obeying leaders? | SermonIndex

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jiyouk Apr 22, 2010

Hey guys.
Haven't been on here for a while, but as I was surfing the internet to search on obeying leaders, I figured that you guys would give better answers than wikipedia.
my question is, if a church leader is doing the wrong thing and blocking the advancement of the Kingdom of God, is it okay (both biblically, historically, and in your opinion) to leave with a bunch of people and start a new church?
examples of stopping the Kingdom of God include stopping a guys from becoming missionaries through counselling because he or she has had an high education and it would be a waste not to use those talents.

Teaching that Jesus never condemned a sinner and so therefore, we should teach love, not much about sin.

What are you guys thoughts? Thank you for your answers.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2010

Check out the whole chapter of Matthew 18.

It's about dealing with offences from beginning to end.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

sermonindex Apr 22, 2010

Paul said; 1 Corinthians 4:14.... " I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

We are to follow men, and submit to them, IF they have the Father's Heart. Paul's proof of the life giving anointing was that by and through his faith, the Corinthian church was born...and baptized in the holy spirit from Heaven.

You are responsible before the Lord to be obedient to Him. The annuls of missionary endeavor are filled with young people who met resistance from every level; wives, parents, friends, institutions......Everyone resisted; yet they heard the call, and went on.

The other side of that is that we all fail, and are far from perfect. Remember; the head of every man and woman is Christ. Even a married woman is only obligated to submit to her husband "in the Lord".

1 Timothy 4:6
[ A Good Servant of Jesus Christ ] "If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed."

We are to follow good doctrine, and words of faith that we have been nourished by. A man was never ordained to control you, yet if he is a true shepherd the word says; Hebrews 13:17

17. "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

18. Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly."

I'm sure the Pastor there does not want to see the church split. He may be counseling you for your own good, to keep you from shipwreck. This split may or may not be from God, but remember, things don't change inside your heart because you become a "missionary". Your influence upon the kingdom of God probably will not change one bit from being in Milwaukee, or Mogadishu, from being in the choir, or as an "apostle to the Nations."

As far as teaching that "God is Love", versus repentance from sin and faith toward God, They, together are the gospel. We should ALL minister that truth to the lost All the time, IF we love them. Learn to walk with God in your own personal. secret way. This secret history with God will one day give you confidence, and a voice; your voice, that will sound a clear call as you enter His service in a more committed way.

Luke 17:9-11 (King James Version)

9. "Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

10. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. "

Forget about the glory you may attain by being a missionary or some mighty leader of men to the Nations as a missionary. In the end, we must yet be redeemed, and we will realize that it is all of grace, and that there is nothing good in ourselves anyway, except the glorious spirit of the Lord Jesus.

If you are called, and decide to do it, that's good, but your reward will be no less than the housewife who diapers her babies, keeps house, and loves God and her family; who rests in His spirit and in His will.

Tom

sermonindex Apr 22, 2010

Causing a split in the Church is never easy, it's really a messy situation at first and it gets balanced out later on. In the city that I live, we have had one Pentecostal church that had a city wide revival back in the day (back before the flood). From that Church there were many splits, and all of them were not on good terms. But through the process of time, these churches were recognized by the original church they left. Splits always look bad in the beginning but they serve their purpose.

At the Tower of Babel when God was warning them to spread out over the earth that they may fill the earth, the people wanted to stay in one place. After several heedings, God gave to the people different languages that caused them to react with madness towards those that didn't understand what their neighbour was saying. Now, because there was no unity amongst them, they found others who spoke their lingo and moved away from the confusion, hence the word Babel.

That is why we have splits in the churches. These can be both good and bad. Good in that most people split because they want a move of God which is not happening where they are at. Bad in that sometimes the split may end up being a cult. That was a popular notion in Paul's day.

M

mguldner Apr 22, 2010

Listen to the sermon series Why Another Church by Zac Poonen

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=218&date=09_10&title=Why+Another+Church%3F+2.+Gathering+In+Jesus%26rsquo%3B+Name

Its a four part series I have placed the link above for the first sermon you can use the websites search engine to find the other 3.

Listening to these sermons has lead my dad and I to not really leave our church but to start up a home church on a sperate night and completely separate from the church we attend, we hope in the future to be completely operational as a home church but just want to get our feet wet before we decide this is what we want to do.

God Bless,
Matthew

J

jiyouk Apr 24, 2010

Dear brother Tom,
Brothertom, why are you assuming that I am going out of the church because I want some

glory you may attain by being a missionary or some mighty leader of men to the Nations as a missionary

?
Brother, did it not occur to you that maybe it hs nothing to do with my position or anything else for the matter but the glory of God? Did it not occur to you, brother that maybe the reason that I'm thinking of leaving is because Christ is not being glorified and that this brings me pain?

