If a person professes to be a follower of Christ and does not care about holiness are they truly saved? Can you really be saved and not care about the things of His Kingdom?
in HIM
ellie
Only those who partake of His divine nature;
which is holiness, will be invited and welcomed
in His kingdom !!
Maybe that person's understanding of holiness is clouded.
I suppose we are familiar with the scripture in Hebrews that tells us without holiness we will not see the Lord.
Also, the word of God tells us to be holy for God is holy.
Holiness is total seperation from this world.
If we don't want seperation from this world, and do not want to be holy as God is holy, then, we are lost.
Maybe that person's understanding of holiness is clouded. I suppose we are familiar with the scripture in Hebrews that tells us without holiness we will not see the Lord. Also, the word of God tells us to be holy for God is holy. Holiness is total seperation from this world. If we don't want seperation from this world, and do not want to be holy as God is holy, then, we are lost.
This is a great point. This person does not want to seperapte themselves from "some" things of this world. I do want to be careful though because you are also correct in saying that it does depend on what a persons understanding of hoilness is. I think I will do some research on that and see what the Bible standard is:)
Thank you most kindly for the replies
in HIM
ellie
The best example for holiness is Christ, i always liked the quote from Keith Daniel i think it is. "holiness without Christ is heresy"
Many do abstain from the world and fleshly lusts, but the aroma of christ still seem missing somehow. Holiness is Christlikness... may we all pursue that standard
A selfish desire for happiness is as sinful as any other selfish desire. Its root is in flesh which can never have any standing before God.... People are coming more and more to excuse every sort of wrongdoing on the grounds that they are “just trying to secure a little happiness...”
The effect of this modern hedonism (pleasure seeking) is felt also among the people of God. The gospel is too often presented as a means toward happiness, to peace of mind or security. There are even those who use the Bible to “relax” them, as if it were a drug.
How far wrong all this is will be discovered easily by the simple act of reading the New Testament through once with meditation. There the emphasis is not upon happiness but upon holiness. God is more concerned with the state of people’s hearts than with the state of their feelings. Undoubtedly the will of God brings final happiness to those who obey, but the most important matter is not how happy we are but how holy.
The whole matter of personal holiness is highly important to God!... Morally, we dare not ignore this commandment, “Be ye holy.” (A.W. Tozer)
_____________________
I was sharing this topic with my husband and he sent me this. I think if it is important to God it really had better be important to me too!
in Him
ellie
Ellie wrote:
Can you really be saved and not care about the things of His Kingdom?
Imagin you were a subject of a great King whom you love for being just and caring to his people, would you not care about the peace of his just kingdom? If you didnt than you would have been an hypocrite. It is not much different with Jesus Christ and his kindgom, if we truly love him we will care about his kingdom of peace,righteouness & joy.Many christians are in a carnal state of heart and many who are carnal just deny the possibility of being carnal because their theology does not leave any room for such a word. Scripture is clear, if you are a christian you either live in the Spirit or live in the flesh. You either crusify the flesh with its pasions & evil desires ot you dont.You either bear fruit or are barren.
Many people have been converted and have been born of God, and im sure that if you have the posibility and ability to examine there spiritual state, you will find out that the majority is backsliding. And there are different subtle forms of backsliding, from outward rebelion of someone who goes back to the world like a prodigal son, to a sophisticated backslider who very orthodox, reads the bible often, prays often, goes to church and puts efforts to be a good moral christian.
Not many are those who keep their hearts clean by the blood and soften by grace. who have a daily relationship with Jesus, and know by experience the power of sanctifying grace to transform their lives into the likeness of Jesus.
holiness is not total separation from worldliness...holiness is not a lot of things we claim...holiness is the prescence of God...you are holy if you are in Christ...you are holy because Christ is in you...the hope of glory...how else can you have holy ground...holy bible etc.walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...holiness is the walking in the spirit...john 3 16 has a little greek word ens which clearly means into not in or on...en...if we are not to call a man good how can we call him holy apart from God.jimp
If a person professes to be a follower of Christ and does not care about holiness are they truly saved? Can you really be saved and not care about the things of His Kingdom?
in HIM
ellie
NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION...
...not yesterday and not tomorrow.
Just because someone, whether carnal or not, once experienced the work of salvation at a certain point in time, does not mean they are walking in the EXPERIENCE of IT in the NOW. Salvation is a present tense process anticipating it's full reality in the future.
