God... Red flags there I think.
People will argue with me and some very veminately.
But prayer according to the bible, is asking, seeking, knocking. bringing our petitions before God who knows what we need before we ask. Prayer is talking to God, interceding for others, praising Him, and thanking him.
Never clearing our minds of thoughts, driving them out, like contemplative prayer dictates/.
" I will enter his gates with thanksgiving, I will enter his courts with praise"
Thanks giving means "thinkfullness" thinkfullness is thankfullness, God wants us to use our minds not clear them like other pagan religions.
It is not reciting a scripture over and over and over, or saying a word over and over and over to bring our minds into an alpha state to hear a voice, or hear God,a god.
Or to get a spirit quide, or to experience the god within.
which many claim, new age or who ever.
Experiences can be deceiving, we need to trust in the word of God.
there are a ton of resources that discribe the dangers of contemplative prayer, just google them.
and some great radio interviews from people who have been rescured from the mystical practice.
1cor 14:15 what is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit and I will also pray with the understanding.
"praying in the spirit here means in tongues, and with understanding means with the mind" neither has to do with contemplative prayer which entails the clearing of the mind to have an expereince with god, or hear voices.
hope this helps.
Poet, This will hopefully go to helping someone caught up in a sort of T.M. Of coarse this person sees nothing wrong with it. I cannot make them see, all I can do is present the information and let God do the Works He does. Thanks!
Brother Shawn.
"Contemplative Prayer" is simply the methodology to attain spiritual insight and power following the most ancient and widespread of them all; the mysteries of Satan worship and his loyal angels, described as Babylonian...stemming from Babel and Nimrod...the first satanic "Caesar" of the Earth.
This wicked system had several capitols throughout time, and as the winds of power shifted, settled in Rome. Demons, along with Caesar , were openly worshipped. Every major city had it's Patron Demon, whom the citizens worshipped, calling them god.
After Christianity began it's ascendancy, by the hand of the Lord, in the third century or so after the Resurrection of Jesus, Rome, and Satan, adapted another strategy. It baptized all of it's prophets of the BAALS [demon gods..] in a small stream outside the gates of Rome, and declared itself Christian....AS IT DOES YET TODAY!
The methods and doctrines of this "universal" [thereby the name Catholic..], changed only by symbols and titles. The objects of praise and worship are exactly the same as they have always been. They, by necessity, though, had to change the Names of the demons they worshipped. Astarte, "THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN!" became the virgin Mary..[ holy and sinless and ascended one...], and the various and ancient devils that ruled over regions were given the names of "saints".
The priest's ways to gain more evil power through the occult practices of clearing the mind, guided imagery and singular focus and mantra use was then called prayer...."meditative Prayer" to keep it Christian.
It is precisely and exactly the twin sister of it's unsullied counterpart in Hindi India today..[ where they never were required to mask their true worship..]
In English, it is called "Transcendental Meditation". You can really transcend this plane of consciousness...it is real. The problem being, that without Jesus, and His cleansing Blood, you will encounter the consciousness of malevolent beings...who hate God, and His Christ.
Babylon the great, did, and does worship Satan,and his order... the princes of darkness.
Contemplative prayer is not found in the scriptures.
If that is not enough of a warning sign, what can top it?
If you look up the greek word for prayer, more often than not, you find it is the word WORSHIP.
Nobody but nobody can worship God by emptying their mind, or doing nothing for that matter. Worship involves serving in humble obedience, praising the recipient for their attributes, and thank for being priveledged enough to serve. It is the bowing down of yourself in word and deed.
So many think of prayer as petition alone, however, it has been found to be a two way street of communication.
Waiting on God has been musunderstood to mean just sitting there and waiting, however, it is comparable to being a waiter in service to somebody dining. This entails hospitality: honoring God as greater than yourself, in such a way, that anything He desires is gratified to the best of your ability sparing no expense in achieving it. (Like Abraham in Genesis 18 - This experience was a living breathing prayer. Some say he was meditating at the onset of this experience, but how well does one meditate after B'rit Milah (circumcision)? As well in regard to the Hebrew mindset, if any think of this as some sort of mysticism, they do not understand the way of the -(most all of whom are all about tradition)- Hebrew:
( They say you must always be found doing,
whether awake or asleep, or purpose is without fruit.