It does seem to be spiritually mature if you, like "practicing the presence of God" don't devide the line between what is spritual and our every day lives. Yes, it is true that many fall into needless guilt by deviding their world into a two fold holy stuff that I do, and just normal living stuff. He would have to realize that no matter what he does, he needs Jesus living in Him and really letting Him do the work through Him through faith. However, brother, and I think I've talked about this before to you.. I think that if you do walk with God and are united with Jesus, you start to see his passion for the lost.
Every christian needs to come out of his own life, and follow Christ. Every christian is called to follow the way of the cross. Brother, there should be priorities. And souls are more important that every day life.

I dunno if you've got influenced by calvins view of "calling," but brother, the Lords calling everyone to be missionaries. To throw away that net you've relied onand follow Christ by faith. He's looking for people who are united with him in heart toward the lost.

Anyway, if what I said does not apply to you, then my appologies.

sermonindex Apr 24, 2010

"Brothertom, why are you assuming that I am going out of the church because I want some

glory you may attain by being a missionary or some mighty leader of men to the Nations as a missionary

?
Brother, did it not occur to you that maybe it hs nothing to do with my position or anything else for the matter but the glory of God? Did it not occur to you, brother that maybe the reason that I'm thinking of leaving is because Christ is not being glorified and that this brings me pain?"....jiyouk
...........................................
Referring to this in post down below by me. Brothertom:
"Forget about the glory you may attain by being a missionary or some mighty leader of men to the Nations as a missionary. In the end, we must yet be redeemed, and we will realize that it is all of grace, and that there is nothing good in ourselves anyway, except the glorious spirit of the Lord Jesus."

and.....
"I'm sure the Pastor there does not want to see the church split. He may be counseling you for your own good, to keep you from shipwreck. This split may or may not be from God, but remember, things don't change inside your heart because you become a "missionary". Your influence upon the kingdom of God probably will not change one bit from being in Milwaukee, or Mogadishu, from being in the choir, or as an "apostle to the Nations."
and.........

jiyouk wrote:

"I dunno if you've got influenced by calvins view of "calling," but brother, the Lords calling everyone to be missionaries. To throw away that net you've relied on and follow Christ by faith. He's looking for people who are united with him in heart toward the lost."

.........................................................

I never said forget about going to the Nations for Christ. I said forget about the glory you might attain. It is in the nature of youth and religious zeal to be presumptuous. Often the zealous do passionately love Jesus, and want to throw away their lives in bursts of extravagant service to Him, and do not know of the Price.

Without learning of the Cross, the deadly force we must attain to to become like Him, to resurrect in His glory, right now in this mundane world of responsible American life....[ bills, teenagers, taxes, marriage, babies that like to eat...], we will not endure the sustained hardships of missionary life...where great demands are set upon you day and night.

This was not a personal exhortation to you; but a warning, or consideration in light of the circumstances you wrote about. Personally, I hope you do Go to the nations. Start out small; say a month at a mission outpost in Africa [English speaking..]. Get some hands on experience ministering to people one on one, pray for the sick, and preach Jesus to the lost. This would be a wonderful thing. Then, take it from there.

Some of the most useless and hardened Christian ministers I have met call themselves Missionaries. I am not impressed by titles. I have RARELY met a "missionary" that had the fruits of love and mercy. Of course, they portray themselves to here in America in their fundraising tours.

As far as Calvin goes, I have never read a thing by the man, and only learned how GA-GA people got over him here...on Sermonindex, recently. Then, I studied him a little. Not for me.

As far as everyone called to be a missionary? I'll go with your... " He's looking for people who are united with him in heart toward the lost." word.

I have given every Earthly thing away I own, more than once, and abandoned myself to the nations more than once....with the hope of ever returning to America resting in His hands ...alone. I have left to foreign countries not knowing a soul there, or where I would land, to preach the gospel. I have led many to Christ with baptisms, and many who had never heard the name of Jesus once before.

I have suffered some, got really sick, ran for my life before, was an inch of being robbed and killed ,and was in peril by Islamic radicals who believed murdering me was a glory for them. I suffered extreme loneliness, attacks from government agents who waited patiently to arrest me. The worst of it all though , were the major DEMONS who rule in the cosmos who came against me in manifest ways, and in general ways through the religious crowd.

