Piper on Predetermined sin

Has anyone read or heard this question and answer session of Piper's. I am struggling with this same question right now and questions similar to it.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/2370_has_god_predetermined_everything_even_sin/

(Sorry, I couldn't get the url link thing to work)

Questions similar to this are driving me crazy right now. I can see why J. Piper said that it can drive some people mad :)

One of my questions after listening to this Q&A session is:
Lets say someone is a christian and is tempted to commit adultery. if they believed what Piper teaches here- wouldn't they be thinking 'well, should i fight this temptation with everything in me or has God already predetermined that I am going to fall"?

I mean if God already predetermined everything including all suffering and sin- it can leave you feeling hopeless- like we are just puppets.

I know many people try to explain that God predetermines everything but that we also have a free will to make choices. But I don't know how it can be both. How can God hold us responsible for sin that he already predetermined?

If anyone is going to reply,please try to answer in a simple manner. I don't really want to wade through a long theology article. and please read or view the video first as well so you know where i am getting this information :)

In Him...

Your presupposition is true as long as you believe what Piper is saying is true. If it is true, then that truth makes prayer redundant, doesn't it? If "everything" is predestined, why ask God to heal a loved one, lead you to the vocation where He wants you to serve Him, and so on? Oh, I can hear it already, "that's already been 'predestined', we just think God's doing what we are asking when we pray, but we're too limited in our understanding to know that we are predestines for these things already."

This I understand, by the Holy Spirit, that Free Will is only Free until we give it away to God. When that choice is made, then, and only then, are we more "like puppets" because it is totally, "Not my will, but they will be done".

Unfortunately, it is my opinion, there may not be more than a few on this earth who are so are so unselfish to completely "die to self" as to allow God full control of our will. As much as I desire it, I see many things each day that tell me that I'm not even close to "doing the things I do not want to do".

If you are predestines to have these types of things drive you crazy, then there's nothing you can do about it. For me, is too short of a drive and I'd rather be predestined to bask in His lovingkindness, ponder His ways in my life, and ask Him to make me be who He wants me to be in every aspect of who I am.

M.B. Mathews

GOD gives to man reason and will and the
ability to choose.
But man is by nature selfish and places
his desires, interests, needs above GOD'S
purpose and will for him.
Sin is a principle within our natures.
When man willfully chooses not to follow
and serve GOD

Even if this doctrine were true, which I don't believe that it is, I see very little practical application for it. At best, it gives you an "aha" moment with some goosebumps, and an excuse to live a sub-par life. It makes you say, even as a Christian, that the reason you cannot overcome your habitual sins is because God has determined you need to keep them for some unspecified time and reason. Nevermind such stands in stark contrast to Romans 8, which says God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ. it does not say he predestined us to live our lives below where Christ would actually have us to live.

*edit*

Granted, Piper would say all this doctrine does is lead to glorifying God. But really... does it do that simply because he says it does? I believe God gets more glory out of your life when you don't sin, and walk in obedience to Him. Seems God would therefor be robbing Himself of glory, all in the name of some convoluted doctrine that says He gets glory best this way.

Keith Daniel discusses this in his audio sermon here @ SI titled, "The Tightrope Walker"; sorry I couldn't hyper-link the sermon here on my cell. You may recall the Apostle Paul saying in his letter to the Romans, "...Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase? By no means!" & in another place, "Do not give the devil a foothold." God is sovereign; however, man still has a choices to make. We as professors must strive to enter into the kingdom of God. God imparts His grace to the humble that ask Him.

Without getting into the specifics of this hairy debate, which has been debated to death, I will say that Piper would emphasize the flip side as well, that God has pre-ordained you not to sin as well. So when the situation comes up do you do this sin or not, focus not on "well if I do it, God ordained me too." Rather say "well God doesn't tempt me beyond what I can bear and moreso He has ordained a way out of this situation so I don't have to sin."

Was thinking some more about this thread and realized to understand Piper's motivation, you have to understand Piper full-spectrum on God's sovereignty. He is actually a professing 7 point Calvinist, but in no way a hyper-Calvinist. He fully asserts the responsibility of man. Through a phrase he uses, "being more biblical than theological," he keeps the tension that we do have to do something even though at the end of the day God has planned it all. I could post a link or 2 later where he explains this more if anyone is interested.

