hoohoou
May 3, 2010
This is pretty telling of the state of the world. I'm afraid we need to get ready for this in the States as well.
This is pretty telling of the state of the world. I'm afraid we need to get ready for this in the States as well.
Thank God for faithful witnesses like our brother.
Yikes, this could have happened to me. I also called homosexuality a sin while we went out street preaching yesterday somewhere in London. I mentally prepare myself for arrest some time. Usually I name homosexuality in a range with other sins so that I do not single it out.
Please could I present another angle on this 'persecution' of Christians preaching in public.
Having worked with the Police in community safety, and my husband also works in public services, it is not so much what you are preaching, as where you are preaching, and have you gained the relevant permission.
In order to preach or hold any type of event in public you have to notify and obtain permission from local authorities first.
The problem though to authorities (police & local council) nowadays is that if they grant one group or person permission - they then have to treat everyone the same and grant permission to all - it would be a free-for-all, I'm sure us Christians would then be deeply upset about people with opposing views being granted permission to also state their case in the street.
This scenario would result in a nightmare for people such as my hubby who has to cover public order, keep the peace and maintain crowd control in public places.
Rather than allow a situation that could lead to chaos and enflame clashes between opposing religious or any other groups they would rather keep the public peace.
One occasion I was cringing with embarrasment when a (so called)Christian lady was arrested and brought in for violation of public peace. She was constantly shouting and screaming "you can't touch me, I'm a child of God!I'm covered by His blood, you can't touch me!!"
I must say she angered me so much and all I wanted to do was tell her off and shake some sense into her! The sarg on duty at the time was a lovely christian man who just looked at me and shrugged his shoulders, with a look that said it all! Her behaviour was not a good christian witness at all and she was viewed by all as being a crazy woman.
My hubby has had to stop people such as traders, buskers, charity collectors(for your own peace of mind as genuine charities will have been granted permission and been issued with a permit - so any other will be fake!)
even children doing penny for a guy'as this is illegal public begging and has led to distress calls to my husband due public being hassled for money.
Anyone operating in a public place has to have a permit to be there.
I find it a shame to hear of Christians being arrested for preaching in the street, as they would have been asked to stop more than once and been warned of an arrest if they persist.
This has nothing to do with persecution but is for the prevention of enciting public anger and for the person's own safety too. I know that the Police hate to arrest and will only do so if they really have to - due to the amount of paper work this entails which then takes them off duty for the rest of the shift! My hubby has been hours late home if he's been involved in an arrest just before his shift ends.
Thing is, if there is trouble who has to come and sort it out - if speakers are assaulted by an angry public who then has to deal with it.
I've heard some Christians say that we should not be involved in politics, government and local authorities, and then are the first to complain when they don't have a voice.
I thank God that we do have Christians in Parliament, local authorities and Police who make a stand for their beliefs and are being salt and light in their work place.
We are still allowed to hold Good Friday enactments complete with a Jesus being crucified - and public Easter morning celebrations. Churches are allowed baptisms in public places - my hubby even being baptised in the local swimming pool!
We can openly buy Bibles and worship together in our local fellowships instead of hiding in underground churches, we can download so many Christian articles and studies over the internet, we can run Christian holiday camps...
Compared to genuine persecution in other countries we still do have our freedom and a lot to thank God for!
In order to preach or hold any type of event in public you have to notify and obtain permission from local authorities first.
I'd agree that we must follow any law pertaining to where and when it is permissible to speak in public. However, unless the article is purposefully misleading, this is not why this man was arrested. This man was arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin. Could be there is more to the story, but if this is the only reason he was arrested I think the Church in the UK better prepare themselves.
There is footage on youtube of a pastor being arrested at some sort of border patrol check point in Arizona that would be an example of what you are talking about. We are told to render unto Caesar what is Caesars until we are told or forced to do things contrary to the Word, also until we are prevented from doing Godly things, such as assembling peacefully for worship, or speaking out against sin.
hoohoou took the words out of my keyboard.
Hi brethren,
I've thought a lot about this, as I've evangelised on the streets before now.
The Bible doesn't explicitly name homosexuality - it describes it. I believe this is an approach inspired by the Holy Spirit, because the pattern of behaviour, on a continuum, opens the person to the unclean spirits which are extremely binding. No-one is born 'homosexual', and even if they are hermaphrodite (a different discussion really), they tend to have normal sexual urges according to their chromosomal tendancy - as long as they are en-gendered (cultivated) in that direction also, by those who bring them up.
