Doctrine of Trinity

Sounds like you are dealing with JW's (or possibly??? (WW)COG???).

It's suggested you get a full understanding of Shekinah (from O.T.)- the presence of God dwelling with man, which some call spirit. This could be the originations of their thought.

Google threads on trinity here on SI, and you will find my stance. I do not believe the Spirit of God is a distinctly different person yet one with the Father and the Son.

The theory of the trinity was invented by the Roman Catholic Church through the work of two theologians, (Tertullian and Origen,) in attempts to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans, specifically, the worshippers of Mithras (the sun), (as well as changing the day of worship from Sabbath to SUNday instead).

(see: the Catholic Encyclopedia)

I believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit, our Advocate (aka:comforter) and mediates between us and our Heavenly Father.

The belief that the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ limits us in transforming into His image, from glory to glory.

II Cor. 3:17,18

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~

The concept of the trinity was not "invented" by the Roman Catholic church. I'm really not sure where this information comes from. Now the word trinity might have been coined later by the same men, but it was only a word to put a tag on what the Bible states. Why does the Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as a He?

If Jesus separates the two, why would we try to combine them?
Mathew 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

If it's just Jesus' Spirit, why on earth would Christ make any sort of distinction?

And in places like John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Why again, does he refer to him as He? Why not just say I?

The belief that the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ limits us in transforming into His image, from glory to glory.

No, what this line of thinking actually does, is rob from the ministry that Christ had while on earth, and the example that He laid out for us. Did He act by His own spirit and power while in the form of a servant on earth? His own words would disagree with that. This thought argues against Scripture and Biblical logic.

The concept of the Trinity has been prevalent throughout the old testament as well. In Hebrew there is no word for god. There's a word for gods, but not god. The Shema Yisrael is more or less literally rendered "Hear O Israel, the Lord your Gods is one(ness). I am not advocation three separate god's or anything like that. I'm just saying what the Bible states. Three person's one being. Study it yourself. Find a Jewish Christian versed in Hebrew to explain it to you.

I haven't seen KingJimmy on for a bit, but months (or maybe even a year or so) ago he recommended a sermon by Art Katz talking about the doctrine of the trinity being an exceptionally valuable tool when witnessing to unbelieving Jews. Jimmy, I didn't get a chance to listen to that one, but if you still remember which sermon that is, and read this thread, could you perhaps post it, or PM it to me? Or if anyone else is familiar with what I'm looking for, please share.
Thanks. -Grant

Thank you SO much. I'm looking forward to giving this one a listen when I get back from school tonight.

Since Christ's Holy Spirit is not a distinct and seperate person from Christ himself, how can you prove the concept was not invented as a Catholic doctrine until the third century. (This is historical fact.)

The word 'Holy' is an adjective.

The word 'Spirit' is an impersonal noun.

God says, "my people shall know my name."

If the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate person of the trinity, either you are not his people or this title refers to Jesus Christ.

Since you are (a part of) his people, tell me the name of the Holy Spirit apart from Christ?

It's thought that alot of this confusion could be resolved if one will understand spirit is not limited to any singular time, place, or person.

How about, rather than thinking of God as a trinity,
think of God as Decanity:

1. The Father |
2. The Son } Mt. 28:19
3. The Holy Spirit |
and
4. The seven spirits of God | Rev. 5:6

This is where Occidental 'Unbiblical' logic leads you.

Grant,

Answer these two questions:

1. What is the name of the Holy Spirit?
2. Why cannot God be considered a decanity rahter than a trinity?

Then, after this, you will recieve more questions to answer, since you are so sure that the Holy Spirit is not the spirit of Jesus Christ himself -(though the first scripture quoted in my first post plainly states this fact).

I think you may have put your own foot in your own mouth.

I will respond no further until you answer me these two questions, as this post is in response to your debate.

-------------------

(you really should look at the Catholic encyclopedia for starters, or at least go back and search the few threads that have already responded to from here.

(If for nothing else, to see just what you are getting yourself into)

Further, you should look at the Hebrew Mss. ( Masoretic or any other), because apparently you don't understand what you think it says. It actually confirms my premise. There is nowhere in the whole Bible that it is stated that God is three persons.