This is and has been the prevailing way since Abraham,
or so they say.
[ONE EXCEPTION:The Hassidim -(one sect of the
Parushim ->aka:pharisee)- advocate allowance
for seeking after "the vision of God" in
affiliation with attaining to prophecy and
promote a similar technique. Still, they
employ methods to keep the mind focused
on the end result, avoiding any 'clearing
of the mind' completely.
Historically, what good has come from it???] )
The difference with God and any other entity, is that God shares with you. He gives you the benefit of worship in service to Him. He is so generous though, that in offering your self up to him, he leaves you better off than when you began.
What tangible results does contemplative prayer provide?
Is it any better than meditating over scripture? Ps. 1:2-3
Give yourself to Him and he benefits you more than you can recieve in return.
Rev. 3:20-21
Prayer is not folding your hands and saying your desires to God. Though there are many times withdrawal from the regular activities to get alone with God is normal, emptying your mind is not.
Prayer is living and talking with God. He want you to communicate with Him the way he created you: fully functioning.
He is not some nebulus force waiting to be tapped into.
There is no place you can go that He is not present.
Correct me if this is wrong:
Contemplative prayer seems to be a method of causing your consciousness to receed from the world about you and going into yourself?
If this is the case, according to the scriptures, this is not prayer at all. It is all about you and if there is anything about God, it is secondary.
You may recieve insight, however, where does that insight come from?
Your heart?
Your flesh?
A Daemon?
An angel of light's sermon recalled?
Your imagination?
A noise outside your window?
...and who knows what direction consciousness will flow from there?
When one blanks out rationale, one becomes open to any number of possible influences. The bar of intuition has no dictate for or against what is admitted into consciousness.
It might be a good way to become some new age neo-pagan fluff bunny, but the fruits of this activity seem quite worthless.
A sensible sheeple will not pay money for nothing, yet these contemplatives spend alot of time "doing nothing?" to achieve what?
Nothing from nothing leaves nothing.
What kind of prayer is effective?
Jas. 5:15
Jas. 5:16
Lk. 18:7
Where in the Bible does it say that to pray, you contemplate?
CIAO!
Tozer was big on it for what that's worth. He was totally a mystic in practice and very well read in the classic mystical authors, including those mentioned in this thread.
I think he practiced an active contemplative prayer where he would meditate on an attribute of God, like His holiness, for hours without speaking. Kinda like silent worship not just emptying the mind for the sake of it.
The following articles are by Don Whitney on mysticism and contemplative prayer.
The boundaries of Evangelical spirituality are the written self-revelation of God. Thus Evangelicals should also recognize that the boundaries of their spirituality specifically include the biblical doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide.
For what it's worth, there are many things an elder/pastor friend of mine quotes from Tozer ...and you may find him without his bible, but never without one of Tozer's books.
He does not argue with what is shown him from the scriptures that Tozer contradicts, (that usually he quipts with qoutes from him), however, simply from all the ludicrous qoutes heard said, i have yet to bother picking up one of his books. Perhaps this brothers quotes are out of context???
Isn't God grand?
One can be nuttier than a fruitcake, and leave a worse taste in your mouth, and yet, He calls and chooses such?
He says i am too radical.
i say i'll pray for him.
He laughs.
We go our seperate ways til we cross paths again.
When we meet again, we talk about what God is doing with us in relationship and through us in service to Him.
WE are both coming around so to speak. Yet, he will not go with me to minister if i am called upon.
(i am a layman, and not certified or studied within the confines of a seminary...but, amazingly, God still uses me.)
Mysticism is not following Jesus example.
I'll stick with Jesus til' he shows me differently.