Again referring to the Bible, the main label under which homosexual behaviour falls, is idolatry. As such, it is very easy to quote both Old and New Testament scriptures (esp Lev 18 for a clear description following on from the initial verses of the chapter) eg 1 John 5:21, 'flee idolatry', 'flee fornication' (ie all kinds of sexual perversion), and verses about coveteousness, which Paul calls 'idolatry'. For anyone who has the opportunity to talk privately with a homosexual, there is plenty which applies to all of us, under the banner of idolatry and fornication, from which to refrain as a sign of the change in our hearts which faith in Jesus Christ has made.
I am very much in favour of telling people God can deliver them from every form of spiritual oppression. In Rom 1, it is clear from the Greek, that this is something which comes upon a person from the outside, initially, (the particular word for 'affection'), like any other temptation to any of us. I believe this is the core of the gospel to homosexuals, and we should not be afraid of offering to them a very positive HOPE IN CHRIST JESUS, for a life of natural fulfilment under God's order, giving pure pleasure to both they themselves, and God.
There is absolutely no need to preach against particular sins, unless a word of knowledge is in operation upon an individual(s). Most if not all know they are sinning, the law is there. Some have a seared conscience but that is talking about another class of "once" enlightened people. But most immoral people know they are in sin. The answer for them is the gospel. The gospel is what Christ has done on the cross in paying for the redemption of mankind through the shed blood of Jesus.
To stand there with righteous indignation because personally we hate a particular sin or all sins is presenting a gospel through anger, however, even in this the gospel is being presented, but it's not the perfect way the Father would have it displayed.
We only need to name sin within the Church for those who think they are "getting away with it". Paul's letters were to the Churches not to the sinner. And to the religious groups to them they need condemnation so that they can be brought down low so they may learn humility.
Mercy to sinners, correction to saints.
snufalapagus:
I'm afraid you are incorrect when you say:
"There is absolutely no need to preach against particular sins, unless a word of knowledge is in operation upon an individual(s)."
I would be interested in seeing a couple of bible references to substantiate this assumption. Secondly, you say that:
"Most if not all know they are sinning. . ."
This is at best an incomplete statement. Yes, sinners generally know what is right and wrong because of the inward witness of the conscience. However, it is clear from the holy scriptures that that isn't enough. The righteousness of God through the law of God (the outward witness) needs to be pressed upon the sinner's conscience in order for him to see that he/she is not only a sinner, but a great sinner indeed!! That sin may appear to be exceeding sinful. Lost men and women need to know that their sins are not just the natural impulses, and inclinations of our humanity; Sin is the braking of the law of Almight God. It is rebellion and enmity against God. Oftentimes sinners will extenuate their sinful behavior, and sport themselves into thinking that sin "isn't all that bad; certainly not deserving of eternal damnation." This is why the works of the flesh in PARTICULAR are addressed in the holy scriptures, and you will not find a gospel preacher in holy writ that did not do so.
The conscience is but a partial witness. In order for the conscience too function at full capacity, the Law of God through the preaching of the gospel needs to prick and pierce the consciences of men. For further study, let me suggest Romans chapter one and Galatians chapter five.
You are correct when you said Paul's letters were to the Churches, but the letters though to the Churches wasn't only about the Churches. Both the state of the saved, and the lost are clearly addressed in the bible. You also mentioned:
"To stand there with righteous indignation because personally we hate a particular sin or all sins is presenting a gospel through anger, however, even in this the gospel is being presented, but it's not the perfect way the Father would have it displayed."
I think I know what you are saying here, and if I am right, I do agree to a certain extent. Love should be our motivation for proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. First, love for God, and secondly, love for man. Incidently, there is also another motivation for proclaiming the gospel and that is, FEAR.
I want to also say that there is nothing wrong with RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION. The operative word being, "RIGHTEOUS." Is there anything you can think of that should anger God's people? Is God angery at anything, or anyone? There is cause for righteous indignation. One thing is for sure; the closer we live to God, we will find ourselves loving what God loves, and hating what God hates.
The righteousness of God through the law of God (the outward witness) needs to be pressed upon the sinner's conscience in order for him to see that he/she is not only a sinner,
I completely agree with you. However, that is not our duty to press that upon the sinner, it's the work of the holy Ghost.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
"The Lord working with them".
The message of the gospel is love, when the spirit of the word of truth is being preached the Lord is working in the hearts of men convicting the world of sin and convincing them that they need a remedy for their sin, Jesus Christ.
Paul before his conversion was being convicted by Jesus. There is no doubt in my mind that while he was dragging Christians from their homes and persecuting believers, some of them would have been ministering to him while he was doing this to them. Their words pierced his soul to which Jesus said, "It is hard for you to kick against the pricks".
Is God angry at anything, or anyone?
Good Question.
God's ways are difficult to define.