People who say God is a trinity are first concieving that there is a trinity, then finding scriptures to confirm assumption(s).

The simple fact is, "God is Spirit."

Any argument (brought to this table) that represents man's reasoning need be considered with extreme prejudice if it is not specifically stated in the scriptures. Because of this, should you choose to debate this issue, any reasoning distinct from what the Bible says shall be stated to be "[DISREGARDED FOR THIS REASON:]".

There are three purposes in this:
1. to build an unshakeable foundation

2. i have no regard whatsoever for any person or concept standing against God's Word as revealed through the scriptures.

3. to prove that human invention(s) is/are limited, and thus inconclusive, as well as very far from perfect.
( Can you say: 'Cannon fodder' ? )
[ Rom. 3:3, 4 ]

Who is perfect?

The perfect example of the One who is Spirit filled is Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus came to earth in the form of a man, and abided by the limitations of man while on earth. Further, this explains why he often spoke in the third person in regards to many things, such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This answers your question of Jesus drawing a distinction.

This does not, as you state, "rob from the ministry that Christ had on earth" but, rather instead confirms it.

______________________________________________________________________
You sed:
'This thought argues against Scripture and Biblical logic.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Show where the thought argues against scripture for it does not.
2. There is no such thing as biblical logic as you understand it. One should not apply Occidental rhetorical logic (Greek methods) to Oriental (Hebraic) knowledge and understanding. (It can limit and pervert understanding.) Working Jewish Thematics into Western thought is just plain ignorant. The very definitions and meanings of words are quite contrary to each other.
______________________________________________________________________

This issue need be resolved once and for all.

Whether anybody else choses to obey God in this is not my concern. Until somebody shows a sound scriptural basis for 'the trinity' there never will be any compromise here.

(You think you are a bit upset? The Catholic theologians i have debated regarding this are red with rage.)

Brother,
Thank You for your time and attention in this.
Acts 20:32

Gregg

p.s. Why are people so adamant about things they think are true, yet have no scriptural basis to back it?

Those who participate (in the ways of) 'idolatry', whether they recognize it or not, tend to become like their 'stumbling block(s)': unable to truly think, hear, or speak.

To say something is gospel truth, then find scripture to prove it, rather than starting from the scriptures and through living it out coming to (wisdom, knowledge, then) understanding is idolatry. This is worshiping human idologies over God's Truth ( Jn. 14:6 )

p.s.s. It's hoped you or anybody else are well up to the task ahead, because this issue has been studied thoroughly after revelation was recieved and lived out regarding this very thing.

What can be shaken has come to it's end:
to the time to be torn down and crushed.
(How's that for a challenge?)

p.s.s.s. For your benefit and anyone else who dares chime in, it is suggested, to save yourself embarrassment, that you question everything you say before you put it to text and post it on this thread.

(Who knows, maybe i'll be the one embarrrassed; though this is seriously doubted.)

Phillip,

Through what you wrote, clearer light has come.

God bless you further, Brother.

In the Messianic Community i frequented, the Holy Spirit was usually referrred to as the "Ruach ha' Kodesh".

Now i'm thinking, why has that not been clear to you all this time greggy bouy?

*banging my head against the wall*

ok, i did not just stop banging my head only because it feels so good when i quit. It's because, when i get dumbed, then i smart."

CIAO!
g

How "fatal" is denial of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Wonderful Consuler, the Holy Spirit?

You know the answer to that question, and as far as the "consequences"?

maybe "unpardonable"...i'm not God, He will judge.

But it seems to me, so simple as to the Truth of the Triune God. witness Matthew 3:16-17

"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

in short, They are All there, and as far as these people...oh my brother, its as if you would be standing in the middle of some railroad tracks, and see a train 200 yards away, coming at you full steam, you wouldnt question, "maybe i should move aside?"

oh no, you would do it, with nary a thought, amen?