The question should not be "are they saved?", because they may have been at one point. The question should be, "are they living in the regenerative power of God now?"
Jesus is Faithful and True. Even so, because He remains unchanging, if we deny Him our thoughts, our words, and/or our deeds, in the same manner we are a-voiding Him, he will deny us.
Nobody but One can really determine if a person is walking towards The Way of Jesus Christ.
Only by another's conversation (aka: daily walk), with the witness of the Spirit of Jesus Christ to you, can you rilly know yourself if another is found in Him. This Spirit is not of your judgement(alism), so going around questioning whether another is or not is not for you to even question.
God did not save you to judge things not relative to your life.
If God is saving you, it is to judge yourself. Like mom and dad and all my grandparents sometimes scolded me, "Mind your own business. You have more than enough on your plate already."
If neccessary, SOMETIMES, His Spirit REVEALS to you the NEEDS for the heart condition of another. Walking in Him ministering His life to person(s) of your dealing, in the interest of their better welfare (and yours), this is a time for you to get on your knees, if not in your body, at least in your heart.
This is your business: the message of reconciliation from God to the whole world... and if you are going to beat anybody over the head with this, beat your own head until this sinks deep in your own heart, so all that you see and intend is to give the life of Jesus to others in what you do, as well as what you think and say.
If you are being saved, there will always be two concerns on your mind in regard to becoming a more active happy joyful healthy child of God.
Salvation's first issue is holiness, knowing you are being selected as part of God's family. You are being called out from the world and following Jesus NOW: SO YOU ARE distinctly different. This we take part in through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Holiness means that we become nothing like anything in this world, paradox to everything that is in it. To live, we die. To mature we become like a child. To be exhalted we humble ourselves and on and on the realizations come through growing into Jesus Christ. In this we are apprehending His nature.
What comes through this knowledge into holiness, is what God has created at the very core of our being, before we could even understand what salvation is all about. This second part is called sanctification. We take part in this through the body of Jesus Christ.
Seperating ourselves towards serving God's purpose in purity, we are apprehending His Life.
The last part of the regenerative process is experienced first and the first part comes last. Being made different, adopted into the family of our Father, we grow in Him. As he made us, we are purified to become renewed taking on the mind of Christ, becoming a living sacrafice
Only by another's conversation (aka: daily walk), with the witness of the Spirit of Jesus Christ to you, can you rilly know yourself if another is found in Him. This Spirit is not of your judgement(alism), so going around questioning whether another is or not is not for you to even question.
I do walk daily with this person, they profess to be saved but have no desire for the things of His Kingdom and they do not see a need to live a holy life. I am not judging this person, I am asking a question based on their fruit if they are saved because there is a very real chance that they are deceiving themselves. I happen to believe we are to walk with our brothers and sisters and encourage them in the Lord. If one still has the same relationship with sin that they did before they came to Christ I think that is very telling and should be addressed in love, in Christ Jesus.
I take seriously that we are our brothers keeper:) In another words we are their to help and support one another, and those times when we see a sister in sin, in love we share with them in hopes that they will repent and turn to God:)
Just some of what the Lord is placing on my heart thus far:)
in HIM
ellie
Do you know which sermon Keith Daniel preached on this topic?
"holiness without Christ is heresy"
This simple comment is so filled with profound implications. It reminds me of Jonathan Edward's sermon "The Way of Holiness".
"Have you ever read the four Gospels, and did you not observe in the life of Christ wonderful instances of humility, love to God, love to religion; wonderful instances of zeal for God's glory, steadfastness in resisting temptations, entire trust and reliance on God, strict adherence to all his commands; astonishing instances of condescension, humility, meekness, lowliness, love to men, love to his enemies, charity and patience?
Why, this is holiness. When we imitate Christ in these things, then are we holy, and not till then."
Wonderful quote, Compton!
With care in Christ...
...holiness is the prescence of God...you are holy if you are in Christ...you are holy because Christ is in you...the hope of glory...