In India, I witnessed the Holy spirit visibly fall on those who heard my words, and saw Him enter them, to be saved! I saw great joy fall upon many who committed to baptism. I saw real healings.

In China, unannounced and by night, the true persecuted underground church came to ME!...in a small hotel room 1000 miles inland, near the ministry of Brother Yun. They were haggard and weary, and beautiful. they wanted comfort, and my word. I washed their feet, and did what I could. I never got their names, nor do I want to. They trusted me, and Christ in me, with their lives. This was all done by faith, and prayer, with no human intervention.

I did not take a camera, nor take a penny from another by solicitation. There were times of glory. yes. There were months and months of agony and depression...feeling like a dead dog at night, and Peter the apostle in the day. It was odd.

Anyway, at the end of the day, here I am again, another faceless, semi-carnal American. An unprofitable servant. I weed the garden of my heart often, and trust me, I need a major plowing to break up my fallow ground.

My best for your all for Jesus, my brother! go for it!

C

Ceri Apr 24, 2010

Brothertom I do agree with your postings, and can see that you also speak from personal experience.

Unless a person is specifically called and equiped of God to the mission fleld, that person is heading for disaster.
People have such a 'rose tinted' and 'glamorous' view of being on the mission field and working in foreign countries, but as you say, it can have such lows and times of desperation and it is true that many fall away feeling let down by God, when it was not of God that they be there in the first place.

My great aunt and uncle were missionaries to Africa for a while and worked at Niarobi Bible college. They were sent there by the leadership of their Apostolic movement. If they said "Go" you went!
My great Aunt though suffered a breakdown and they had to return to Wales. She just couldn't cope with the life. Another couple also in my mam's family split up and divorced while on the mission field.

What is wrong with working in the mission field of unsaved relatives, local neighbourhood, the workplace - someone has to reach these people too! You don't have to go abroad to shine your light - shine where you are.

I fully understand this Pastor exersising great caution and to me shows wisdom and gives time for serious thought about such a huge decision.
In the past our Pastor has been supportive of youthful zeal and enthusiasm and given his blessing in allowing young people to go abroad and follow their heart, with the church prayers and financial support, but more often than not it has ended in disasters, with, as Brothertom said 'lives being made shipwrecks' This is so true!

If it is of God then the desire will grow and nothing will stop His plans.
I do though think it so wrong if the talk of a church spilt is due to desire for missions.
That is causing people too much pain in order to gain your own means and is not honouring to God.
Unless the church leadership is leading you into wrong doctrines and heresies we are to respect and obey their leading. God has annointed people as shepherds of His flock and, at the end of the day, they have to answer to God alone for their care of us, His flock.

T

twayneb Apr 24, 2010

jiyouk:

I don't think it wise to EVER leave a church taking a bunch of people with you to start another one. I think it very wise for you to spend much time on your face before God at this time until you know if you are personally to stay or to go. From what you have described, there is simply too much opportunity to get into the flesh in the thing and leave with a spirit of offense or to leave with a spirit of spiritual ascendancy or superiority and criticism of the leadership where you are at now. None of these things will lead you anyplace good.

From the content of your post, I can see why Brothertom said what he did, and I think what he said was very good advice. I would have interpreted your post similarly.

Ultimately your alliegence does not belong to a human leader, a local church, or a denominational structure. Your head as well as mine is the Lord Jesus Christ. But that Head has instructed His body to be in subjection one to another and to Godly eldership as long as that leadership is not leading in a direction contrary to the Word of God. There are times when leaders are wrong. They are not spiritual supermen, but human servants who have been given great responsibility. We must always remember that and spend time praying for those God has set in authority in the church. If they fall, great harm can come to the body.

My advice: Don't go out and start some new church over disagreements. That is the last thing the body needs in my opinion. Spend much time in prayer over this thing before you make a move. If God moves you, don't split a church to do it. Allow God to deal with others. Always pray that the Holy Spirit would check your motives and reveal to you areas where you need to submit to God for change and correction. Make sure you are pure in heart over the deal before you attempt to make a final decision.

Travis

G

ginnyrose Apr 24, 2010

Teaching that Jesus never condemned a sinner and so therefore, we should teach love, not much about sin.

How can you expect to be an effective minister of the Gospel without preaching about sin? Did Jesus not talk much about it, warn people of its dangers?

Just wondering....

ginnyrose

J

jiyouk Apr 24, 2010

Thank you brothertom for you kind post.
I have to admit that it was I who was assumptious and assumed that you were one of those "it doesn't matter what you do, but just do it in God" guys who give the congregation a broad road to travel about. I feel you passion for Jesus and recognize that it's flame.

