I was curious as to if there is such an animal as a Pentecostal Baptist. :) I am starting to look at what I truly believe and am starting to understand both schools of Doctrine and is it logical and possible to believe both? Something that my head pastor avoids is Baptist doctrines because of the "Once Saved Always Saved" Theology. Any comments or thoughts on this would be appreciated.
God Bless,
Matthew
Matthew,
Are you talking about doctrine? I humbly admit that I don't know anything about the doctrine side of things.
But I have known 2 couples and six formerly baptist who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit this past year alone! Several years ago we all attended the same church; I don't know that any of them consider themselves of the a pentecostalist or a baptist anymore! I would say they are "Jesusist" now!! LOL As it should be!!
God bless you!!
Southern Baptists are officially against the Pentecostal belief in speaking in tongues. You can be excommunicated from the SBC for doing such. I have known of people who have had such happen to them.
I don't know that any of them consider themselves of the a pentecostalist or a baptist anymore! I would say they are "Jesusist" now!! LOL As it should be!!
I agree whole heartily I am a Christian and Child of God.
You can be excommunicated from the SBC for doing such.
That is interesting I didn't know that, but that seems pretty extreme do you know the difference between their views of the Baptism as oppose to Pentecostals interpretation? Thanks for the information!
I know a few Bapticostals. Typically one would be run out of the Baptist church for speaking in tongues. I went to Calvary Baptist Bible Church in Belton, MO and they have it in their statement of faith. They make it clear that people of "the tongue speaking persusasion," would not be welcome in their institution. You can imagine that I had an interesting experience there. Yet it was there that I had a vision to see the rise of a "Bapticostal" movement. ........brother Frank
Hum well brother Frank I believe I am somewhat a part of that Bapticostal movement then. I think what I am seeing is that I have listened to a lot of Baptist preaching on here and their speaking truth so it's kind of hard to disagree with that. I tried to have my pastor listen to Paul Washer's Ten Indictments of the Church and he listened to it but completely disregarded it because Paul Washer is baptist. Kind of disappointing but I understand what Paul Washer is talking about and see his point of view and can't really disagree with it because it's truth.
I too have a number of friends who consider themselves bapticostals. I have even heard of churches of this kind. I am sure it the acceptability will vary with the bent of the gathering.
Matthew,
There is extreme bigotry on both sides. God has so graciously brought me through many (bad and misplaced) attitudes in my Christian walk. Early on, I was like your pastor except WORSE, if it even 'smelled' Baptist, I would totally disregard it or the person, "they couldn't possibly have anything to say to benefit me." Yeah, makes me cringe today too. It's only the Lord's compassion that I was not consumed in my own religious bigotry.
When I went to the church where I met the "baptists" (lol), it didn't say baptist anywhere on any piece of literature or I can tell you that I would not have went back the second sunday and that was just in 2001!! I went to that church for six months before I found out that the leadership adhered to the southern baptist convention but it was too late; the Lord had allowed to fall in love with the people. Slowly they learned I was of the gifts-are-for-today persuasion and it was too late for them as well!! (huge grin)
In that time, the Lord has done a great work in my life and attitude about those of different beliefs (praise His name!) and I can now see what the Lord wants to do for both denominations... if God could get "religious people" past their prejudices and BOTH sets of denominations past their church dogma - God could and would work miracles around this world but as it is, He only gets to work within the confines of the box each of them have Him in!! Sometimes He gets out and it seems to be a little more often! Haha
I am not too sure about a Pentecostal Baptist, but there are Reformed Charismatics; I myself being one. There are prominent Evangelicals out there who believe the same such as Piper, Grudem, Virgo, and Mahaney.
ROFLI was curious as to if there is such an animal as a Pentecostal Baptist. :)
I think there is such a creature, it exists in the open mindedness of individuals who are willing to step outside of their established creeds.
I don't like to claim myself as a Pentecostal, but I am of that pedigree by experience.