Thats right brother, Christ in us is our holiness. We are not called to be hermits or monks and seperate from the world. God calls us to be witnesses to the world and our seperation is inwardly, its a subjective holiness and purity that seperates us from the filthiness of the world. If the cup is not clean inside but only outside, who will want to drink its filthy water. So it is with us, if we are not pure inside our hearts, the outward righteouness (or self-righteouness) will make us followers of pharisees.Its the cross that divides and seperates us spiritualy from the world. If you know the power of the cross of Jesus, the world has lost its charm and attraction on us. We are in the world but not of it. Is the world crucified to us? I want to ask myself this question first. Its of no worth theologizing and not goin straight to the point and examine our hearts to see if we realy are in the faith and hate the world and love the kindgom of God and his will.
I struggle with my flesh and its evil influences, there is an inner conflict of the flesh and the Spirit in me. How short we fall to present our bodies as a living sacrifice daily, holy and acceptable to God? We are so zealous about knowledge and doctrines, if someone has a question, there will be many one us that will jump to give an answer (i am one of them), but when it comes to the fruit of the Spirit we lack so much humility and the brotherly affection.
I wonder if someone will talk about humility, how many of us will be intrested not only to talk, as they say talk is cheap but to desire and practice it in our lives. Pride is of the flesh and humility of the Spirit, it is the condition to be fulfilled to be exalted in the Kingdom of God and be famous in heavan.
What about forgiveness...how many are intrested on that subject, thats important too, in our relationship with God & men. If we want to be forgiven by God we have to forgive. Its easy to forgive a freind, but very hard to forgive your enemy, especially someone who wants to hurt you.
We want love, peace and joy with God but what about righteuosness of life? Sometimes we think that all we need is faith and we will receive every blessing we desire. Thats true but it should be proceeded for a christian by repentance and brokeness of heart over sin.
Im not sure how many of us want real holiness after realizing, what it takes to die to self and of the ambitions of the world and what it means to bear up the cross and follow Him.
There's is a big difference between being saved and being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not earned by our efforts but its a free gift of God received by faith and it has been accomplished at the cross. In other words it is all of grace. But discipleship has an 'If' as a condition. And Jesus made it clear in the gosples, the requirements and conditions of discipleship.
Jesus said to his disciples, go and make disciples of all the nations...He didnot say go and save as many souls as you can among the nations. That's impossible, salvation is the work of God not man, but making disciples is our call, if we are ourselves disciples of the Lord.
***edited***
My simple answer in response to the original question is that I don't think so. This verse comes to my mind:
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14
Jesus also tells us that if we love him we will obey him. One of his commands is to be holy as his Father in heaven is holy. He also tells us to seek first his kingdom.
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24
My simple answer in response to the original question is that I don't think so. This verse comes to my mind: "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14 Jesus also tells us that if we love him we will obey him. One of his commands is to be holy as his Father in heaven is holy. He also tells us to seek first his kingdom.
I very much liked this answer and I agree with you RoseM.
God bless
maryjane
"Holiness without Christ is heresy." Actually, holiness without Christ is simply self willed effort and is, because of that very fact, an inherently unholy thing. Holiness without Christ was the very thing through which those who prided themselves in keeping the law were trying to approach God. God said it was self-righteousness and filthy rags.
Actually, disobedience is an unholy thing. The outward manifestations of holiness, refraining from certain things of the world, living a physically and mentally pure life, etc. are simply the manifestations of being the righteousness of God in Christ, the fruit of a born again spirit, and not necessarily a thing in itself. I hope that came across the way I intended it. I am not right with God because of holiness, I think all would agree with that. But what level of holiness is indicative of being born again? How would we use a standard of holiness as an indicator of salvation? It is absolutely true that a born again man will manifest more and more as he grows a Christ-likeness as a result of what has happened in his spirit. But this outward transformation comes as this person's mind is renewed by the Word of God. It is possible to stay a spiritual babe for quite some time. I think we have all seen that, especially when there is a lack of solid teaching of the word.
As to the original question, have any of you ever disobeyed God in an area of your life since you have been born again? That disobedience is by definition an unholy thing. I believe it is possible for a person to be born again and not manifest the outward indicators of holiness that we all could probably identify. But this is a dangerous place for such a person to live. This is why we need to disciple.
Travis
Hi guys
I was asking this question because of a woman who professes to be a christian but shows no fruit in her life what so ever. She does not like to read the Bible, she hates being around other Christians most of the time(her words) she does not want to be bothered with extending herself to others, she holds on to anger(for soon to be ex husband). She does not believe that anything is required of her in her relationship with Christ. He died for her, she accepted that and she is saved(her explanation of what she believes being saved means) She does not see a need to die to self, repent of sin(she said she already did it that one time) or to live a holy life.