Take this wonderful gospel for example. I can barely wrap my mind around it, our justification is by faith. It doesn't matter what I've done, I am justified because I put my trust in Jesus Christ. This goes totally against the law. The law says that I must die, but faith in Jesus says, I paid his debt.
Is God angry at anyone?
Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute iniquity.
God is angry at the wicked everyday.
A wicked person is a Pharisee. They know the way, but bar anyone from getting in. A wicked person is not Saddam Hussian or Ben Laden. They are just sinners. For God to be angry at these men while their understanding is darkened and have no light would be out of character for God. But the Pharisee knows, and therefore will do everything in his power to make sure you and I don't see the light. The Catholic Church is a wicked organization because it knows the way, it knows what the bible says, but prefers to walk in darkness even though it think it's walking in the light. And they hold the masses in their sway. Her daughters take on some light, but are just as wicked as the Mother.
Yes, there are somethings that God is angry at.
In Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,
Im going to be blunt,
Stop fearing man, stop worrying if Man is going to give mouthpeices of God permission to speak or not. Gee, if Jesus had to get permission to speak from the sanhedrin I guess we wouldnt have christianity today would we. Christianity is offensive to people and it brings a sword. Not Peace, never has and will not bring peace, learn your bible.
Were not going to save souls by being politically correct, but spirit led, and it could get you arrested, and percuted.
In china its illegal to preach the gospel. So what. Christian ministers get arrested in china every day for doing it, does that make them law breakers.
There are alot of churches today that are so liberal that they promote homosexuality and it needs to be brought out in the open that it is a sin and God isnt going to wink at it. If that means being a rogue by opening your mouth and telling the truth and getting arrested, so be it.
But to be quite just so you can be law abiding and being sensitive to peoples feelings seems ludracis to me.
People who live in sin and continue in it will not escape judgment and will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
So if God is leading someone to speak out about some sins who are we to monday morning quarterback what they say.
Truth is truth and if you dont like the delivery tuff boogers. thats why they killed Jesus to.
People better decide who's side their on and get on it.
As for the sin of homosexuality, God has winked at it at the cross, sin is not the issue, rejection of God's Son is.There are a lot of churches today that are so liberal that they promote homosexuality and it needs to be brought out in the open that it is a sin and God isn't going to wink at it
I know I am going to get a lot of flack for saying that, but sin is really not the issue here. Sin has been dealt with, Christ has cleansed humanity with His blood "once for all". Why do you think Paul asked the question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?".
Of course we know that his answer was "God Forbid", but consider the question first and why he said it. Sin increases the grace of God in our midst. For where sin aboundeth, Grace much more aboundeth. But we who are dead to sin, should not live any longer therein.
Therefore, sin is not the issue.
I know that none of you are understanding any of this, which is really a shame, but in the Old Testament, Sin is what was separating God from man, in the New Testament God pulled man to Himself through the death of Jesus who "taketh away the sin of the world". The enmity was removed thus opening the door for God to come in. Jesus over came it. And has transferred that to us and has made us "more than a conqueror" who didn't do anything in the battle to obtain it.
We are so sin conscience that we think that everyone needs to know that they are sinning. When I put my hand in my Mothers purse to take money out of it, I knew that I was doing wrong. My conscience was telling me that this was wrong. No one had to point it out. Most homosexuals know within themselves that something is wrong, but lust has a way of convincing them that what they are "feeling" is right. Conviction breaks down all walls and reveals to the person that Jesus is the answer. When He is revealed, there can be only two reactions, one cut to the heart and repent. and two, cut to the heart and hate.
A friend of mine was speaking about the love of God in the square and there was a homosexual couple overhearing him and one of them was moved to tears and his dominant partner seeing what was going on, ushered him away. God dropped a seed in that man. God doesn't need our pointy finger to convict men of their sin, He can do it Himself, all we've done is made a mess out of it. While we have given up on people because they wouldn't react to our fire and brimstone preaching, God hasn't!!
The heart of God yearns for man as a lover yearns for his mate. Oh to be filled with the love of God to be saturated in love. To know the love of God that passeth knowledge.
Just words I know, but that word "know" means a lot more to me.
Snuf writes.......
"I know that none of you are understanding any of this, which is really a shame"
Wow Snuff, really? That is quite an indictment , you must be quite a lonely man :) .........brother Frank
snufalapagus, you said,
I know that none of you are understanding any of this, which is really a shame, but in the Old Testament, Sin is what was separating God from man, in the New Testament God pulled man to Himself through the death of Jesus who "taketh away the sin of the world". The enmity was removed thus opening the door for God to come in.
