The great transgression - What does it look like?

Hello friends,

There's a situation that is going on with an associate, and it prompts me to ask questions.

I've done a lot of research on the unforgiveable sin in Matthew 12:31. I've come to the conclusion that if you can still trust on the blood of Christ, and that you your life is bearing godly fruit, then it's certain evidence that you have NOT done it.

But then, what DOES it look like? How can you tell that someone has committed it? Do they stop seeking salvation and not try? Do they repent and weep with great sincerity, but only because they want out of hell? Do they live in an active defiance of God? For anyone who has any experience, just what does it look like?

There are particular details I want to discuss but I don't want to share them publicly. If anyone wants to PM me for discussion I'm open to that, though I want to do more discussion on this thread too.

Thanks everyone. Ι'm eager to hear what you might have to share.

Αναστασις

It does mean that the person who does such will not be forgiven of this one thing done. To not be forgiven says nothing of judgement or punishment (so don't speculate).

I admit, I have never heard this position taken before. I can understand that it could mean not forgiven in the sense of positional forgiveness (as opposed to judicial forgiveness), though for my own knowing, how do you reconcile this with Mark 3:29 calling it an "eternal sin?"

Do you mean in the sense that it's not that the sin cannot be judicially forgiven (atoned by the blood), but that such a person will never seek forgiveness, and therefore never be forgiven? That would make sense.

Then that would answer the question that a person who committed it could never have a consciousness of it and at the same time want forgiveness for it.

I've heard stories about people who have supposedly committed this sin. They knew that they have, and that all drawing of the Spirit that is needed for leading to repentance had ceased. I know in two of the stories, the subjects never even attempted repentance (or at least in one of them). I would imagine that if it's in the hands of the Holy Spirit to convict a person, then the person, by the fact of not having the drawing of the Spirit, would never repent. The desire of repentance would then be the sign that they have not committed the sin.

I admit, I have never heard this position taken before. I can understand that it could mean not forgiven in the sense of positional forgiveness (as opposed to judicial forgiveness), though for my own knowing, how do you reconcile this with Mark 3:29 calling it an "eternal sin?"

There is an important point I think we need to make in regards to the nature of this sin. The context shows what they were doing:

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. (Mark 3:22)

They were attributing the working of God to satan. When a person sees God at work (the finger of God) and they refuse to acknowledge it as God they are moving in the same error we read about in Romans 1:21;

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

They would not acknowledge God. They saw the clear evidence and would not sign-off that it was in fact God. This is very dangerous because the heart becomes hardened towards God. Keep in mind that faith is response to grace; that is, faith is right response to revelation. (R.B) When God reveals Himself and the person refuses to acknowledge that the revelation is of God they cannot exercise faith.

What is worse is that these men were actually saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit, when the spirit He had was the Holy Spirit. I am afraid we risk losing the severity of this passage in modern times. When God says a person is in danger of hell fire we ought to take notice. They were saying that Jesus was moving in the demonic and that put their souls at risk. Now I'm not sure what Saul of Tarsus was doing when he caused people to blaspheme:

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. (I Timothy 1:13)

If Saul was a typical Pharisee he would have likely suggested that there was a demonic source for the miracles of Christ and the Apostles (that none could deny were happening). Yet there is an out here... I did it ignorantly in unbelief. Saul was doing what his mentors were doing. He was probably repeating statements he had heard in ignorance and unbelief. So he obtained mercy. This is why we have to be very careful not to suggest that folk are moving in the demonic that are truly moving in the Holy Spirit. Not only does one risk their own damnation, but they also risk the damnation of those that follow their example. Fortunately for Saul he found out before it was too late. Many of his peers were not so fortunate. They fled to Yavneh and essentially continued the practice.

Matthew 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

To me this has always made sense in a very simple way, taking any one saying this as honest unbelievers: people are born-again [essential in salvation/entering into the kingdom of God, John 3] OF THE SPIRIT; how could the power of Satin bring anyone into the Kingdom of God [a reverse truth of the divided house] or convict one of sin, righteousness and judgment to come; only the power of the Holy Spirit can bring in creation. The Way is cut off. The root MUST be good for the fruit to be. Holy Spirit power comes THROUGH Him, the words that He spoke that healed (vrs. 22 here).

If they did not know Him to be the Son of God, and spoke about the Son of man (their view as an ordinary man and not the son of David, candidate for King), that could be forgiven with revelation. (1 Tim.1: 13 ?)

There are hundreds of elaborations on this: John 9:39-41 is an interesting one regarding dishonest ones. I am not certain of the state of these in Matthew 12. He does not say "you" to them. More like a warning and exhortation to "made the tree good, seeing the good fruit."

However I am, so far, persuaded that NO BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER can commit this. So it is humorous to me when false teachers/anyone attempts to threaten (really just an attempt to silence) a believer with this text. It is usually used when the false one is out of words. Will an honest believer, in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit, stand before a Holy God in unrighteousness/outside of the righteousness of Christ? What a contra-diction. That is probably something that lead you to "if you can still trust on the blood of Christ, and that you your life is bearing godly fruit, then it's certain evidence that you have NOT done it." It is always good to exam ourself to see if we are in the faith (ask God to search us), and look at/for fruit.

Sorry it took so long to say something "that makes sense in a simple way." Hope no side-tracking into "loosing salvation", removing of seals.

I am understanding you. I have a keen interest in the ways of God as people come into the knowledge of their new birth (the events and process).

If Jesus were not speaking to Peter, this is an example of what Penn-Lewis mentioned, during times of revelation/revival. Was Peter born again then? He certainly believed, by revelation as Jesus taught Him and others. He did not make the error of others (John 8: 28-59) who "heard and believed on Him" (even the ego eimi!! in 8:28), but did not continue in His word as is needed to be a disciple. Peter continued.

This passage in John 8 is wonderful in showing the death of self (their Jewish flesh) they could not suffer then.

OK I am way too stimulated by important subjects. :D goodnight at 1:00 AM

However I am, so far, persuaded that NO BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER can commit this. So it is humorous to me when false teachers/anyone attempts to threaten (really just an attempt to silence) a believer with this text.

To be consistent with this reasoning you must also reject the notion that any Born Again believer could be moving in the demonic; i.e. possessed with a demon enabling one to use any of the various gifts.

BTW, the threat is not mine it is the Lord's. I did not author the text, I am merely observing it. If a person misjudges a matter they are moving in ignorance a distinction always made when dealing with transgressions of law and principals. Paul was acting in ignorance- the pharisees were not.

I appreciate all the replies to the thread, thank you friends :)

The main question I was looking to answer is if a person could commit this sin yet have any kind of real repentance. On all hands, the answer seems obvious.

Robert, I do think you are right that we need to be careful that we do not, at the least, grieve the Spirit by accusing Him of the demonic, and that every true believer should take those passages as seriously as any unbeliever.

I'm thinking also of what Jesus said: "My sheep know my voice." The goats may smack head all day long with God regardless the insight they've been given and the greatness of their revelation, but a sheep's deeper knowledge and innate knowing of the voice of God will not allow him to resist the Spirit when he knows it to truly be working. He can't because he is born of God, with the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of Him, and for the Spirit to resist the Spirit would be just as ridiculous.

Thank you everyone :)

Another reference to a sin that has no pardon is in Revelations:-

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11

Since Jesus said that any sin other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could be forgiven, I think worshipping the beast and accepting his mark involves the same sin.

PassingThru