1. What is the name of the Holy Spirit? 2. Why cannot God be considered a decanity rahter than a trinity?

What was the name of Christ in the old Testament? What was the name of God before He revealed Himself as YHWH? Because someone is not given a specific name that we can call them we choose to deny their existence as an individual, when Christ Himself CLEARLY identifies Him as such. In Mathew 28:19 Jesus says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Father and Son are not names. They are now names that we refer to them as, yes, but here they're positional statements, not literally "names". The three compose The Name. The Lord your Gods is oneness. I AM. This talking in the third person about His other form idea is complete nonsense. You would HAVE to read that into the text to come to that conclusion. You talked about deceived people having preconceived ideas and bending scripture to a mans understanding, but I can't see how that differs from the way you view all of the Bibles references to the Holy Ghost. This "I won't answer your question until you answer mine," is just silly now, come on.
I'm not sure how the idea that the Holy Spirit can be viewed as some form or manifestation of Christ when we're presented with verses like John 11:51

Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

What Spirit inspires prophecy? Jesus was still a man at the time, and as you said, still bound by the limitations of a man, so I guess He wasn't in "Holy Spirit form" yet. Since you've claimed familiarity with the Hebrew way of thinking I'm quite sure you're aware of the Holy Spirit's role in the Old Testament and to whom the Spirit was given. So I need not go into the role of the high priest, the king, the judge, the prophet, etc. etc.

Also during Christs baptism when the Spirit descended on Him like a dove, in Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.

He was descending.... on..... Himself?

I honestly can't figure out where you're coming from in all of this. I really am not upset, I'm just concerned about error. I honestly don't care about how many Catholic theologians you've bested in arguments, or even if you tear me apart in some sort of argument. Even if you dazzle us with some fancy rhetorical whirlwind of an argument, make me look like a total buffoon, and everything in between, it won't validate your point against what the Bible says. Your challenge bleeds pride man. I really hate saying that, because I have pride in my own life that I'm having the Lord burn out of me. I'm not saying this looking down on you, I'm saying this as a person who shares the struggle, and wants it dead in my own life. We should both seek Christ to rid ourselves of this.(To be honest I've had to edit this post several times to strain out fleshly and prideful statements) But to make a blanket statement that myself or anyone else who dares disagree with your view on this will be embarrassed at your ability to crush us in a debate is conveyed in just a completely wrong spirit, man. Is that what we're here for?

I'm not sure how your Hebrew and Greek abilities are, but mine are non existent. However I've had the honor of sitting under, learning from, and conversing with those who are fluent in Hebrew and Greek. Natural Jews, completed Jews as Lysa put it in another thread, who look at it from the point of a Jew, and they were able to open up the Scriptures to me in a way that I lacked the ability to do for myself. These men would also defend the idea of the Holy Spirit being a distinct person in the Tri-Unity. They didn't have to resort to any sort of special "revelation". They would just say, "Here, this is what the text says, here's how a Jew would have written it, here's how a Jew would understand it. Here's exactly what it means." I would expect that they would probably know better than a non Jew when it comes to this. All this subjective revelation nonsense is no basis for any Biblical stance. The Mormons and the JW's are the kings of this type of revelation, and honestly their arguments are much more convincing than anything I've read in this thread so far.

To be quite honest I'm not terribly interested in continuing this "debate" as you put it. I don't feel like reading page after page and being prompted to continually respond. I know you're not going to change your stance, nor will I change mine. If you decide to notch your belt for a personal victory on this one feel free. I don't desire to win an argument with you or to make you appear foolish. If it looks like I'm just displaying cowardice and backing out, so be it. You're well set in your ways of thinking, and I'd be a fool to try and persuade you otherwise. I don't care to have the last word either. Feel free to rip me apart. -Grant

The time of Jesus' baptism is another where the Father is speaking from heaven as the Holy Spirit is descending as a dove.

There is an old thread 'godhead' (Please copy and paste the URL below). Ron Bailey (philologos) is a respected Bible teacher.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=7893&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

EDIT:
I would add that since a great deal of recorded human history in scripture had taken place before it was written down, God's nature as Elohim (plural of at least three) and as Spirit is His most original and defining revelation of Himself in Genesis 1.

Also Deu 6:4 : Hear, O Israel: YHVH our ELOHIYM is one YHVH: (Sacred Names Bible, available online.)