Back to the topic, he comes to this conclusion of God planning all things by scripture (could list some if you're interested, but you probably know them) and by looking at a topic like suffering. If something tragic happens to a family, a car accident killing a child, he is telling them that God is the one behind it. Why? Because otherwise what, he tells them God didn't mean for this to happen and He's just as upset about it as they are? He says if that's the case then he'll give up Christianity because a god like that isn't worth serving. He says rather that God is behind it and somehow, pulling on that Romans 8:28-30 text, this is working out for their good and conformity to Christ.

Also he arrives at this conclusion because of his view of cross centrality to life, another example that combines both suffering and sin. He views the cross as the most "spectacular" sin ever committed: the betrayal, slander, abuse, and violent murder of the Son of God. It's an interesting way to view the cross. Before I heard him described it that way, I never really looked at the cross as the people sinning, though clearly they did. Anyhoo, based off his view of sovereignty and supporting verses that make Christ's death look fore-ordained from before the foundation of the earth, he would assert that God wholly planned this heinous sin, and from that sin, His glory was certainly displayed. And so working from the cross outward, as far as a mind can handle it, he believes the same about other sins. As a side note, to the one who would abuse such a teaching and use it as license to sin, Piper would surely view them as unregenerate and the glory God will get from their sinning will be the wrath displayed on judgment day to which they are storing up.

Giggles, I can totally see Piper's view here. I can see the biblical basis, etc... but what i can't still fathom is that, let's say a terrible act is committed like severe child abuse or rape. According to this doctrine- then God ordained that to happen to that child. Of course, Piper or a Calvinist would explain that the abuser or rapist is still held responsible for their sin- even though God ordained it ??

Then down the road- how can you tell that child- God ordained for you to be abused/raped (so you can learn a good lesson through all this?) It's seems so cruel.

This brings up so many questions like this to me. I myself thought I was leaning toward being Reformed- until these questions starting popping up in my mind. I have had alot of suffering in my own life and have had to learn to make choices- to not have self pity, to choose to have joy and be happy anyway despite suffering. Now more than ever I see that we might have more free will than i thought.

I am confused and i can't accept right now that God is sovereign, so sovereign that he ordains heinous crimes and abuse and rape and murder (supposedly for the good of others and his glory) - ANd on top of that He isn't responsible for the crime but a human being is held responsble for the crime/sin. I can't wrap my mind around that.

Also can't wrap my mind around- if God predestined some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell- why would He allow the people who are predestined to go to Hell- why would he allow them to be born knowing they would spend eternity in Hell. They didn't choose to be born. They didn't get a chance. I don't see how as a Calvinist you can say they have a choice- yet are predestined for Hell already.

I wasn't asking only about sin or people using an excuse to sin :)

Thanks all for your responses so far.

In Him......

When I am at our reformed church and always hear someone say 'we deserve nothing but hell' but I know that they believe Calvinist/reformed doctrine. I struggle because i know they believe that God preordained the fall of man so that Jesus could come and save man from sin. I don't see how God can hold Adam and Eve responsible or man responsible for the fall and our sinful nature- when He already planned for it to all happen this way so he could send Jesus as savior.

Again, it seems as is man were just a pawn so that God can look good. I hate even saying this. I have been a follower of Christ for some time- but i have no peace right now about any of this.

I mean, when reformed people or calvinists then reply to these questions,they say, well God can do whatever He wants. I feel like asking why God created us in the first place- to glorify Him- I know- but if we are just pawns- it seems like a cruel game.

I know Jay Adams, a leading Biblical and reformed counselor and author, teaches christians to NOT tell their unsaved counselees that Jesus died for them- because that isn't the truth.

Still thinking :)

Then down the road- how can you tell that child- God ordained for you to be abused/raped (so you can learn a good lesson through all this?) It's seems so cruel.

_________________

Why would you tell the child that? I was abused when I was a very young at the hand of an older brother. I don't blame God for what happened, never have and I never will. I do believe my parents have accountability, especially my dad, for not giving his daughters proper covering while I was young and under his care. As an adult I am accountable for my choices, everyone goes through things in life, if one chooses to live for self those things will more then likely destroy you and eat you up, if you choose to live for Christ, there is such healing, peace and joy that is beyond what I can even express in words.