If what you say he practiced is what Tozer did, i hope for the sake of all who read his texts, that it was based on following scripture passages in 'contemplation'. If this is the case, i would not call it contemplative so much as meditation in the scripture.
CIAO!
Thank you Dessert Rose.
It will be checked into.
Jn. 15:4
"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."
- Malachi 3:16(KJV)
I once heard it said that the duty of the theologian is to make clear distinctions. And I believe that is usefull, especially for the sake of others who either because of carelesness, inability, or sloth, do not make them in their own estimations of things.
It would not surprise me that one of the devils stategems is most thoroughly achieved when he is able to take something that is good and useful to the people of God, to subvert it into something else, and by way of association with that good and original thing, cause what was once useful to be neglected or abandoned altogether.
The Law is neglected in preaching because some make it a means of salvation. Fasting and other disciplines are looked upon with suspicion because of the cry of works righteouness and whatever else.
But would it be wrong, for instance, to meditate for long periods upon the attributes of God? It doesn't appear to me to be so.
When David says, 'When I consider thy heavens', it doesn't mean he had a revelation from a passing thought. At least I don't think so. If I recall correctly, one of the words in the greek language that is translated 'to see', means to gaze upon and to look upon intently.
According to the Hebrew dictionary, one of the words translated [i]meditate
I'm confident that anyone else who has spent more than a few moments gazing intently at a passage of scripture, who has spent long periods of time running it over in their minds, has also found as I have some insight into the passage which had not appeared to them before.
And I cannot see where it would be unholy to look long and intently at any of the attributes of God. And in so doing, to worship Him.
It’s hard to stand by and read all this fear mongering over one word and propagating the fear of a perfectly good word!
For what it’s worth, this is exactly what I have been trying to say about denominational differences. I read about half of Don Whitney’s “Devotion” before I thought, “What is this guy’s denominational affiliation? I bet I know.” And it was what I guessed. What gave it away was all his different uses of evangelical, “moorings,” “writers,” and “evangelical theology.”
His first sentence of the last section really doesn’t say anything about the Christian’s use of the Bible but instead says, “My observation is that most of those in both the pulpit and the pew are not studying doctrine.” He doesn’t seem to worry that people aren’t studying their Bibles!
[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/doctrine ]Doctrine
So what if our 'body of teachings' doesn't agree on prayer? Our denominational doctrine or theology affect the way we read and the way we interpret of the Word of God. And just because someone else does it differently than your church or understands it differently than your church, it doesn’t mean everyone else is false converts.
I have NEVER been to a prayer meeting where people chant or anyone has ever said, “Clear your mind of everything you thought was true.” I don’t know how except through God dropping the Holy Spirit like an anvil down on top of all of us, when we will all finally agree on something instead of condemning and denouncing one another because we don’t understand with or agree with how someone worships the Lord.
I’d like to ask, “How many denominations are represented in this thread?”
My denomination is... I don’t really have one! But I am a believer who walks in and exercises in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I’m not near as afraid of the word, “contemplative” as some of you seem to be. I've been in a lot of pentecostal and Spirit-filled type meetings and NEVER seen any of the things Brothertom wrote about it.
Brothers and Sisters, time is short; we need to be praying for one another. If you think IHOP or contemplative prayer is so bad, WHY oh why are you not in your secret prayer closest praying for those who are so deceived?? THIS is how we can know that we’ve past from death unto life; because we love the brethren (that much)!!
(edited for english mistakes!)
But would it be wrong, for instance, to meditate for long periods upon the attributes of God? It doesn't appear to me to be so.
No, however, meditation on such without the clear revelation of God, his testimony of Himself -the scriptures- seems to have the earmarks of idolatry, possibly creating God in our own image.
When David says, 'When I consider thy heavens', it doesn't mean he had a revelation from a passing thought. At least I don't think so. If I recall correctly, one of the words in the greek language that is translated 'to see', means to gaze upon and to look upon intently
"too see to it that you observe like a watchman/guard"-
Jn 14:15,21,23?