I generally don't read Baptist literature because of their denunciation of the gifts of the spirit having ceased in the first century. But I am reading a book dated 1875 by a Baptist who also was a revivalist. So far in my reading he does not represent present day Baptists at all. In his writings he does not discourage the gifts of the Spirit. However, his main theme is repentance, and a revival without repentance and change is not a revival.
The one thing that I like about the Baptist is their good foundation regarding the grace of God and our reconciliation to God which seems to be wanting in the Pentecostal churches. But I believe there can be a balance with the two. The difficulty is becoming too extreme. I have been in Pentecostal churches that have that balance. And I have been in Baptist Churches that were not discouraged when someone gave a message in tongues and another interpreted. They were more reverent when such a word came forth, but Pentecostals are little bit more boisterous and nothing wrong with that, but a good silence would be nice to consider what was said instead of rejoicing in the fact that God spoke.
Hey brother, one of the reasons I was drawn to sermonindex was because of the diversity. At the conferences we see many different backgrounds and that is not without its problems, but for the most part it has been awesome to see brothers and sisters from so many backgrounds and persausions come together to seek the Lord. Personally, I believe that denominationalism itself is the main problem.
In studying the history of the Church, there is such a richness to be found outside of denominationalism. Whether they were brethren or Waldensians or anabaptists or moravians, we see such a richness taking place outside of the "State," Church whether that was Catholic of Reformed. It seems to be no surprise that these groups that stood outside of denominationalism ar sectarianism were persecuted by both sides.............Frank
During the late 60's and early 70's there was a revival that took place among many saints in some of the mainline denominational churches. Many Christians were being filled with the Holy Spirit and manifesting spiritual gifts which was tolerated up to a point.
I was saved as a Catholic who got mixed up with some Catholic charismatics in the early 70's. At the prayer meetings that I attended there was a priest that was full of the Holy Spirit that was preaching Jesus Christ. Also the Full Gospel Businessmen were having meetings in the Lake Charles Civic Center and there were Spirit filled believers from just about every denomination that attended these meetings. It didn't take long for my wife and I to see the many contradictions of the teachings in the Catholic Church to the Word of God, so we began to attend an Assembly of God Church that attracted many young people that had come out of the hippie movement that was going on at that time. We loved the older Christians that were already there, and although they were put to the test, they loved and accepted us. At that time I was praying with a charismatic Catholic priest and several others every Friday morning, and this priest was invited to minister at the AOG church. The mainline denominations could only take this for so long, so that many of their Charismatic leaders and members were given the left foot of fellowship. Some stayed in their dead denominations because they saw this move of God as a revival of the denominations, which never happened.
Jesus prayed "“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (John 17:20-24).
If the church would come together in the unity of the Spirit there would be a great harvest of souls take place.
God is wanting to bring His Church into the unity of the faith.
"until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:13).
Mike
That is interesting I didn't know that, but that seems pretty extreme do you know the difference between their views of the Baptism as oppose to Pentecostals interpretation?
The SBC views the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as one and the same thing. Pentecostals believe them to be two distinct events, though leaving the possibility they may occur at the same time in some people. Both groups agree you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at conversion. But Pentecostals believe that there is an experience you can have, post conversion, where you receive an endument of power for the purpose of witnessing. This experience is known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
A common analogy given by Pentecostals to help understand this view is the idea of a glass being filled with water. This represents the indwelling of the Spirit. The baptism of the Spirit, they would say, is when you are "filled to the overflow," so that the water continues to overflow the brim of the glass.
"Classical Pentecostalism" teaches that when you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, "the initial physical evidence" that confirms to you and others that you received this experience is that you will speak in an unknown tongue. Not all Pentecostals adhere to this doctrine, though, historically speaking, this has generally been the case. Some (like me) say any demonstration of power from the Spirit, be it tongues, prophecy, etc., will suffice as evidence of having received the endument of power that accompanies being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I hope this helps you understand.
I'm a SBC pastor, who believes the gifts of the spirit are for today, since we are still living in the N.T. This view is split 50/50 in the church I pastor.
While each church is automonus and the North American Missions Borad passed a ruling a few years back that they would not ordain missionaries who have a private prayer languguage and you have to sign a statement saying you do not.