I think it just comes down to a matter of trusting and having faith in God. God is Holy, Just, and Sovereign, in all that He does. Look to the Cross, look what Jesus suffered and endured willingly for your and my sake, that is love beyond all comprehension! I have come to see that if I desire to know and love the Lord at some point I must trust and have faith that I am never going to have all the answers but knowing how much HE loves me is enough! This is just my heart on that matter, I will pray for you. I find that if I am always searching for "answers" i often miss out on precious time of just sitting at His feet and getting to know Jesus the person!

God Bless
mj

Edited to be hopefully more clear

MJ,

I would never tell a child that. But just recently was in our church service listening to a reformed pastor say to the congration (full of children as well) that all suffering including abuse and rape, etc.... is caused by God. He said that he knows people like to say 'allowed' because it seems nicer. but that it is really God 'causing'. I had to wonder how many children might wonder why God would cause them to be hurt or abused or whatever. That just really threw me off.

As a parent, it is hard not to think that God does not want harm to come to a child/person but that people have a free will to choose to sin or not. God is not going to make someone NOT sin becasue that would be taking their free- will away. Then we would be nothing but puppets. Anyway, that's what I always believed prior to hearing that all suffering and all sin is preordained by God.

In Him......

edit: MJ- I am sorry to hear about your abusive situation when you were little. That saddens me- but I am glad to see that you have trusted God with it and are at peace about it. God bless you :)

God does not see time as we do, how he accomplishes His plan for redemption and justice is more complex than anyone can imagine.

Even if man had a free will, God still created people whom He knows will never choose Him, try to imagine for a moment that there was never a time when God didn't know what was going to happen. It is impossible for God to "discover" somthing new, He did not reach a point in time where He formulated His plan for you, it has always been for eternity. Hard to imagine, but again this is wayy beyond how we think about time.
- Joe

Hi Chanin,

With reluctance I will weigh in on this subject. The confusion is caused by a great misunderstanding of God's purposes in redemption. Error begets more error. The trouble is that folk are so intrenched in their views that it is almost impossible to even talk about the topic. I have suffered more abuse on this one subject than any other.

No doctrine can be formulated that does not square with God's revelation of Himself. It does not glorify God to paint Him as the author of sin, etc. and then suggest that, "It's none of our business" because God is sovereign and does what He wishes. God is sovereign. But He has demonstrated His willingness to use that sovereignty to express His benevolence. God is love. God's love is the love that lays down His life for His enemies. If Jesus told us the dangers of offending a little one that believes in him (millstone, etc.) how would He then turn and ordain the behavior? It is blasphemous to suggest that God is the cause behind a sinner's sin. This is to switch God and Satan. What does the story of Job show us? It is Satan that seeks to undo the faith of the saints. Peter found the same also when he was to be sifted.

The concept of 'the will' is difficult to define biblically. God simply says, "Chose ye!" We have the capacity to make a choice. We can obey or disobey God. When God's word comes to us it contains the grace to carry it out. No word from God shall be void of power. So when God says, "Thou shalt not kill" He does not then turn around and ordain men to sin and then send them to hell for following His orders. That turns the entire word of God into nonsense from beginning to end. It makes the conversation between God, Eve, Adam and the serpent into nonsense. God ends up blaming the serpent for His own actions.

Let me say lovingly here that the problem is that men cannot resist seeking to understand these types of apparent philosophical paradoxes. It becomes a source of polarization for the people of God. It becomes a cause of sifting of faith also. I tell you the truth that if we as believers got up and preached a God that damns souls to hell unconditionally and saves others without any respect to a response to Him, etc., then the whole cross of Christ would become of no effect and the God of love as depicted in the scriptures would become the Father of Lies. So we are told to keep these secrets 'in-house' so as not to offend the world.