David's considerations stated were long after he had spent much time in the Torah in meditation. As a backdrop to this process of meditation, he had long before memorized the pentateuch - 'Torah'. If you just consider the amound of time David gives to reverencing 'God's Teachings' See Ps. 119 with many other verses elsewhere)... and the minimal amount of reference to nature, it might have been just a passing thought.
I cannot see where it would be unholy to look long and intently at any of the attributes of God. And in so doing, to worship Him.
Me either.
It's just that without God's revelation (Bible), you most likely are stabbing in the dark. That is not a good place to be playing.
Consider his attributes through what He testifies about enjoys doing, and all the examples he gives of this. It's hard to steer the boat wrong when He is illumining you in the direction you should go.
Jer. 9:24ESV
CIAO!
Gregg
hi,selah jimp
It's just that without God's revelation (Bible), you most likely are stabbing in the dark. That is not a good place to be playing.
I agree with you Gregg,
Which is why...
If what you say he practiced is what Tozer did, i hope for the sake of all who read his texts, that it was based on following scripture passages in 'contemplation'. If this is the case, i would not call it contemplative so much as meditation in the scripture.
... it is a good practice to take the time to make clear distinctions of what something is or isn't, what is or isn't being practiced, especially when people are being named in association with these things.
If AW Tozer practiced some form of contemplative prayer, and he is being mentioned here, then what he practised, and specificially, needs to be stated or he shouldn't be mentioned to begin with.
That also is taking stabs in the dark.
Amen?
Greg, I typed this up and right before I entered this, saw ChrisJD's post! Very good one... don't worry about my post! I liked his!!!
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[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contemplate?qsrc=2446]Contemplate
Verses in KJV - [b]Meditate
Greg, you don't seem to be afraid of the word "meditate" so I'm not understanding how the word "contemplative" gets to people... look above at the meaning again! I googled "meditate" and the first 10 responses were all on one topic: transcendental meditation; while the first 10 responses under "contemplative" were on five different topics!
People won't accept contemplative because it's not in the Bible but yet they accept meditate because it is in the Bible. Using that logic, you wouldn't think that people would accept the word "rapture" like they do since IT'S not in the Bible and all. Oh but look at how many people have fallen for that one!! LOL
God bless you!!
It's believed that if we do not stick with pre-established norms, unless it contradicts what the actual bible manuscripts are saying, it will convolute the issue(s) being discussed.
From there, things can become very awry.
This seems to be one predominant way the Gospel has been tainted and twisted. ( 'believe' and 'faith' never intended to mean 'agree in your mind' nor 'decide', but rather 'to do as you think and say'. Believe implies action irregardless to what you percieved to be so. Faith implies faithfulness. (Jas. 2:18,19 20ESV and Jn. 3:36ESV)
We can rest assured that God's Word is faithful and true. Except for definition and illustration, it is good to go to the best source we can possibly find for understanding what exactly we talk about.
There must be a standard adhered to, or the initial intent becomes lost, or, at best, tainted.
For myself, in regards to the scriptures, of the Koine (classical) Greek, primarily, the The Textus Receptus is used in conjunction with the Otogra. With the Old Testament, the Masoretic Text is used here.
From what has been learned so far of 'contemplative', were such a word to be used in replacement for 'meditation',-(as it's meaning is understood through the scriptures)- we narrow down the meaning. To contemplate is hardly meditation, but, rather one aspect of it, and rudimentary at that.
If i were to say "John the Dunker' or "drowned in Christ" many would be confused. If i stick to the word 'baptise', though many think it only deals with water, the hearer/reader is not thrown off by a use of different terms. In using the word baptise, with most, there is common ground for further understanding.
How many people actually pick up a dictionary and research the spermology,etymology, and morphology of a word, much less context and syntax where that word is used? If they do research into a word, at best, most go with the definitions they find, to say nothing of whether they bothered to check the validity of the source, or checking additional sources.