Even the current Baptist Faith and Message is not excepted by all of our churches. Becasue of the views of women's role in ministry and the views of grace.
That may all be TMI.
So back to the orginal post. I know many southern baptists who have a private prayer langauge do not do so within the congregration. I think this has much to do with God and less to do with the individual sinc, God is about unity among his belivers.
Pentecostals believe them to be two distinct events, though leaving the possibility they may occur at the same time in some people
They are two events...
a person can be a believer in Jesus and have been baptized in water and still have NOT received the Holy Spirit.
...let's look at what the bible says:
Acts 8:14-17 states:
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 [b]For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.[u]They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 [b][u]Then they laid hands on them
There you have it, you can be a water baptized believer in Jesus and NOT have received the Holy Spirit. There is an infilling of the Holy Spirit that happens AFTER conversion and water baptism, and sometimes before water baptism as in the case of Cornelius and those that were with him. At least according the bible that I read.
So much for the false doctrine of cessationism.
Having said that, I do not believe that every one will speak in tongues as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul points this out:
1 Corinthians 12:29-31 states:
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
A person will absolutely KNOW when they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit...this is an experience like no other.
The Apostle Paul writes (pay attention to verse 16):
Romans 8:14-16 (New King James Version)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
He bears witness to our spirit that we are His...this witness I know and hereby testify that this is a very real experience of the Power of God in my life.
btw
I am a Bapticostal if there is such a thing, not that a Christian should have such a title or denomination. Denominations are going to be done away with, and it's coming soon, and it will be the Lord who does it.
I was water baptized at Olivet Baptist Church, on Easter Sunday 1981. I left the Baptist Church by the hand of God; I could not remain with those whose hearts were not on fire and who denied the gifts of the Holy Spirit...I had outgrown them. God brought me through many trials, and I am forever grateful for His mercy in my life. I am most grateful for the power and the witness of the Holy Spirit that was given to me; He saved my spiritual life and has given me a lively hope!
I was baptized in a Baptist Church and hold many of the Pentecostal tenents and attend a Pentecostal Church now.
Regardless was the traditions of the denominations say, scripture is the only safe authority.
Any cessastionist would have to twist 1 Corinthians 12+14.
Any staunch Pentecostalist would have to twist scripture to explain 1 Corinthians 12:29-31.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a luxury or a denomination divider but an absolute neccessity for the survival of the church, especially under persecution.
I can understand that in a 2 tiered church divided between pulpit and pew with professional preachers that only teach the doctrine they learned in seminary rather than demonstrating the life of Christ the operation gifts of the spirit would definitely be an irritation.
The true operation of the gifts needs a proper understanding and functioning of the body of Christ as well headship and presbyteral authority less they end up in chaos. I have seen very little of this even in the best pentecostal circles - as for now. My great desire to that type of a church in operation before I die.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a luxury or a denomination divider but an absolute neccessity for the survival of the church, especially under persecution.
Thank-you for that, and I absolutely agree!
My great desire to that type of a church in operation before I die.
I believe you shall! I had a vision about his very thing...and I earnestly desire that it comes to pass soon:
John Piper and the congregation where he preaches, Bethlehem Baptist Church, are continuationist and charismatic in their pneumatology.
Likewise, Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and believe in the gifts and baptism of the Holy Spirit. Their pastor is Tim Conway, and they frequently post videos on their website, Illbehonest.com.
Paul Washer is also a continuationist, and he claims (or has claimed in the past) to be a Southern Baptist. It's a wonder that he hasn't been kicket out of that denomination yet.
" My great desire to that type of a church in operation before I die."
I too believe that you will see that before you die. There is such a hunger and thirst for the presence of God and to know and worship Him in the fullness of His revelation to us. We saw a little of this at a couple of the revival conferences. Pastor Brian Long, whose Baptist Church in Barnsdall is where we had a revival conference last summer, is a "Spirit filled ," believer, meaning, in this context, a believer in the Gifts of the Spirit.......Frank
On second thought...
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