John Wesley once said that it would be better to say that the passages in question make no sense at all than to say they make a sense such as this (unconditional election etc.). We need to go back and look at the scriptures afresh. Does God really teach that He unconditionally damns sinners or causes sinners to sin, etc? God has consistently revealed Himself as a God of love. His call (command) to repentance is real. He does not command all men everywhere to repent with His mouth with a different conclusion in mind. He is not a double minded man. He treats us as if we are living in the moment with no view to the future. If we want to know about God we must look at Jesus Christ. He wept. He lamented when Jerusalem did not turn to Him. What double mindedness would a man have to have to will something on the one hand and lament the decision the next? It does not make sense and even the teachers of it know it. It does not square with God as He has revealed Himself in His Son. Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me." He warned about hurting (offending) them. The doctrine does not square with your conscience. Don't give in to it. God is a benevolent God that has His eye on the sparrow. No doctrine can change that.

Well thought reply, I respect the sensitivity with which you responded,
Grace to you Robert,
Joe

I would never tell a child that. But just recently was in our church service listening to a reformed pastor say to the congration (full of children as well) that all suffering including abuse and rape, etc.... is caused by God. He said that he knows people like to say 'allowed' because it seems nicer. but that it is really God 'causing'. I had to wonder how many children might wonder why God would cause them to be hurt or abused or whatever. That just really threw me off.

I understand, I have personally never heard this kind of teaching before so I am not really sure I should comment to much further. I just know that in the Lord I have always found peace and love. I hope I did not offend you with my post in any way. I will pray for you to have understanding in what the Lord is seeking to show you through all of this though.

God bless
mj

Thank you MJ for your prayers :)

Robert, thank you for trying to explain things to me in lay terms :) I don't know why I am struggling and fighting with this right now. The church we had been going to that is reformed in theology- i just can't bring myself to go back. I keep fighting with myself if it's my own problem or what. Many sermons are wonderful and they do teach alot about changing and growing. But now I see all their words completely different. I can't listen to them teach about not being lukewarm, etc... and then try to infuse that with their other reformed teachings. It doesn't make sense. I know I am a very black and white person. That's probably part of my problem.

I am just praying that even if i can't find the answers that I am looking for, that at least I will find a sense of peace in what I believe and who God is. I know I've been through alot in these past few years which has really rocked my faith even more. I can't beleive that I once thought i knew exactly what I believed and thought i knew it all :)

Anyway, what I can't understand is my feelings of guilt for not going back to that church. I can't figure out if it's my own obsessive thinking/false guilt or if it's from the Lord. There are no other churches around that I can find that are even close to preaching truth with any conviction. This church has conviction- but it is decidedly Reformed.

Ahh, I just want some peace :)

Thanks again.
In Him......

I know I've been through alot in these past few years which has really rocked my faith even more. I can't beleive that I once thought i knew exactly what I believed and thought i knew it all :)

I have never seen a person hear the views you alluded to that it did not shock them or in some way sift their faith; so you are not alone. No one can imagine Jesus Christ, that is the image of the invisible God, (to have seen Him is to have seen the Father) stand up and lament the rejection of Him in Jerusalem like He did if He had actually foreordained their actions.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34)

Time for some common sense. Did Jesus Christ put on a show here? Was their guile found in His mouth? Was the poison of asps under his lips. Did Jesus Christ the Son of God in expression of the person of the Father here say, "Oh Jerusalem that did what I ordained of thee! Why did I predetermine to doom and damn thee, Oh Jerusalem! Why did I kill the prophets through thee, oh Jerusalem!"

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:42-48)

Is God a publican? What blasphemy! God's Love (agape) is our example of how we are to Love and if we have some sort of 'back-room theology' meant for the illuminated and spiritual then we can effectively just love in that back-room theological sense. To be like 'God' I can just go out an arbitrarily distribute my love and when questioned I can just tell the person, "It's none of your business!" I mean, if that's really how God is then we are commanded to love like God loves (to be like God). Let's all just go out and love like our back-room God loves? Is this what the Bible teaches?

If we are called to be 'perfect' even as the heavenly Father is perfect; that perfection means that we love indiscriminately. That is what the Bible reveals. Forget philosophy. If I am called to be conformed to the image of God then I need to act like Jesus Christ because He is the express image of His person. If that person is not what I have believed He is then I need to adjust my behavior to reflect these new revelations. Can that be true? Can I love arbitrarily and call myself a Christian? The canned answer? It's none of your business what God does! Sure it is! I need to know how to act and live in this world and the only revelation I have is in the Bible. Whatever God the theologians come up with I hope they are planned to imitate Him in His distribution of His love and grace. If God don't treat all with grace and love then to be consistent I should not either. But if God has commended His love towards us that while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly - then that must be my reference point. God is Love and how we understand that one truth is utterly important.