She really believes she is saved and I am praying about how to share with her because honestly her life bares no fruit...
Thanks
ellie
by wind_blows on 2010/4/29 6:22:44
I do walk daily with this person, they profess to be saved but have no desire for the things of His Kingdom and they do not see a need to live a holy life. I am not judging this person, I am asking a question based on their fruit if they are saved because there is a very real chance that they are deceiving themselves. I happen to believe we are to walk with our brothers and sisters and encourage them in the Lord. If one still has the same relationship with sin that they did before they came to Christ I think that is very telling and should be addressed in love, in Christ Jesus.
g sed:
If they claim to be a Christian and do not have any different relationship with sin, explain the difference (through the scriptures) of the one who is being saved and the one who is not.
Matthew 7:21-23 spells the difference out and the end result. Note v.23 and what Jesus is saying, "I NEVER knew you. Depart, you who break God's laws."
There's alot of ways this can be approached, and it is up to you to follow the Spirit's lead.
Last time this was dealt with, over the course of 5 weeks, it came down to the chap being told because he was not repentant for walking in sin, a he still staked a claim to being saved, he had no business among us. (The pastors nor elders had the nerve to approach Him, but would not hesitate to talk behind his back. Seeing this, i went and began dealing with him one on one, telling the leaders to pray in accord with me about this, that this guy will experience the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Whenever He is brought to mind, like now, he is one of many who are interceeded for. He walked away and avoids me like the plague now, except when he needs something.
The leaders became very harsh towards him when he showed up for an after church feast, and though i could not abide in this at that moment, God did not indicate to me to do anything otherwise.
Redfaced, i backed the lead of those overseeing that Body when he looked at me and said, "so this is what you call Christian love?".
i said, "Yes, but only to those who claim to be part of the Faith but their lives do not show it. You are not of this family, and until you admit it and repent, 'shun' is the word."
If they have a relationship in Jesus Christ, they have a different relationship with sin, plain and simple. Paul says we are to have nothing to do with those who claim to be believers yet do not live it.
Ellie continues:
I take seriously that we are our brothers keeper:) In another words we are their to help and support one another, and those times when we see a sister in sin, in love we share with them in hopes that they will repent and turn to God:)
Your concern was sensed the moment the starter you wrote for this thread was read. Do not hesitate to share Him you know as Truth.
8^)
The flesh can cause one to do things that just are not in keeping at all with God. This is an issue of not denying self,and making Christ's cross their own... however from what you indicate, she seems to be so non-chalant about the whole issue (like the fellow i dealt with mentioned above), It will be a matter of learning to ignore what you think or feel and following His leading...irregardless.
We shall pray that God brings her to the place to recognize her need as a deep desire in her grows towards God's ways and will.
Begin pointing as many conversations as you can towards what God is doing in your life and what he will do for anybody who is willing to follow Him.
one of many friends here,
g
p.s. the whole judgemental thing was intended as a disclaimer and not a pointing of fingers at you. Knowing this post would prolly be read by many, it was written as such, and the end word signing off: agapeo was intended to indicate this failing to regard that most readers will say, "that's greek to me." Agapeo is a verb indicating social civility akin to what you are learning from Him in being your brothers keeper.
;^)
I was asking this question because of a woman who professes to be a christian but shows no fruit in her life what so ever. She does not like to read the Bible, she hates being around other Christians most of the time(her words) she does not want to be bothered with extending herself to others, she holds on to anger(for soon to be ex husband). She does not believe that anything is required of her in her relationship with Christ. He died for her, she accepted that and she is saved(her explanation of what she believes being saved means) She does not see a need to die to self, repent of sin(she said she already did it that one time) or to live a holy life. She really believes she is saved and I am praying about how to share with her because honestly her life bares no fruit...
That does indeed shed a little different light on the discussion. I know of a lot of people who would say they were Christians due to the fact that they were born in America and their money says, "In God We Trust". Obviously they are deceived. This woman sounds deceived as well. I will pray that God gives you a way to lovingly but honestly open the scriptures to her and show her what it means to be saved. It is possible she was born again, but is sounds like she most likely believes something akin to ,"I came forward and had my ticket punched so I must be OK."
Travis
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