I'm an MK and have seen more missionaries than people can imagine. Up close and personal as well. I agree that the title is not the important thing. Anyway, thank you brother for your last words.

My best for your all for Jesus, my brother! go for it!

It would be good to meet you some day in the fields one day.

To reply some of the other peoples posts.
It's not actually for missions that we're planning on starting a new church. It's because I believe that when you are call to Jesus, you need to come to him with everything. I agree that people can have jobs and work, go to university and so on. But of the pastor starts preaching "do what you do for the glory of God." men, who have wicked hearts to begin with, do what they want to do without ever giving it all to God, and after achieving it, just like a pop star says at the academy awards "I want to thank God,"

The rich young man thought he had two hearts. A sincere heart for God, and a sincere heart for God. Jesus made him choose one. The one that he was really leaning on. The gospel demands that a person come to the cross with a whole heart.

But, I don't hear the gospel, the cross, "everything" being preached. I don't have any bad feelings against the pastor as he's not a bad man, but I just have a desire to start a church only relying on God as our source.

I know that the most dangerous thought is "i'm gonna make a better church." Thorugh the times, I've realized how I myself am a sinner so deep down. not different at all from anyone that person who is doing the wrong thing. Yet I want to stand up by faith, cause I know that there is nothing in me that can make this happen, but just having nothing to rely on but God, having no one to help but God! Seeing him work though our trust on his love!

And I know that our pastor is not the only problem.. Maybe he's even much better than all the korean pastors out there teaching prosperity gospels, or just dead religion, or super spiritual things without the gospel. Cause he's sincere about Jesus.. But I dunno.. Thats why I'm asking you elders for advice.

About the other question on how can a pastor not teach about sin... It's more easy to ask the question "who teaches about sin." Almost nobody. Not just "because of our sins he died" or something as simple as that. But really what sin is. how deep it goes. My own sins and how I'm a person who fully deserves death.. The question is no longer "who doesn't preach the gospel?" But "who does preach it" cause we have all these seemingly spiritual guys on the one hand always focused on getting "intimate with God." It is all good, but how do you get intimate? By praying? And so pray 8 hours a day. By reading the Bible and so read the bible tons? All good, but the difference is, how can I go to God? What is the basis that allows me to pray? Jesus! His cross that satisfied the wrath of God and has me crucified with HIm! Oh! whenver the holy spirit points this out, I am intimate with God. All the times I've spen on trying to be spiritual yet here it was.. The gospel.

On the other hand religious guys...

So.. Its possible. It's easier to ask who's real than whos not real...

Brother tom, where do you live by the way?
I'm in Korea right now, but I think I'm going to the states this summer.^^

J

jiyouk Apr 24, 2010

From what you have described, there is simply too much opportunity to get into the flesh in the thing and leave with a spirit of offense or to leave with a spirit of spiritual ascendancy or superiority and criticism of the leadership where you are at now.

Yes, agree with you here. I do see how leaving with a spriti of criticism or the thinking of "i'm more correct" will lead to the ultimate destruction of the new church. It is like one of the most dangerous things..
We're trying to avoid that road. Trying to communicate. Having a loving attitude toward everyone.. and understanding them.. It's still a process but I think I've become less critical than I've used to be through this process..

Sometimes though, I wonder if the church should be toppled rather than us just leaving. The lies and wrong things that the pastor did is enough to change the leadership. So am I to proclaim the truth to everyone? or leave silently? or leave with the people who want to come out with us? or stay?
I think the question centers around "how does God work?"
"are we to sit silent like david for God to handle Saul?"
Or "are we to rise for the gospel and not give in to the truth being twisted?"
Maybe the question is "the soverignty of God the main issue?" or "does man, with a facedown spirit before God need to act"

Agree that I really need to pray and check my motives as well.

T

twayneb Apr 24, 2010

Sometimes though, I wonder if the church should be toppled rather than us just leaving. The lies and wrong things that the pastor did is enough to change the leadership. So am I to proclaim the truth to everyone? or leave silently? or leave with the people who want to come out with us? or stay?

I could not begin to tell you, but I know that God can and will if you are seeking Him in the matter.

I do believe that the church is in need of reformation in so many ways. I am not disparaging the body, but I believe that God will adjust the body so that she is once again as described in the New Testament with every joint supplying as the Holy Spirit lives in and through them. I believe this will be accompanied by a return even to the NT structure of church organization and structure. That is why I say I am not so sure another "church" in a location is needed. I am not trying to advise you on specific course of action other than to seek God and have faith that when He tells you what to do you will have no doubts.

Travis