Robert,

thank you. this makes alot of sense to me. I will be thinking on this for awhile tonight :)

In Him....

It's not problem. I just became a bit concerned that the issue has brought confusion. I think we need to focus on God's Love. We need to know that God really loves us.

About trying to "wrap my head around" some concepts... are those Bible concepts, or are they those of men?

Some ideas of man, in general, may be so difficult to understand. I heard one theologian say God himself couldn't understand some theories - because they aren't true! (Like, can you understand why 2 + 2 is 498 ? No one can; it isn't true!)

About the idea of God predetermining everything: When Israel said God was taking them into the desert to kill them, God didn't like it. This is mentioned in Hebrews and also Numbers. Without re-quoting all the scriptures, to sum it up, God wanted Israel to believe in His goodness because of all they had seen (deliverance from Egypt, etc.). God REALLY didn't like it that they said God was going to kill them.

That is the problem with the idea that God kills people, innocent people, destroys His children, etc.

One thing Piper mentioned was in Proverbs 16 - verse 33. He referred to it as the most random thing possible. But it was a specific thing - like rolling dice. One elucidation of this verse is that it refers to the Urim and Thummin, which God is supposed to control. This does not imply it refers to ALL dice throws, etc.

We can have that God DOES cause SOME things to happen (like the result of consulting the Urim and Thummin), but not necessarily all.

What about Job? The Lord giveth, said Job, and the Lord taketh away. However, we ought to note that Job also - later - said that he didn't know what he was talking about! And, in Job, God said something about "words without knowledge". Also, it is clear in Job that God did NOT do those things to Job - the devil did. God merely allowed them.

The main thing I see is that, based on Numbers 14-15 and Hebrews, the thing to avoid is accusing God of trying to do bad things.

Jesus taught that God is good. He even said he, Jesus, was not good, but only the Father. Jesus also said the devil came to kill, steal and destroy, but that Jesus came to give life. It is important to note that Jesus made a distinct contrast.

So, I would be encouraged, and not believe that God is going to cause bad things. I really don't think the Bible teaches that, at all... regardless of the opinions of man. Jesus warned of taking the statements (traditions) of religious leaders over the word of god.

I have heard that allowing man any choice about anything, equated to God not absolutely determining everything, makes man more powerful than God. We aren't of this mind, however, when good people refrain from committing sins they are tempted to commit. This argument for God's predetermination of all things, is to my mind, rather ethnocentric - assuming that God, like us, has to PROVE his power or else He doesn't have it. It applies the values of fallen man to a Holy God.

How often do people not do things, even though they could? This is not weakness, at least in men, but quite often wisdom! Quite often, in fact, it is goodness - when a person COULD commit a crime to hurt another, and chooses to not do that thing.

First, let me reiterate - we are NOT mere pawns. In an earlier post I read that IF we are God's pawns, then life seems a cruel game. How true! (true IF we are but pawns... but we are not).

Study Numbers 14 and related chapters, like the book of Hebrews, and see that when God said "How long will it be until they believe in me?" that He was asking how long until they quit blaming me for all the bad things.

That is what they did - and you know, I felt sorry for them reading about it.

They wept, Numbers tells us.

But, if we are supposed to stomach the cruelty (which is not true) of God, then this might be much easier to stomach - that God was angry because they thought He would kill them! They said that God had the nature / inclination / desire / predetermination / choice / whatever - to KILL them. But God said, "They have not known My ways."

Is God angry with Christians today, who say the same things about him? Israel had a negative expectation about God (a belief that God was cruel), and THAT made God angry.

This ought to tell us something - that when we today say God destroys his people, then possibly we, like Israel of old, don't know His ways.

I am not trying to criticize any theologian, but to get across a positive point - that God is good! We are commanded to have faith by Jesus. How can we expect anything good from God, when we believe God is the source of all our problems?