I know what you are saying and would agree to a point. I think the problem is that we get so wrapped around one way of preaching or witnessing or whatever that we ignore the other ways. I think it was Poet who said earlier in the thread that we need to be spirit led. That's the key. The Holy Spirit may lead us to preach holiness, and He may lead us to preach love. Always He will lead us in the correct approach. His word does not return void.
However, I would disagree with your assertion that the enmity was removed. The word says that friendship with the world is enmity towards God. When we are saved, having repented of our friendship and worship of the things of this world, yes. But there is much enmity when we are living in sin.
Could be I'm being nit-picky. I think something we're all going to find out very soon is that it doesn't matter what approach we have we are going to meet with opposition to the Word. It is foolishness to those who are perishing, even if we preach love.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Did Jesus ever go about preaching against a particular sin to the crowds?
Did Jesus ever go about preaching against a particular sin to the crowds?
John 3:18-19
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28, Matthew 5:32, Matthew 5:34, and so on. Again, I think the issue is that we get stuck on one side or the other instead of being empty vessels before the Lord and allowing Him to fill us with what He wants for a particular time. To walk in the Light and in the Truth is to walk a very fine line. The distance we must travel to be Pharisaical or veering off into an "easy believe-ism" is about as far as it takes to think WE know the answer.
Matthew 10:34
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
We must be very careful in trying to shove God in a corner. God is bigger even than our interpretation of scripture. God's Word is all things to all people, whenever they need what it can offer, whether peace or a sword. You can't just pin it down to the floor and say that it's one way or another. The moment you think it's love and peace you read Revelation. The moment you think God is an angry tyrant He sends Jesus to die for such a worm as I.
Hoo says ...... "God is bigger even than our interpretation of scripture. God's Word is all things to all people, whenever they need what it can offer, whether peace or a sword. You can't just pin it down to the floor and say that it's one way or another. The moment you think it's love and peace you read Revelation. The moment you think God is an angry tyrant He sends Jesus to die for such a worm as I."
Great word brother..........brother Frank
Hi Linda.
You gotta be very careful with scripture. I don't think you did it intentionally but you totally mis-quoated that scripture, and used it out of it's context. John 3: 17, is not talking about not preaching agains people's sins. It's talking about man's fallen condition, read v/18, that men were already condemed before Christ came. That His mission wasn't to condemn for they were ALREADY condemend but instead He came to save! To seek and save the lost. It is biblical to preach against people's sins. It's not biblical to not do so.
Shawn was simply obeying clear scripture, in love but not compromising on the truth.
Here's some clear scripture:
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; PREACH the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
(2Ti 4:1-2)
And also look here:
"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness" 2Tim 3:16
We can't pick and choose what scriptures to use, or tickle people's ears. It says that ALL scripture is profitable. While I was a Catholic, I thank God that someone showed me Ex. 20:4, they preached against my idolatry. I thank God that this young man valued more what God's word said, than my hurt feelings. We are to be God pleasers not men pleasers.
I will leave you with the words of our blessed Savior Jesus Christ, was this unloving?
But WOE unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. WOE unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GREATER DAMNATION. WOE unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. WOE unto you, YE BLIND GUIDES, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! YE FOOLS AND BLIND: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. YE FOOLS AND BLIND: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. WOE unto you, scribes and Pharisees, HIPOCRITES! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. YE BLIND GUIDES, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. WOE UNTO YOU, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. THOU BLIND Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. WOE UNTO YOU, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but WITHIN YE ARE FULL OF HYPOCRISY AND INIQUITY. WOE UNTO YOU, scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. YE SERPENTS, YE GENERATION OF VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mat 23:13-33)
~Lina Urban
www.puregospeltruth.com
Snuf writes....... "I know that none of you are understanding any of this, which is really a shame" Wow Snuff, really? That is quite an indictment , you must be quite a lonely man :) .........brother Frank
LOL, not at all. I only wrote that because all I get is rebuttals, so I throw that in just for good measure. I am very aware that people are, but with all these "but's" or accusations, I had to do something. 'But' (see I am doing it too) I laughed with what you wrote Frank, very nice. :o)
However, I would disagree with your assertion that the enmity was removed. The word says that friendship with the world is enmity towards God. When we are saved, having repented of our friendship and worship of the things of this world, yes. But there is much enmity when we are living in sin.
Thanks hoohoou for your words, very good.
We need to balance that which Paul said and what Jesus said.
Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
I will admit I have no understanding on what Jesus was saying especially the latter part of the 9th verse. I could use the internet to find out or Matthew Henry, but I prefer a revelation instead, so If any of you have revelation on this verse, please feel free to share it.
Ahhhh humility is as refreshing as Ice cold lemonade.
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