John 19:30
The wording of this verse makes the sour wine seem significant. I was wondering about the symbolic and spiritual significance of sour wine. I found some basic answers in the ESV Study Bible on Carm.org and Catholic Answers Forums, regarding prolonging Jesus life and easing His suffering, but I thought some of you might have deeper insight.
Matthew 27:48
Mark 15:36
Luke 23:36
In Psalms 69:21 we find there is mention of sour wine, and so the significance maybe Jesus fulfilling this foreshadow of prophecy.
In Isaiah 31:29-30 there are mention of the fathers eating Sour Grapes and the childrens teeth being on edge I believe this is a prophecy of the New Covenant noting the fact that everyone will be accountable for their own sins instead of the sins falling on the 3rd and 4th Generation as the Old Covenant did, by Jesus drinking the sour wine ie Sour grapes he took this aspect away from the New covenant making every man accountable only for their sins instead of the sins of their past generation.
I would look up the verses I gave and see if you see the same things I see.
God Bless,
Matthew
Thank you,
Psalm 69 definitely seems to connect to messianic prophecy. The other verse must be a typo because there is no Isaiah 31:29! I'm assuming you meant Jeremiah 31:29, which is quite illuminating, especially since Jeremiah 31:31 points directly at the new covenant; however, it becomes complicated because Jesus refused the sour wine after tasting it, so he tasted the inheritance of sin through the cross and then rejected it or ended it? "It is finished" follows the tasting. Thank you. Let me know if you think this is a proper interpretation.
I apologize it is going to be Jeremiah not Isaiah.
I think you are correct on the intrepretation if someone else knows further input would be appreciated by me as well, great question! You may also check out Ezekiel 18 gives an expanded thought on the Sour Grapes thing
*edited*
Never really thought beyond first impressions when reading that, however, the idea that pops up in this head when doing so is akin to what Matt says. That response seems right, however, those who do not take part in the (re)NEW(ed) COVENANT are seen suffering all sins of all others as well as their own (Rom. 5:12,15,16,17)
Sour wine (to me) represents the effects of sin on the human nature, because leaven (aka yeast / aka candida) and it's growth process actually does rivet whatever it effects with little holes, making deterioration quicker through oxidation, promoting further fermination.
[That is why people who drink regularly (and/or excessively) have a redness to them, the cells of their bodies suffering on a scale larger than the bodies ability to repair itself:little holes-their cells actually bleeding out through these holes made by the yeast laden alcohol.]
The sponge being riddled with holes already, and not bread, seems to say to me that this is what will remain of your body through the effects of sin: nothing.
This subject being brought up spurs me to look further. Anticipated are other replies. If none come, i'll search deeper.
Thanks,
g
"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~
Heb. 11:6
It's all about faith: trusting reliant confidence in the only One who is forever Faithful and Truth, Lord Messiah King Jesus.
So Jesus never experienced the Genealogical inheritance of sin. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and though He was born of the flesh, He did not inherit sin. Therefore if the connection can be made to sour grapes, the sour wine would reveal Jesus first encounter with inherited sin, which he rejects on the cross, right before death in fulfillment of breaking off the inheritance of sin. That said we must be careful to continue to realize that Jesus died with the burden of human sin upon Him.
This is fascinating, my only qualm is that the connection between sour grapes and sour wine is not direct. Sour grapes usually refers to unripe grapes, whereas sour wine is vinegar. The taste isn't the same.
On top of this, we can think about the nazarite vow, which excludes vinegar, although I'm not entirely sure how that connects.
I would be more sure if a stronger connection could be made between sour grapes and sour wine, though EDIT Jeremiah 31:29-31 makes a strong connection, two or three verses would be preferable.
The bitterness of sour grapes comes from either/and/or
1) eating them when they are not quite ripe.
(the connotations of bitterness are too numerous to state here.)
2) not getting enough 'water"
(see all of IS. 55 re: water (and sustenance)/ Jn. 3:5
3)Lack of proper nutrients towards growth. / Jn 15
g
Thanks,
That list brings out some interesting points.
Tying these verses to John 15 and the vine and the branch is mind twisting.
I'm going to have to pray about these connections.
I'm fascinated by the possibilities here, but I would be uncomfortable teaching this openly with only one verse strongly or directly making the connection between the sour wine and inherited sin.
On a more basic level, Jesus fulfills what he says in Matthew 26:29 (and others) by spitting out the wine rather than drinking it.
While I'm sure "sour wine" is the term required, I would just point out that there are "degrees" of vinegar, and that a "vin aigre" might be a perfectly nice drink, if it is still closer to wine than to what we think of as vinegar.. I knew that he didn't drink it, but it is also my own personal understanding that sour wine is actually vinegar. I thought that they were trying to torture him even more by giving him vinegar and not to help him with his pain.
Yes. I believe it's right to associate it with sin.The wording of this verse makes the sour wine seem significant. I was wondering about the symbolic and spiritual significance of sour wine.
Put in context of the last supper, there are these two verses which confirm each other:
Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:25
In consideration of what and when 'that day' may be, I would suggest it is 'this day' for us, which dawned at Pentecost. Hence, the capitalised verbs below are in the present tense.
Hebrews 12: 22 But ye ARE COME unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [ones](literal amplificiation), which ARE WRITTEN in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that SPEAKETH better things than [that of] Abel.
John 8:23, John 18:36,
Acts 2:13, Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22.
John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Nehemiah 10:39 reminds me of an old pentecostal chorus which sings
Bless the Lord, O my soul
And magnify His wonderful name
For the glory of the Lord is mine forever
Jesus is ever the same
For the Lord saved me
And gave me liberty
To tell the world that Jesus is mine
He has given me the wine
To make my heart rejoice
And the oil to make my face to shine.
This, surely, is taken from the Old Testament - Psalm 104:15 And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart.
{oil...: Heb. to make his face shine with oil, or, more than oil}
Again, the bread takes us straight back to the last supper and many other Old Testament images, within which 'sour wine' stands in extreme contrast of the meaning of those occasions. Luke 22:19, 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
We probably try not to compute just how much blood was shed in those days to 'cover' sin, which Jesus was to dispel with one powerfully simple statement: Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Cor 11:26.
I believe it's important to remember the meaning of the 'sour wine' and to recognise the enormity of what His death accomplished, every time we take bread and wine together. Too often it is rushed, instead of expecting to judge ourselves that we be not judged, tarrying for one another while all our hearts are made right with God again, in true fellowship - of His death AND His life.
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