'Contemplative' has gained it's meaning today because of cultural usage, so cultural context is imperative in defining it. Since first reading into this thread, it has been learned that this word is most often used by new age and neo-pagan proponents, as well as catholic mystics, in definition of any various aspect of heathen eastern techniques, usually from any of many a various school of buddhist and/or hundu forms of godless meditation.
It is forcefully spoken and agreed that prayer for the church above all else be the call of the day. As written, so i do. These are brothers and sisters who are turning to things outside the pale of our Only One and True Faith.
If you do not know what you should pray, look at Jn.17 thouroughly.
All in all, follow Jesus example. You can't go wrong doing that.
To all who read this, not as a recomendation, i give give a command from the Lord, "hold fast to what is written." Mt. 5:19 / I Cor. 6:2-3 / Jn. 14:23
Grace and Shalom to all who walk in Covenant with God our Father through His Son Jesus, the only King without mediator, annointed in and by Him.
G
p.s. Neither do i condone the word "rapture',
but will be ready for it when it comes.
ROFLingOL
Edited: for wrong verse quoted
Authentic Christian prayer is always outward, where by faith we commune with the Father , and His holy Son seated at the right hand of the Father. It is never inward. It is always aggressive, and exterior. It always stems from communion outward, where Heaven is real, where Christ is alive, making intercession with the Father for His desire and His own.
This is not about words; it is about practice. Of course the Babylonian New Age practice has been hammered into Christianese so that the gullible would accept it as Christian. It is not, and it is anti-christ. Other spirits [demon powers] eventually seep into the void of the mind to create a semblance of the Lord, to deceive you.
This is the age old practice of Babylon, and as it sits today in Hindi India today, it is called Transcendental Meditation. You transcend the earthly plane to the Spiritual, with the goal of finding Nirvana; A state where gods live in perfect bliss with the Universe. The Hindi holy men speak of this consciousness, and these beings.
This is exactly the practice of the Mystic Prophets of Roman Catholicism, who used these methods handed down to them, shrouded in Christian symbolism, but in practice, fulfilling a satanic worship order, thousands of years old.
The bread and butter of this practice, begins in the methods to transcend. Focusing on one thing, clearing the mind, GUIDED IMAGERY...IE: The imagination. You focus to see something, and god wants you to obtain it. This is the exact same way that Todd Bentley travelled to heaven in his chats with Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He also spoke of angels with bags of gold, and many other fantastical experiences.
Were they real?. In a way , yes. The question being, Were they of the Lord?...They were originated in the mind of the wicked demon.
This is an exert from IHOP's website; a teaching on Meditative Prayer.
Method #2
Choose a short story in Scripture.
Read through the story several times silently.
Close your eyes and acknowledge the Spirit who lives in you.
[Here is were the imagery comes in...]
"Use your IMAGINATION to IMAGINE yourself as one of the story characters or as an onlooker"...[caps mine]
Does this sound like King David, or Maharishi yoga?
Play out the story in your mind applying all five of your senses.[ IHOP"S WORDS"]
...my words..."Imagine a story in your mind, and it will be god, because that is how it works.
This is wicked claptrap, but deadly to the "BUYER." It is demonic Babylon, and you will be deceived if you receive it as truth."brothertom
Method #3..[ again, from IHOP's website on prayer.]
"We call this “Beholding the Spirit Within.”
The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods.
Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while FOCUSING on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God.
!!!!!!It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm.!!!!!"
...[ directly quoted from IHOP]...caps mine.
SOUND FAMILIAR?
"Once you feel God’s presence, FOCUS on it in a concentrated way.
You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you."
IHOP
!!!!!!The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.!!!!!!....IHOP
....[ another spirit..]...brothertom
IHOP TEACHES:....In this time, feel the freedom to stay quiet.
!!!!Silently ask the Spirit to show you a vision, or slowly and silently say to Him, “I love You. I love You. I love You.”!!!!!!
IHOP
This is how demonic revelation is attained, masquerading as Holy.
WAKE UP AND RUN!
edited for clarification of quotes....BT
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