What did Paul say?

Lest i be exalted above measure, i was given a thorn in the flesh?

This cocky additude i held this morning was the result of head growing too big for my hat when last night in church, the brother who was speaking on Phillipians 2, God's revelation burst out in me while he was speaking.

Knowing that prophecy is subject to the spirit of the prophet, i just began to think, well God didn't tell me to say anything. Then i heard His voice saying, "why do you think i told you?"

The prideful attitude was there last night b4 revelation and me, thinking that it was better said later without interrupting the speaker.

Brother Bill stopped preaching while i was thinking this, as said, "i just feel that there is somebody here that has something further to share from the Word, some scriptures and according revelation related to what i have been teaching.

I thought maybe there was somebody else, so i sat and waited.

A sister in front of me, turned around and pointed me out, then said, "it is him."

When she turned and pointed to me, i saw fire in her eyes. That was not from her own self. It was more like a recognition when God is really ticked off with me. (Through the years, including this time, this same look in very godly people has come before me, inmy face, when i have been disobedient to God--once when i failed to lay hands on another for healing, when God had told me to do so immediately; once when i started getting all prideful when He gave me revelation previously: like the way i have been acting here recently, on this thread here; and, last night.

When she point at me, immediately i stood and spoke. After that the service ended in prayer, and fellow believers helped me just exalt myself that much more telling me how wonderful God has been to me in showing me so many things and on and on, and i began taking it on myself as though i were something special. (This is such a huge difference in me from just one week ago.)

Speaking of the thorn, oh, it's already begun, and i was asking up until last night just why? My wife and children have just been the tools towards this: discounting and discrediting and mocking and doing everything they can against my attitude,- (since the whole business surfaced two nights ago,) -to make me buckle down and do some major head shrinkage or cut it off.

This morning, after sending that first post (the second from me in this thread), the Spirit said, "you should not have done that. YOU DON'T REALIZE OF WHAT SPIRIT YOU NOW ARE."

I HAVE ALREADY REPENTED BUT THE CONVERSION PROCESS IN THIS HAS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING--> y-eraz (it seems). This has been going on for years, and more often than not, God has literally told me to "just shut up."... many times over. I finally broke down this morning and asked God to tear this satanic pride from me...rip it out at whatever cost. It's hurting bad already, at work at, home with family, and at play with friends.

My request is that all you guys, whoever you may be will read this and pray for me in this regard: Jer. 10:14, 23, 24.

In this we will be in total agreement.

i am wrong in this and my deepest desire is to serve God with clean hands and a pure heart.

Please do not disregard the message just because the messenger is not God.

Reading Matt's devotional thoughts this morning had me thinking after a time of repentance and refreshing from the Lord that i have not been loving my family like i should as God is love. My hardnosed stiffnecked stubborn attitude is reaping the results already.

Just when it's thought that snake of pride's head has been stomped on for the last time, it rears it's ugly head again. It's all me, my flesh, and I.

i was given the rest of the day off from work because my boss recognized my own distain for the way i have been of late. He saw my sorrow and i told him and others i was daily dealing with that i am sorry for the way i have been.

Now to you, i say i am sorry that i have been haughty and prideful in this thread. When i get like this, i always mistake my own displeasure for God's.

Who am i to judge Another's servant???

Thinking now, "take heed lest you fall" need remain at the forefront of everything i do from now on.

i have already fallen down many times, and though it's constantly prayed that He will strengthen me so that it be my last, i remain faulty, sinful, and chase the wind of my own desires and reap the whirlwind as a result.

In respect to all of this, and what God has told me relative to the preceeding, for the time being, i must bow out of any forum discussions.

It's time for more crucifixion.

God bless each and every one of you,
May His Shalom surround you,
Continue to walk in His grace
that goodness and mercy shall follow you
every day of your lives.

Broken to pieces already,
and i feel like crushing them all,
gregg
Acts 20:32

p.s.
Any commitments here shall be followed through with (Lord willing), though where i go and what i do from there is up to Him.

I may continue to read along (it's questionable presently), but i will only be signing in to check messages from time to time.

edited: misspellings and punctiuation